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Username Post: Please test your parking brake.        (Topic#37711)
bad_turbo 
Senior Member
Posts: 230
bad_turbo
Loc: socal
Reg: 03-21-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
06-29-03 08:03 AM - Post#253340    
    In response to jefro

I have an 01 and 02 3500 that I use to tow a 3-car trailer to haul vehicles in socal. Both of my trucks parking brakes stop working once a week. I use the brake alot and it is usually holding quite a bit of weight. The dealer fixed it under warranty the first few times but since I rack up alot of miles they stopped fixing it and said it was normal for the peddle to go to the floor. I haul alot of late model chevy trucks and probably 1 out of 50 had the parking brake working.



 
John 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 7196
John
Age: 49
Loc: Montgomery, AL
Reg: 01-15-02
Re: Please test your parking brake.
06-29-03 08:05 AM - Post#253341    
    In response to aservicemanager

In reply to:

I tried, NEVERMIND !!




You tried what?

1979 2wd K5 Blazer, 350/TH350
1985 4x4 M1009 K5 Blazer, 6.2/TH400


 
GM-Tech 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 4157
GM-Tech
Loc: South Florida
Reg: 06-27-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 07:11 AM - Post#253342    
    In response to tibbitts

In reply to:

We had the clip / premature wear tsb in hand, it was still not allowed as a warranty repair.




This is an issue with your dealer, not GM. GM gives Service Managers a ton of leeway. Cust. Assistance goes by what the SM tells them when/if they call the store. If the SM says he ain't covering it, they won't (can't?) force him to do so.

If your dealer wanted to do the repair under warranty, even if it was OVER the 3/36, he could, within certain time/mileage limits (usually 2/24 over the 3/36) unless he has a problem with his AVM (rep).

There are a lot of factors why the dealership won't fix it. Did you buy it there or elsewhere? Do you do your services there or do you go to Jiffy Lube? Did you bury them on the CSI survey last time you got one?

The old cliche, one hand washes the other, applies.

.


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 11:36 AM - Post#253343    
    In response to GM-Tech

Answers to questions:

1. dealership we bought truck from maintained not holding was "normal" so we did not even have them attempt repair and will never go back to them for anything ever. So this was another dealer.

2. Dealer that did the work claimed that they could tell from parts that we had abused parking brake (this is story from GM, not the dealer, who blames GM) - basically that we drove with it on. To clarify, after having it repaired we now drive with it on (i.e. use it as a service brake) every time we drive the truck, in an attempt to prolong its life by purging debris that experts here claim is causing the problem. Before repair we never drove with it on - I suppose a couple of feet once or twice, but you can't go any farther without chime going off! Original dealer did adjust brake (and thus inspected it, only way) when we bought truck, but noted on repair order that it was done only to "satisfy salesman" and had already been functioning normally (but worked after adjustment.)
3. Have only had truck 7 mo. only warranty service so far. I change oil myself.

I think the dealership needs to explain if they do not want to do warranty work, we will go elsewhere. Some dealers have told me that though it pays less they need it and so appreciate anybody bringing vehicle in. Others seem to not want the business. HOw are we supposed to know who is who if they won't tell us?

Turns out that as we suspected bbb arbitration does not apply so we are left to small claims as only alternative. We are looking into small claims now to see how much we will be on the hook for (besides the $57 filing fees) if we lose. Have no experience with small claims - don't know what counterclaims we would be liable for. Sad fact is we have a lot of time on our hands, would be an interesting experience to go to court if there isn't too much downside. Have not done so yet.

It is important for everybody to report this problem to NHTSA; if enough are reported they might take action. I suggest not filing on-line, the form is broken (at least in my browser) and will lose data. Use toll free 888-327-4236
instead, they will follow up with paperwork.

Paul



 
jefro 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 1121
jefro
Loc: Texas
Reg: 06-18-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 12:20 PM - Post#253344    
    In response to tibbitts

My wife took the truck into the dealer to have an inspection sticker put on.
See this. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/vi/inspection/rules_list.asp?itemdrop=Brake+-+Parking
It failed.
As a former fleet mechanic with the US Postal Service I can assure you I know about brakes. Stopping at mail box to mail box causes some wear and tear not seen in most users. The parking brake is a normal maint routine. Every Postal employee is supposed to set the parking brake upon leaving the vehicle.

Since the "Kit" with new shoes also comes with the modified clip why do you not know of this? How is it that so many dealers are installing the kits and still the so called techs know nothing of this. I am rather confused. If you asked any of the good techs on the floor they might show you the new clips and explain what is happening to the shoes when it fails.

I can assure you it doesn't take a dime to sue anyone. We just want a working truck, not any money. If some child gets run over that might be a bigger issue. There are plenty of lawyers and plenty of good and honest jurys that can tell the difference between a working parking brake and one that doesn't.



 
Anonymous 

Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 12:50 PM - Post#253345    
    In response to GM-Tech

GM-Tech wrote:

"There are a lot of factors why the dealership won't fix it. Did you buy it there or elsewhere? Do you do your services there or do you go to Jiffy Lube? Did you bury them on the CSI survey last time you got one?"

Not a very professional comment coming from a "GM Tech"... And one I am sure many possible GM buyers would love to hear.
"If any of the above are going to apply, don't buy a GM vehicle because the GM dealers don't have to perform warranty work unless "they" want to".

New roadside billboard:
"If you just moved to town with a GM vehicle under warranty, you best trade it in because we wont work on it unless purchased here"
"Also, if you want warranty work, don't plan on saving money on cyclical service items that you could easily perform yourself or have completed more conveniently elsewhere. You need to pay us for that first."

Furthermore, if your dealer is slammed on a customer satisfaction survey, its probably for a reason. Look at it in a professional manner and take it as some "needed" constructive criticism. Have some integrity and own up to the fact you didn't take care of a customers issue properly. Don't act like a 12 year old and refuse to work on his vehicle again because he/she may point out your weaknesses. You take that CSI, call the customer back in and fix the issue. I have filled out many, both good and bad, but only for the dealers that I thought it would make a difference or deserve the recognition. Besides, in the old days this "CSI" was the vehicle for dealerships to make changes, now days its only used for a dealer to look good in Mother GM's big database of dealerships. Christ, one of the dealers I use locally actually sends them out with the "highest" ranking for each question highlighted, to "assist" you in filling out the questionnaire. They could care less about their service "performance" only if the score is good...
I guess Gm/dealerships will have to start placing a disclaimer at the beginning of the CSI: "Be advised, if you speak your mind and or the truth you will be penalized on each and every future visit to this service department."

Bottom line, after working in a very large, professional service dept for 8 years (many years ago), and currently going through my own struggles with a 2001 Sub, it truly disturbs me on how little professionalism and knowledge dealerships display today.

An old "cliché" for dealerships and GM: "don't bite the hand that feeds you"

The problem today is the fact that GM knows that they can "bite" hands left and right and more just keep sticking their fingers in GM's mouth.

The only difference between ENRON and other large corporations? They got caught.

Smitty




 
John 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 7196
John
Age: 49
Loc: Montgomery, AL
Reg: 01-15-02
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 01:14 PM - Post#253346    
    In response to

KJSmitty - try this: I mentioned in a recent thread I thought I was going to have to sue the dealership. I had bought a new 99 Silverado reg cab 4.8/auto/4x4. They addressed my complaint when I threatened to sue. And once it was fixed, I immediately traded it for the 99 crew cab in my avatar.

The kicker? Banners in the service department boasting of their high rating. How'd they get that rating? If you let them keep and fill out the CSI, they'd give you a voucher for a free fill-up at the gas station on the corner. How many people fill those out anyway? So you can imagine how they got the high rating, trading them for a fill-up.

They haven't touched my crew cab, and I won't buy anything else from them.

1979 2wd K5 Blazer, 350/TH350
1985 4x4 M1009 K5 Blazer, 6.2/TH400


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 02:21 PM - Post#253347    
    In response to GM-Tech

I neglected to mention that we have been in to this servicing dealer for several items (4 times maybe) and have only had one telephone survey. Have never seen a written survey. We did not slam them and were pleased with the work they had done. It took them 2 times to fix one problem but it was a hard problem to figure out so we still felt they had done a good job.

I work in an industry where we have these surveys too and I am very aware that what businesses care about is the numbers they get (and can they advertise), not the actual customer satisfaction. Anyone who doesn't "cheat" enough to get perfect numbers will be punished in one way or another.

Paul



 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 03:27 PM - Post#253348    
    In response to jefro

Regarding the postal service vehicles, were they the same design with separate parking and service friction material? That is my main arguement - the parking shoes should only have to be used when the truck is already stopped so wear should be minimal.

I will say that when I had a standard and hand brake in my old front drive cars I'd sometimes use the handbrake to stop it when I was pulling into a parking place. Maybe people do stuff like that but it is extremely awkward to do that with the foot brake on the silverado, at least if you want to modulate the brake a little. Don't know anything about the postal vehicles, just asking.

Paul



 
Mike C 
Member
Posts: 30
Mike C
Loc: Chesapeake,VA
Reg: 06-19-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 06:28 PM - Post#253349    
    In response to tibbitts

The newer Postal vehicles aka FFV,s are based on the ford explorer chassis and drivetrain so they have seperate shoes for the parking brake.

2002 Z71 ECSB LT Westers massaged PCM Magnaflow cat-back


 
jgrimmy 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1705
jgrimmy
Age: 54
Loc: Fargo, ND
Reg: 05-30-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-01-03 09:08 PM - Post#253350    
    In response to

This post has gotten a bit off topic and some statements have been taken out of context:

In reply to:

"There are a lot of factors why the dealership won't fix it. Did you buy it there or elsewhere? Do you do your services there or do you go to Jiffy Lube? Did you bury them on the CSI survey last time you got one?"

Not a very professional comment coming from a "GM Tech"... And one I am sure many possible GM buyers would love to hear.
"If any of the above are going to apply, don't buy a GM vehicle because the GM dealers don't have to perform warranty work unless "they" want to".





This is not a statement of we will only do warranty work if we want to! GM sets the warranty rules not the dealership, as service managers we have some lattitude in approving repairs that are not technically warranty issues, as described by GM.

In reply to:

Furthermore, if your dealer is slammed on a customer satisfaction survey, its probably for a reason. Look at it in a professional manner and take it as some "needed" constructive criticism. Have some integrity and own up to the fact you didn't take care of a customers issue properly. Don't act like a 12 year old and refuse to work on his vehicle again because he/she may point out your weaknesses. You take that CSI, call the customer back in and fix the issue. I have filled out many, both good and bad, but only for the dealers that I thought it would make a difference or deserve the recognition. Besides, in the old days this "CSI" was the vehicle for dealerships to make changes, now days its only used for a dealer to look good in Mother GM's big database of dealerships. Christ, one of the dealers I use locally actually sends them out with the "highest" ranking for each question highlighted, to "assist" you in filling out the questionnaire. They could care less about their service "performance" only if the score is good...





A few points here, the CSI of a dealership effects the price they can buy vehicles from, and bonus's for the tech right up to the owner! Of course dealers care about customer satisfaction, do you think we are all a bunch of evil demons out to ruin your day?

I have personally gotten several negative CSI surveys from people I have bent over forwards for, I agree with you on one point, I called them back and learned from our conversations. Many people that are unhappy with the vehicle will slam the service dept on a CSI survey, even though the service dept did a great job. No service dept employee should take a hit for that!

Dealers do not send out the CSI surveys, GM does, you may recieve a letter from your dealer, but you will never get a survey that is highlighted, just not true.

In reply to:

I guess Gm/dealerships will have to start placing a disclaimer at the beginning of the CSI: "Be advised, if you speak your mind and or the truth you will be penalized on each and every future visit to this service department."





Again not true, please speak your mind! And let a dealer know what he is doing wrong or RIGHT! Be fair also and understand the dealer does not make the vehicle or the rules. To use a phrase I just saw somewhere " Don't act like a 12 year old" and try to get them back on a survey before giving the dealer a chance to solve your concern.

CSI is very very important, if a customer has purchased their vehicle from me, serviced it with me and given good CSI, I will take care of them outside of warranty within my power, good business.

If a customer has purchased their vehicle from a competitor, had it serviced elsewhere and banged me on CSI, I will do all the warranty work they are entitled to, I will not go beyond that, why would I? They are not going to be my customer! It's business gentlemen, the real world.

John
Service manager/advisor (former tech)
Chevy dealer



Project Rust Bucket, 57 2dr HT Updated 10/16/06 1955 210 4 dr sdn 1953 210 4 dr sdn 05 Z71 Silverado


 
MikeJ 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4173
MikeJ
Loc: Ashland, Ky
Reg: 08-21-02
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 02:53 AM - Post#253351    
    In response to jgrimmy

In reply to:

The Parking Brake MUST by state law hold the vehicle. It must hold if you have an AT or Standard tranny. It is a safety part




The safety inspection by the City Of Memphis requires the vehicle to be held by the parking brake while the vehicle is in gear and idling. For manual transmissions it must hold as the clutch is released to the point of stalling. Failure to hold the vehicle will cause a failure on the inspection and that results in no renewal for your plates.

Mike



 
57_sedan_delivery 
Old as Dirt Member
Posts: 6720

Loc: Hog Valley, Fla.
Reg: 02-19-01
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 02:55 AM - Post#253352    
    In response to jgrimmy

GM may think they set the warranty rules but in reality they don't always, the dealer does in many places. In 1996 I lived between two small towns that each had a Chevy dealership and I went to both looking for a new truck. Dealership in town S had $2K 'additional dealer profit' added to each truck, the one in town H did not. Neither place had what I wanted so when I was down in the valley (4 hrs away) visiting my son I stopped at the dealer I used to work for and found what I was looking for and bought it. About six months later I took the truck to the dealer in town S and they refused to do the work as I didn't buy it from them. When I asked about the supposed GM warranty where any dealer would work on it they said they didn't care, this was the rules of the owner. Never went back to them again.

You are right about the service manager having lattitude in approving repairs and I have found some more willing to work with the customer than others. Those are the ones that get my business. Not saying I'm trying to get non warranty items fixed for free, just get warranty issues done.

Mike W.

Founding father Desert Classic Chevys in Phoenix, Az.

1957 sedan delivery 454 TH400
1956 windowed sedan delivery US Dept of Ag car
1956 Chevy 3100 US Navy pickup
1959 rare GMC 100 fleet option 100 pickup


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 06:40 AM - Post#253353    
    In response to jgrimmy

GM has refused to provide the written procedure for determining that "abuse", not the design, causes the "premature wear". If they have determined that the clip or other design flaw results, for example, in a certain percentage of wear on a certain part of the shoe or something, they need to put that in the TSB so there will be no discretion in who gets it covered and who does not. When the dealer just makes a statement (to GM not to me) that I have been abusing the brakes when I know I have not, that bothers me. If they show me the shoes and a document from GM that explains how to determine whether wear was caused by the clip or abuse or whatever, then my issue is with GM not the dealer. As it is the dealer blames GM, GM blames the dealer, and nobody puts anything in writing. The customer shouldn't have to know who is responsible for making warranty coverage determinations under each possible set of circumstances. The warranty comes from GM so I expect it to be an issue between GM and me.

About buying a truck at the servicing dealer, that makes no sense to me. We looked in a wide geographic radius and found ONE used truck with the combination of options we wanted and bought that truck. I expect that a dealer might give preference to someone who bought a truck from them, but that is why we don't complain about having to leave the truck for several days or a week every time we take it to be fixed for even minor problems. I am not a car dealer and don't know about their business, but in my business you are lucky to have somewhat lower-rate "fill in" work to do when you otherwise would have employees sitting around costing you money and not generating any income at all. If warranty work pays less then I think it would fit into that category, but please correct me if that is not the case. Dealers can't expect us to understand how their business works if they don't tell us.

Paul



 
Anonymous 

Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 08:20 AM - Post#253354    
    In response to Mr_Goodwrench

The Porsche 944 that I had did have the same problem. The Parking Brake wouldnt hold the car at all, and you do not get the same confidence in the car parked with it in gear. The problem with the 944 was that it had worn Parking Brake Shoes. My uncle who formerly drove the car, sometimes drove with it on, and when we got it, the Parking Brake never worked, until we replaced the shoes and readjusted the cable.

The reason im saying this is because the Porsche had 4 wheel Discs, and so do the 99-03 Silverados. I would get the shoes checked, and if they are wearing too quickly, readjust the parking brake cable. Somehow there is some pressure put on the shoes, causing them to wear.

The Parking Brake is made to help hold the vehicle when it is PARKED. As Mr_Goodwrench said, it is not intended to bring the vehicle to a stop from high speeds. Sure you can use it to try, and I will say that again, TRY to bring the vehicle to a stop if your main brakes fail, which you shouldnt need to do if you keep on regular maintence on your vehicle. It is no longer intended as an Emergency Brake. And it goes the same on my truck.



 
jgrimmy 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1705
jgrimmy
Age: 54
Loc: Fargo, ND
Reg: 05-30-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 08:36 AM - Post#253355    
    In response to tibbitts

Allow me to clarify A couple things that I may not have made clear.

Under your 3 year 36,000 warranty, recalls and special policies the dealer has a contratual legal obligation to perform necassary warranty work on your vehicle regardless of where it was purchased. A common mis-conception is dealers do not want to do warranty work. Of course we do, we are paid by GM for these repairs albeit at a lower rate.

If I make a decision to cover an item or repair out of warranty, over 3/36 this is commonly called GOODWILL, I must be able to back it up to my boss the AGM, if he disagrees guess who has to pay for it! Not GM. If the customer has had a record of bad CSI surveys I would be insane to expose myself to the likelihood of generating a negative CSI by performing warranty work after his warranty is up.

One other thing and I'll shut up, there may be some confusion about TSB's. These are Technical Service Bulletins, not recalls or extended warranty. They are only there to help techs diagnose and repair problems.

John
Service manager/advisor
Chevy dealer

Project Rust Bucket, 57 2dr HT Updated 10/16/06 1955 210 4 dr sdn 1953 210 4 dr sdn 05 Z71 Silverado


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 08:58 AM - Post#253356    
    In response to jgrimmy

We at least are not asking to cover anything out of warranty. A GM Certified used vehicle has a 3mo 3k extension to the 36/36, which we understand has similar terms and our vehicle was serviced for parking brake complaints first at 29k/31mo and again at 37k/38mo.

Similarly we brought our truck (before 36k) in with a complaint that when we first towed a trailer (4500lbs) with our truck we experienced a shake in the driveline when accelerating from a stop. "No Trouble Found", but nobody tried it with a heavy load (which is the only time it occurs. In any case, we later find TSB describing this condition. We have asked GM why this does not apply to our VIN (wrong year, part #s, something), still waiting for response.

I would prefer not to have to drive to library and look up TSBs, but once I find a TSB has applied to a problem I have but not been cited by dealer, eveything else gets suspect and you start reading every TSB. And yes, the possibility then exists that you will then find "symptoms" that you otherwise would not have noticed. But once something is missed the owner has to assume other things can be missed too and thus take a very aggressive approach to seeking service described by TSB while warranty is in effect.

Some time ago we took Malibu to dealer under 36/36 to fix noise in passenger seat. They worked on it twice, never fixed, but replaced parts. While researching truck TSBs I looked up Malibu too and sure enough there is TSB describing exact problem with relatively simple fix dealer did not try.

These incidents, taken together, establish in our mind a pattern that the customers, not dealers, are now responsible for researching and advocating for service under TSBs.

I think if GM is declaring "abuse" to be the reason for not covering items they need to provide the written guidelines they used for determining that abuse occurred. Otherwise GM will just declare "abuse" for everything and not be responsible for any warranty repairs ever.

Paul




 
jgrimmy 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1705
jgrimmy
Age: 54
Loc: Fargo, ND
Reg: 05-30-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 09:29 AM - Post#253357    
    In response to tibbitts

Paul,
I agree with everything you said, I make it very clear to my techs that they MUST check for bulletins on vehicles exhibiting unusual or difficult problems. It is not the customers responsibility.

There is no info on your location in your info stuff, where are you located? I'm not sure I can help at all but I would be willing to try.

John
Service manager/advisor
Chevy dealer

Project Rust Bucket, 57 2dr HT Updated 10/16/06 1955 210 4 dr sdn 1953 210 4 dr sdn 05 Z71 Silverado


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 10:53 AM - Post#253358    
    In response to jgrimmy

John,

Thanks but we are from OK. Warranty only goes to 7/10/03, 1600 miles from now. Next week we are taking the truck and trailer up to Detroit because I have work there 7/14. Nope, not working at GM ;-)

I have sent email appeal to GM regarding the driveline shudder TSB so I think it's recorded that I complained during warranty (also complained to dealer about shudder 2/17/03) so I think we can battle on on that front even after warranty.

In fairness this dealer has found & fixed a couple problems which I have not found in TSBs and could not fix myself (despite a LOT of trying!), so I am not being entirely critical of them. They take the truck in right away and get it back in a few days to a week, which works for us as we still have '97 Malibu and generally don't really need both cars.) Tried another dealer, had to make appt. a week ahead and even after they'd had it two days they hadn't even touched car. Also that dealer couldn't/wouldn't fix Malibu noise when it was under warranty (we had bought it from them) despite several tries. Then we had the dealer we bought the truck from insisting the brake should hold truck only on level ground, plus couldn't/wouldn't fix obvious truck noise that the other dealer did (in 2 tries.)

Thanks, will keep looking for dealer that wants our business.

Paul




 
jefro 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 1121
jefro
Loc: Texas
Reg: 06-18-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 02:04 PM - Post#253359    
    In response to jefro

The real deal is that owners should USE their parking brake when ever they exit the vehicle. On this design the owners have no way of knowing if the parking brake actually is working. If it goes to the floor what does that tell you, nothing. They must TEST it and shouldn't have to. You should not be able to drive away with the parking brake properly set unless you way out of touch with your senses.

The LLV's are Chevy not Ford chassis and are one of a kind, the body was made by Grumman but they were bought out. They do not use this design being drum on rear axle. Other service trucks in these year ranges use this design as well as the VMF techs and the many Texas drivers who have a pickup or suv as their personal transportation.



 
Mike C 
Member
Posts: 30
Mike C
Loc: Chesapeake,VA
Reg: 06-19-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-02-03 05:14 PM - Post#253360    
    In response to jefro

Jefro the ffv,s are ford, based on the explorer 4x2 chassis and drivetrain, the older llv,s are nothing more than a s-10 with a grumman aluminum body. But i digress the parking brake on my 02 z71 goes to the floor, but does hold the truck in gear. I think its a poor design, have not seen any problems with the FFV fords with the same setup. Drivers set the thing everytime they park, we have a fleet of about 75 of them and no problems with the ford brakes, just that 4.0 v6 timing chain rattle and a whole bunch of bad IAC valves that are not covered under warranty.

2002 Z71 ECSB LT Westers massaged PCM Magnaflow cat-back


 
GM-Tech 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 4157
GM-Tech
Loc: South Florida
Reg: 06-27-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-04-03 01:31 AM - Post#253361    
    In response to

In reply to:

"There are a lot of factors why the dealership won't fix it. Did you buy it there or elsewhere? Do you do your services there or do you go to Jiffy Lube? Did you bury them on the CSI survey last time you got one?"

Not a very professional comment coming from a "GM Tech"... And one I am sure many possible GM buyers would love to hear.




Sorry if you don't think it's professional. It is, unfortunately, a fact of life in today's world. It isn't just GM or dealerships or the car industry in general that operates under this principle.

.


 
*Mort* 
Senior Member
Posts: 790
*Mort*
Loc: New Brunswick
Reg: 04-09-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-04-03 04:43 AM - Post#253362    
    In response to GM-Tech


Just because the parking brake foot lever can be pushed to the floor does not mean that it should be pushed to the floor every time it is used. That can only result in excessive strain on the system unless it is self adjusting to a maximum force no matter how hard the lever is pushed. That will result in stretched cables and strain on the other components of the system. I must admit I am not really sure how it adjusts for the fact it can be pushed to the floor but I only push mine down until a slight resistance can be felt which is just slightly more than half way. If I test it in this position it will hold the vehicle from moving. Just a thought???

It is recommended to hold the regular brake pedal down when applying or releasing the parking brake, not so much to set the rear shoes as in vehicles with rear drum brakes, but to ensure that the vehicle is and remains stable during this operation and to keep excess pressure off of the parking pal.

I agree why would the parking brake shoes ever wear out if the brake is not applied when the vehicle is moving unless there is a flaw in the system or the cables are not allowing the shoes to fully retract when the parking brake is released. The other reason is forgetting to release the brake which I can do on occassion. I have yet to hear the chime so I guess I have not done that in this vehicle yet. When cables start to seize this can happen but the dash light and chime should warn a person of this.

So far so good for me.

Cheers

Jim

Mort 2003 Silverado 1500HD Auto 4WD


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-04-03 11:20 AM - Post#253363    
    In response to GM-Tech

GM-Tech,

Every dealership seems to operate differently and I can only comment from a customer's perspective.

At one dealership we have been to, the service department has outright contempt for the sales department and seems to be a separate "profit center", so why would they give more favorable treatment to a vehicle bought at that dealer? Many businesses do operate that way, each division a separate profit center. Not saying it's right or wrong but it contradicts what you are saying.

At another dealer we are told there is very little money to be made on a new (as opposed to used) vehicle SALE, and that the money is in the ongoing service. Well then, why wouldn't dealers compete for each other's warranty service business - since that's about all the service that will be needed for many vehicles during the warranty period? If not true - how am I supposed to know that????

I can see on a personal level getting slammed on a survey would cause you to not want to do any favors for a customer. In our case (7 service visits) we were not given one chance to give any feedback to GM and had only 1 followup call from the dealer. We called GM to complain about GM not covering the brake repair only after having the service done and the dealer telling us the GM wouldn't cover it.

I think you are assuming that customers know a lot more about the sales and service process than we do. What we know is we bought the car from GM and the warranty is from GM so if something isn't covered, our argument should be with GM not a dealer. We do not know all the rules for who is supposed to authorize what, or the whole hierarchy of how a warranty claim works through the GM system, but would be happy for you to explain it in detail. Personally I think all vehicle sales should be from "factory stores" and private dealership ownerhip is inefficient, which would solve the whole accountability issue we have now.

In my business I once did work for a customer and it was a pretty big failure, due to the customer failing to prepare the equipment I had to work on properly. That's my story, but they would tell you another story. Anyway once the work was done I submitted my bill and a month later found they had paid 20%, $400 less than the full amount. No complaint, no threat not to pay, that's just what they decided to pay. When I called to figure out what happened, the payables department told me the customer had written "not happy" on the invoice and told them to pay that much.

Did I think the whole problem was their fault? Yes. Did I insist they pay the other $400? No, because I didn't feel like making a lot of excuses to a customer. I didn't think that even for my way-sub-six-figure business, it was worth arguing over $400, because I believe that whenever you can accomodate the customer, you should go with "the customer is always right." So I ate the 20% and moved on, and sure enough they did come back, maybe twice or three times, for more business - I made maybe a couple thousand dollars on that over next couple of years.

So here I am wondering why if I can eat $400 to make a customer happy, why can't GM pay the $200 warranty claim (which would be less than $200 for GM?) where there appears at least to be a legitimate dispute.

So, I would somewhat dispute your argument that "this is how business works."

Paul





 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4603
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-07-03 06:15 AM - Post#253364    
    In response to Mike C

I have a 1989 Ford F350 CC with drum rear brakes. When the parking brake is set, the truck WILL NOT MOVE...even in gear giving it some gas.
On the other hand, I also have a 1996 Chevrolet Caprice with the heavy duty drum rear brakes and when the parking brake is set to the floor, it will barely hold the car and it can be driven away with slight resistance.
No comparision between the Ford parking brake and the Chevy parking brake.

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



 
GM-Tech 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 4157
GM-Tech
Loc: South Florida
Reg: 06-27-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-12-03 08:00 PM - Post#253365    
    In response to tibbitts

In reply to:

I think you are assuming that customers know a lot more about the sales and service process than we do. What we know is we bought the car from GM and the warranty is from GM so if something isn't covered, our argument should be with GM not a dealer. We do not know all the rules for who is supposed to authorize what, or the whole hierarchy of how a warranty claim works through the GM system, but would be happy for you to explain it in detail.




You're right, "we" probably do think the general public knows more about the ins and outs of how our system works than they really do. It would be much to your advantage to know, that's for sure.

While your vehicle is still under warranty, you are entitled to go to any GM dealership that sells that make of GM vehicle. In emergency situations, you can go to ANY GM dealership. The latter is a relatively new occurance as we previously could not, under any circumstances, provide warranty repairs for a make for which we do not have a franchise.

If, during the warranty period, you have a failure, the decision as to whether or not it's a "defect" or related to a lack of maintenance, abuse, normal wear and tear, modification, etc., is totally arbitrary and the decision is up to the Service Manager (SM). GM will not force a SM to perform a repair if the SM has told them it is not a defect, but related to one of the previously mentioned abitrary problems. You can, however, go to another dealership for a second opinion, which GM themselves may recommend.

Does it make good business sense to take care of a customer, whether or not that customer bought the vehicle there or services it there? Absolutely! We bend over backwards in many instances for first time customers that bought the vehicle elsewhere and service it elsewhere. Adding a new customer to the rolls is always a good idea. Do all SM's have good business sense? No, of course not.

Contrary to what my username may indicate, I am a SM at a chevy store. And all I can tell you is, if you rolled into my service drive with your parking brake failure, I would repair it under warranty (assuming you are still IN warranty), no questions asked. I know for a fact that there has been a problem with these and past history says it's not a wear and tear issue. GM would cover it because I determined it to be a warrantable repair. It appears that in your case, GM is not taking care of it for you based on the feedback they are getting from the dealerships you've been to. GM does not make these decisions on their own. They go by what the SM at the dealership tells them.

Would I take care of it for you if you were beyond the terms of the warranty? I don't know. How much out of the warranty would be a factor, but human nature comes into play here too. Come in with the typical "You owe me" demanding attitude and you'd get squat. Be a reasonable person and be willing to work with me, then yeah, I would be more likely to help you out.

Believe it or not, we are expected to do a certain percentage of "goodwill" (out of warranty) repairs. There's no penalty if we don't, but I've had my GM rep tell me we're not doing enough goodwill and we need to spend more money on it.

For every one of your stories about the $400 that you absorbed to make a customer happy, I can give you a couple dozen where we've done the same. So I'm not impressed. How many times A WEEK will you do it before you say "ENOUGH!" and start to base it on how good of a customer it is? And how many times will you do it for the same person when they call you names, berate you, treat you like some piece of dirt that is damn lucky to have their business, threaten to write "Action Line" or call Channel whatever if you don't take care of them. Go ahead, impress me.

.


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-13-03 07:21 PM - Post#253366    
    In response to GM-Tech

GM-Tech,

I don't think I could impress you with weekly statistics, since in 10 years I have almost never had more than one customer per week - happy or otherwise. Through posts by you and others hopefully everybody is learning more about how GM/dealer relationships work.

In my business, I usually perform service as a subcontractor to a manufacturer or primary contractor - which is what I map your GM dealer relationship to. Instead of opening their own stores, GM decided to sub out the sales and service part of the business to you. The manufactures I work with give us absolutely no capability or authority to deal with policy issues - we are REQUIRED to send EVERY customer complaint back to the manufactures or primary contractors. If I'm the source of the customer's complaint, that's when the manufacturer (my customer) comes back to me and I run into the example I gave you.

We never complained to the dealer. I never demanded they do anything - I just described the brake problem to them ("parking brake doesn't hold") and did not even suggest a solution, TSB, etc. Before I ever took the truck in I had already gone to GM about the TSB, complained about the parking brake design, and asked what the policy for covering "premature wear" was, because of what you said: the warranty is with GM, and has to be honored by any dealer. So there must be a written GM policy to guide the dealers, so all dealers will provide uniform service.

I don't really understand your point about the SM's judgement. If GM written policy says a certain failure is a defect, I believe GM could in fact require you to perform that warranty service for GM at the warranty rate. Similarly, you can demand that GM pay you for whatever service you perform in compliance with their written guidelines.

As for our relationship with this dealer, we have never complained to the dealer about anything they have done. We complained directly to GM about the brakes BEFORE having them fixed, WHILE having them fixed, and (numerous times) AFTER having them fixed, each time specifically stating we did not consider this to be a dealer dispute. We complained to the BBB, NHTSA, and anybody else who would listen. Every complaint specified GM, NOT the selling or servicing dealer. We did and do have serious complaints (which we never expressed to GM or anybody else) about the selling dealer, but that's another story.

We were not expecting "goodwill", just coverage during the term of the warranty - or a detailed technical explanation of why the wear we encountered was not the "premature" wear specified by the TSB.

Paul



 
GM-Tech 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 4157
GM-Tech
Loc: South Florida
Reg: 06-27-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-14-03 12:42 PM - Post#253367    
    In response to tibbitts

In reply to:

I don't really understand your point about the SM's judgement. If GM written policy says a certain failure is a defect, I believe GM could in fact require you to perform that warranty service for GM at the warranty rate. Similarly, you can demand that GM pay you for whatever service you perform in compliance with their written guidelines.




When I was talking about judgement calls, I was generalizing, I wasn't speaking specifically about your parking brake concern.

And a TSB on a concern doesn't mean that it applies to your vehicle. You need to read the fine print at the bottom of every TSB. It says, in part, "If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition."

Sure, we have a "Policies & Procedures" book (CD actually these days) that spells out our responsibilities. But even with that, everything is not black and white. It's pretty lengthy, so I obviously don't know it by heart, but I doubt there is anything in there that says anything even close to, "If a car has a problem and it is described in a bulletin, you WILL do it under warranty." There's nothing even remotely like that spelled out.

If the service dept. says that this is not what's wrong with your vehicle (and maybe it isn't!) and the TSB does not apply, well then, you're out of luck.

You keep saying it's GM, it's GM, not the dealer, but I'm telling ya, It's NOT GM, it's the dealer that has the power to make the repair for you under warranty. They're not doing it for whatever reason. I won't even attempt to judge whether they're right or wrong, because I'm not there and I only know your side of the story. And this is exactly the way GM sees it. The dealership is their eyes and ears and if the dealership say no, then it's no.

And I'm done here. I can see I'm getting nowhere trying to get you to see the light. No offense, but I've been in this kind of conversation with a customer many times before. I usually end up throwing up my hands, shaking my head and walking away because they just keep going in circles and circles and just do not want to understand. I'm doing that now.



.


 
tibbitts 
Senior Member
Posts: 127

Reg: 06-16-03
Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-14-03 03:35 PM - Post#253368    
    In response to GM-Tech

GM-Tech,

I do understand your point, I was explaining what we did BEFORE reading yours and other posts, and why we did it. Given what we know now we would have done some things differently.

Meanwhile I've got my own customer satisfaction problem at work this week; it's like facing a whole room full of people with Silverado parking brakes :-(

Paul



 
Anonymous 

Re: Please test your parking brake.
07-14-03 10:21 PM - Post#253369    
    In response to tibbitts

I have a 2000 Z-71 LT Ex-cab short bed and from day one (1-7- 00) the parking brake has been useless but look at the bright side, the rear brake pads lasted 80,000 miles and the front pads are about fifty percent now at 99,000 miles.
The bad news, at 94,000 miles a new transmission was required.




 
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