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Username Post: 3 on the tree to 4 on the floor options        (Topic#375784)
Eth727 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 679
Eth727
Loc: San Diego
Reg: 04-17-19
10-01-24 06:18 PM - Post#2874354    

Hey guys got a 63’ 3 on the tree. Thinking of 4 on the floor conversion. What would bolt right up with minimal modifications?
Thanks



 


pvs409 
"12th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3845
pvs409
Loc: Sergeant Bluff, Iowa
Reg: 01-10-05
10-01-24 06:35 PM - Post#2874355    
    In response to Eth727

Need set of 63-64 clutch and brake pedals( other years will not fit your 63)
Also need 63-64 upper clutch push rod, and lower clutch push rod ( two types can be used)
I suggest a cast iron bell housing ( part # ending in 552)
You need a 62 -63 clutch fork or a clutch fork with a slot in the arm that allows a threaded pin type lower push rod.
You need a pull back spring for the firewall to the upper Z bar arm.
You need a 62-63 Z bar and a Z bar and a Z bar kit with frame and block swivel balls.
Finally you need a weld to the frame Z bar support bracket with a template to locate the correct location to weld the support bracket to the frame.
Finally you have to decide if you are going to convert/ change your column shift steering column to a 4 speed or floor shift steering column.

I have sold full sets of what I noted above for the correct conversion. For 1962’s ( one year pedal set) and 1963 year conversion plus sold over the years 1960 & 1961 sets

Paul

57 BelairHT 283/270hp 4 spd
62 ImpHT 327/300 4 spd
62 Imp CV SS 327/300HP 700R4 (sold)
62 Imp HT SS 409/482 stroker 4 spd
62 Imp SS 409 - 5 spd Convertible
https://paulstensland.com


 
pvs409 
"12th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3845
pvs409
Loc: Sergeant Bluff, Iowa
Reg: 01-10-05
10-01-24 10:48 PM - Post#2874358    
    In response to pvs409

you have to decide if you are going to convert/ change your column shift steering column to a 4 speed or floor shift steering column.

You need to use a Hurst 4 speed shifter and decide on a BW or Muncie 4 speed transmission(the Hurst Shifter has different arms and rods for each type of 4 speed.

All 4 speed cars used factory 4 speed tunnel cover after cutting good sized factory rectangular hole in the floor to fit the shifter.
For a bench seat car a round boot was used -for a hurst shifter you need factory bolt on handle like the factory shifter to fit a round boot since Hurst shifters came with a flat handle.

Paul

57 BelairHT 283/270hp 4 spd
62 ImpHT 327/300 4 spd
62 Imp CV SS 327/300HP 700R4 (sold)
62 Imp HT SS 409/482 stroker 4 spd
62 Imp SS 409 - 5 spd Convertible
https://paulstensland.com


 
kingkreeton 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1792
kingkreeton
Loc: Houston TX
Reg: 04-15-11
10-02-24 03:54 AM - Post#2874360    
    In response to Eth727

You will also need a backup switch and will have to modify your existing dash harness wiring to make the switch work correctly.

My car was initially 3 speed and now has a 4 speed Muncie.

Shane
64 Impala SS:
Chevy Performance 350HO
4 Speed Muncie


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 8099
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
10-02-24 05:57 AM - Post#2874365    
    In response to kingkreeton

Paul, he already has a manual transmission so all he needs is the 4 speed, pedals etc already there. The 3 speed bell housing would likely have the small 63 only input shaft hole though. So may be easier to find a cast iron bell as you mentioned than to find a small bearing retainer transmission or change that out. Also, front driveshaft needs to be shortened.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),1998 Silverado Reg Cab 4WD, 62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
Dave_Neiling 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1429
Dave_Neiling
Loc: Custar, Ohio United State...
Reg: 12-10-01
10-02-24 07:02 AM - Post#2874367    
    In response to DonSSDD

I would get a 64 Aluminum full bell to look more factory correct for a 63. Or use the 421 you have now and find a trans with the smaller diameter bearing retainer the clutch set up is already good from your 3 sp. also lower holes on your trans. crossmember. Shorten driveshaft cut for a tunnel cover and get a shifter boot and get a shifter, I suggest a Hurst competition plus with factory reproduction shift handle. You have it easy with the 3 speed already in the car. They sell a reproduction 4 spd. reverse switch and harness.



 
Eth727 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 679
Eth727
Loc: San Diego
Reg: 04-17-19
10-02-24 10:05 AM - Post#2874375    
    In response to Dave_Neiling

Seems like Muncie is the most popular and most expensive. I just drive usually in town for errands and going to work on the weekends. How are Saginaw or borg Warner for my type of driving?



 
Dave_Neiling 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1429
Dave_Neiling
Loc: Custar, Ohio United State...
Reg: 12-10-01
10-02-24 10:12 AM - Post#2874376    
    In response to Eth727

Both will work Borg Warner was the trans on the early 63 cars and changed to Muncie towards the end of the year. Saginaw is a heavier cast iron trans and not as popular as the former 2 but it will work for you. If you dont want to get a Muncie, Borg 2nd and Saginaw 3rd.



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 8099
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
10-03-24 03:17 AM - Post#2874386    
    In response to Dave_Neiling

I have a BW super t10 in my 63, it is a good option as well as the older t10’s.

I had a Saginaw in my 59 and 62, they worked very good too, but not as strong as the others it you abuse it, I never had a problem. The one thing I didn’t like about the Saginaw was the shifter mount sticks up higher out of the floor, harder to get a rubber boot for it.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),1998 Silverado Reg Cab 4WD, 62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
Eth727 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 679
Eth727
Loc: San Diego
Reg: 04-17-19
10-03-24 07:12 AM - Post#2874388    
    In response to DonSSDD

Did you have a 3 on the tree before?



 
DZAUTO 
Member #51
Posts: 9314

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
10-03-24 02:31 PM - Post#2874395    
    In response to DonSSDD

  • DonSSDD Said:
Paul, he already has a manual transmission so all he needs is the 4 speed, pedals etc already there. The 3 speed bell housing would likely have the small 63 only input shaft hole though. So may be easier to find a cast iron bell as you mentioned than to find a small bearing retainer transmission or change that out. Also, front driveshaft needs to be shortened.



Yep, I agree. Pedals and linkage for a 3sp and 4sp should be 100% the same. And regardless of what bell housing is used, use the same throwout bearing fork.



 
Eth727 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 679
Eth727
Loc: San Diego
Reg: 04-17-19
10-03-24 04:18 PM - Post#2874399    
    In response to DZAUTO

Does my driveshaft need to be shortened or lengthend?



 
Dave_Neiling 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1429
Dave_Neiling
Loc: Custar, Ohio United State...
Reg: 12-10-01
10-03-24 05:10 PM - Post#2874402    
    In response to Eth727

The back half is the same of course the front shaft needs to be shortened and then the whole driveshaft will need to be balanced.



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 8099
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
10-04-24 08:13 AM - Post#2874412    
    In response to Eth727

  • Eth727 Said:
Did you have a 3 on the tree before?


Powerglides, 3 of them. The front driveshaft on a3 on the tree is the longest of them all. I had to have all 3 front driveshafts shortened, took it to a heavy truck shop, they shortened and balanced them and put new universals in. Depending on which transmission you end up with, you may need a new yoke. Different spline count on later muncies and T10’s, may also need a new clutch and PP due to spline count.
There is a sticky on the 58-61 forum, one for transmission dimensions and one for driveshaft lengths. You can also search for posts by DZAUTO on the various bellhousing differences.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),1998 Silverado Reg Cab 4WD, 62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
Levon 
Contributor
Posts: 110

Loc: NY
Reg: 05-06-09
10-04-24 09:49 AM - Post#2874418    
    In response to DonSSDD

Most people on this site have way more experience on this topic than me. I'll add that my 62 Impala was a three on the tree. I put a 69 Muncie M21 with a Hurst competition plus shifter in it. My car has a full bench. I kept the original bell housing and everything bolted up, the drive shaft was not altered. I had to cut a little hole in the floor to push the shifter shaft through, and added a non three on the tree column yoke. I added the reverse light switch onto the rear of the transmission.



Edited by Levon on 10-04-24 02:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
4dr 57 
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4856
4dr 57
Loc: Texas Hill Country
Reg: 11-10-04
10-05-24 05:01 PM - Post#2874441    
    In response to DonSSDD


I recently (a month ago) had a long time buider, fabrcator with a an old leMons with a 455 Poncho engine he had installed in it that a Borg is stronger that a Muncie, just in case someone offers you one for a good price.



It's all good. Mostly


 
DZAUTO 
Member #51
Posts: 9314

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
10-06-24 07:49 AM - Post#2874445    
    In response to 4dr 57

  • 4dr 57 Said:

I recently (a month ago) had a long time buider, fabrcator with a an old leMons with a 455 Poncho engine he had installed in it that a Borg is stronger that a Muncie, just in case someone offers you one for a good price.



UH, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ONLY T10 that can start to compare with the strength of a Muncie is a SUPER T-10.



Edited by DZAUTO on 10-06-24 07:50 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
327 
Contributor
Posts: 476

Age: 63
Loc: Ontario , Canada
Reg: 02-09-21
10-06-24 05:00 PM - Post#2874461    
    In response to DZAUTO

YES I AGREE



 
Eth727 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 679
Eth727
Loc: San Diego
Reg: 04-17-19
10-07-24 01:58 PM - Post#2874483    
    In response to 327

I just have a 327 and don’t race. When you’re talking strong tranny are y’all referring to having a hot rod motor? Like a big block 409?




 
Eth727 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 679
Eth727
Loc: San Diego
Reg: 04-17-19
10-07-24 02:02 PM - Post#2874484    
    In response to Levon

Hey isn’t a 62 the same as a 63 except for the body? Did you do the conversion yourself? Why a m21 vs m20? I’d like to do the same especially not messing with the drive shaft.



 
Levon 
Contributor
Posts: 110

Loc: NY
Reg: 05-06-09
10-07-24 09:44 PM - Post#2874493    
    In response to Eth727

Yes I did the conversion myself. I believe the 62 & 63 are mostly the same interchange wise, but not the body parts. The columns are different. The frames are the same from 61 to 64. When I bought the car in the early nineties, I took out the 283 and put in a '68 327 Vette motor. A speed shop I knew of had a rebuilt M21 for sale ($450) I bought it and purchased a competition plus shifter (I have a full bench, so this particular shifter fit nicely) I took it to them and they connected the shifter. I removed the three on the tree and bolted the Muncie right up using my original bell housing, cross member and dual drive shaft. I may have had to change the drive shaft yolk because of the different number of splines. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.



Edited by Levon on 10-08-24 07:03 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 8099
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
10-08-24 03:35 AM - Post#2874499    
    In response to Levon

You can only use the front driveshaft uncut if you replace your existing transmission with another one which is the same length as your 3 speed. Measure your transmission from the front of the case to the end of the tailshaft case, see if you can find a 4 speed with that same measurement.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),1998 Silverado Reg Cab 4WD, 62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
japete92 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2323
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
10-08-24 08:29 AM - Post#2874507    
    In response to Eth727

  • Eth727 Said:
Hey isn’t a 62 the same as a 63 except for the body? Did you do the conversion yourself? Why a m21 vs m20? I’d like to do the same especially not messing with the drive shaft.



No. Many mechanical parts are interchangeable but not all. The bell housings are different; for example. The '63 is a one year only part. Using the correct front bearing cover (the '63 will fit on the other year's transmissions) is required.

M21 vs M20? the gears and their ratios are different. I'll let you look them up.

Do it yourself? Only you can answer that. It is not that challenging but care is needed getting it right. Floor cutout size and placement, getting the correct yoke (spline count), and alignment of the transmission are a few of details needing special attention.

You have many of the details/answers already from some of your previous post. I won't repeat them.

Pete



 
DZAUTO 
Member #51
Posts: 9314

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
10-08-24 10:52 AM - Post#2874513    
    In response to japete92

  • japete92 Said:
  • Eth727 Said:
Hey isn’t a 62 the same as a 63 except for the body? Did you do the conversion yourself? Why a m21 vs m20? I’d like to do the same especially not messing with the drive shaft.



No. Many mechanical parts are interchangeable but not all. The bell housings are different; for example. The '63 is a one year only part. Using the correct front bearing cover (the '63 will fit on the other year's transmissions) is required.

M21 vs M20? the gears and their ratios are different. I'll let you look them up.

Do it yourself? Only you can answer that. It is not that challenging but care is needed getting it right. Floor cutout size and placement, getting the correct yoke (spline count), and alignment of the transmission are a few of details needing special attention.

You have many of the details/answers already from some of your previous post. I won't repeat them.

Pete



For the 62 and 63 model pass cars, there were FOUR different bell housings, and they are sorta interchangeable.

For 62, there was the open bottom cast iron housing and the open bottom alum housing.
The open bottom alum housing was introduced with the 1960 hi-perf 348 engines and later (61-63) used with 409 engines throudh 63.
There was ONE open bottom alum housing for 1960 (3764591} and another open bottom alum for 61-63 (3779553). Both are scarce and very pricey.

For 63, there was the open bottom alum housing (same as 62 open bottom alum, used with 409s) and there was the full enclosure (ONLY for the smaller 153 teeth flywheel). The full enclosure 63 housing, as already mentioned, was ONE YEAR ONLY. It had the smaller hole for 63 only with either 3-or 4sp transmissions------------ ------EXCEPT 409/4sp CARS.
The 63 409-4sp cars (T10 and Muncie) used the 62 style open bottom alum housing with the LARGER hole. The T-10 and Muncie transmissions behind a 409, had a front bearing retainer that was the same as the larger bearing retainer on 62-earlier 3sp transmissions.

Here is a comparison of alum and iron open bottom housings. The Iron housing with the angled mount pads is 55-59 style. The 60-62 iron housings did not have the angled mount pads.


Attachment: housing_705561-R1-05-20A.jpg (109.23 KB) 41 View(s)




Attachment: housing_705561-R1-06-19A.jpg (141.21 KB) 43 View(s)




Attachment: housing_SUC51697.JPG (361.04 KB) 41 View(s)




Attachment: housing_SUC51699.JPG (359.93 KB) 44 View(s)




Attachment: housing_SUC51702.JPG (363.74 KB) 37 View(s)






 


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