Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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 10-01-24 12:34 PM - Post#2874348
I'm struggling with a transmission issue that arose out of the blue. My car is a 1953 Bel Air with the three speed.
The car was running decently, and was shifting fine. I drove the car into the garage and parked it about a month ago to do some tuning (timing, rockers, and carb). I now have the car running great, but when I start it and try to shift it into gear it grinds and you cannot get it into gear. This happens whether shifting into reverse or first gear. With the car off I can shift it into all gears and it feels normal. The clutch pedal feels totally normal. I put the car into reverse and pushed it backwards (and forwards in first) with the car off...when I tried starting it again it still grinds when trying to get it into gear.
Has my clutch randomly stopped working? I'm just baffled as I drove it into the shifting fine, and now it will not go into any gear at all. I haven't touched the linkage or the transmission.
Any ideas? I'm really new to all of this.
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 Shepherd
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3542
Loc: Lake George, NY
Reg: 11-11-15
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10-01-24 01:41 PM - Post#2874351
In response to Summit_PG
Put the clutch to the floor, see if you can roll up or down a hill, or have someone (yourself) maybe, try and push the car, that will confirm the clutch is not releasing. Reread the post, you say car off, put it in gear and you can move the car?
Edited by Shepherd on 10-01-24 01:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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 RAM_51
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6730
Loc: Yakima, WA. USA
Reg: 12-28-02
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10-01-24 02:35 PM - Post#2874352
In response to Summit_PG
Try lowering your idle PRM slightly.
1951 Fleetline Preservation
'51 Fleetline DeLuxe, POWERglide 2-DR (Fathom Green)
'51 Styleline Special BUSINESS COUPE (Shadow Gray)
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-01-24 08:24 PM - Post#2874356
In response to RAM_51
Thanks for this. What would lowering the RPM do to fix this issue?
Also, I wanted to add more info to try and figure out what is happening:
I've read examples from others with a 'stuck clutch' where the car was parked in 1st or reverse and then left to sit, leading the clutch to stick to the flywheel. My car was parked in neutral. Now when the car is ON and clutch is depressed it cannot shift to first or reverse when it is running because it grinds. When the car is OFF, I can shift through all the gears normally. I tried starting the car in reverse and in first gear with the clutch depressed. When I slowly release the clutch to engage the gear the car feels like it is stuck 'sort of' in gear. It moves forward lurching or backward lurching, but definitely not normal. Is my clutch 'stuck' or is this something else entirely?
Edited by Summit_PG on 10-01-24 09:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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bobt
Contributor
Posts: 425
Loc: colonial heights va
Reg: 06-28-14
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10-02-24 02:30 AM - Post#2874359
In response to Summit_PG
I'm thinking the clutch disk is stuck to the flywheel. Try this. With the engine NOT running, put the car in third gear. Get out of the car and open the hood. Push the car by hand until you see the fan move then push the clutch pedal in and try to start the car. be careful because the car will lurch and should brake the clutch free. If not, do the same process in reverse. The only other thing I can think of is the pilot bushing.
Edited by bobt on 10-02-24 07:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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bobb
Super Senior Member
Posts: 6800
Loc: paradise
Reg: 09-05-03
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10-02-24 08:43 AM - Post#2874372
In response to Summit_PG
i would try adjust the clutch and make sure the z bar is not bending or cracked. but it does sound like the clutch may have failed.
| 70 L camino, grampa engine, g-force 5 spd, road rage suspension. Pray first before all else fails. |
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52_Belair
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Loc: Canby, Oregon
Reg: 03-25-03
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10-02-24 10:58 AM - Post#2874377
In response to Summit_PG
At first as others have said it sounds like your clutch plate is stuck. I had a Harley that would do that.
However if I read correctly you said you tried starting it while in was in gear. If the clutch were stuck the car should have tried to move with the clutch depressed, but it could also have broke loose.
Now if you have a warped clutch disk, or misadjusted clutch, you could start it in gear without the car moving but it wouldn't work smoothly and might shake and grab. This could also cause it to grind when starting in neutral and trying to put it in gear.
Leaving the car parked while in gear or neutral won't matter. I do have a new Kubota tractor and the manual says if it is left parked for long periods of time the clutch may stick. They have a lock on the clutch pedal to keep it disengaged while parked.
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eplantage
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2669
Loc: Southern MN
Reg: 03-15-04
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10-03-24 07:41 AM - Post#2874389
In response to 52_Belair
The shifter lever on the column may be mis-matched with the position of the levers on the side of the transmission, essentially causing it to be "stuck" between gears. With the shift lever on the column in neutral, move the each of the shift rods to neutral either from the engine compartment or from under the car. Make sure the wheels are blocked so it doesn't roll away. .02
Age: 70 at the moment
1950 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery
1953 BelAir Convertible Project
2002 Heritage Springer FLSTSI
1930 Model A Standard Coupe
US Navy Seabees EO2 77-83, 86-88 |
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japete92
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2317
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
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10-03-24 01:31 PM - Post#2874392
In response to eplantage
Just thinking out loud (so to speak):
If the engine is running; the crankshaft is turning. If the pressure plate is engaging the clutch disc to the flywheel; the transmission input shaft is turning with the crank shaft (there's torque being applied to it).
You seem (if I am reading your posts correctly) to have the input shaft rotating while the engine is running even though the clutch should be disengaging the disc from the flywheel. If so, the input shaft IS 'seeing' some torque and is rotating enough to prevent shifting into any gears.
Seems to me the clutch is NOT disengaging the flywheel from the clutch disc properly
Make sense?
Many reasons this may happen. One not yet mentioned is oil leaking from the rear main seal.
Pete.
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-03-24 03:14 PM - Post#2874396
In response to japete92
Thanks for all this information. I have zero experience with any of this so all of the advice helped me get an understanding of the situation. I was confused as I thought that if I was in neutral the clutch was not on the flywheel and as a result couldn't get stuck to it.
Further to the comment above, the car does have a leaky rear main and I suspect that is the root cause of the issue. I am going to try all of the suggestions above to try and get it free.
More to come, lol.
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RAM_51
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6730
Loc: Yakima, WA. USA
Reg: 12-28-02
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10-03-24 03:58 PM - Post#2874398
In response to Summit_PG
Thanks for this. What would lowering the RPM do to fix this issue?
As I suspected, since your rear main seal is leaking, I would assume oil is getting into and on the clutch disc and the flywheel forming a sort of sticky glue or gum. The flywheel will begin to pull the clutch disc along with it at higher RPM, but at lower RPM, there is less force to get this combined movement to take place. Lowering the RPM may not completely solve the issue, but it may make it more tolerable.
1951 Fleetline Preservation
'51 Fleetline DeLuxe, POWERglide 2-DR (Fathom Green)
'51 Styleline Special BUSINESS COUPE (Shadow Gray)
'53 6500 Dump Bed (Faded Red)
'50 Styleline DeLuxe 4-DR (Mist Green) |
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bobb
Super Senior Member
Posts: 6800
Loc: paradise
Reg: 09-05-03
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10-04-24 08:25 AM - Post#2874415
In response to Summit_PG
get someone to press the clutch so you can look for deflection in the linkage.
| 70 L camino, grampa engine, g-force 5 spd, road rage suspension. Pray first before all else fails. |
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52_Belair
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Loc: Canby, Oregon
Reg: 03-25-03
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10-04-24 10:52 AM - Post#2874419
In response to Summit_PG
Earlier you said this:
" I tried starting the car in reverse and in first gear with the clutch depressed. When I slowly release the clutch to engage the gear the car feels like it is stuck 'sort of' in gear. It moves forward lurching or backward lurching, but definitely not normal. Is my clutch 'stuck' or is this something else entirely?"
So you were able to have the engine running with the transmission in gear and still be stopped, not moving correct? The issue in this condition is the clutch is not smooth, i.e. jerks/shudders correct?
If so then the clutch plate is not "stuck", if it were the car would start to move as soon as the starter engaged.
Most likely the clutch disk is contaminated with oil or damaged in some way, that is what causes the jerking/shudder when you try to move. If it didn't have the jerking but was smooth then I would say the clutch was misadjusted and not fully releasing, the clutch would start to engage with the pedal very close to the floor.
You could first check to make sure the clutch linkage is adjusted properly, but it really sounds like you are going to have to pull the transmission and get into the clutch for repairs.
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Shepherd
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3542
Loc: Lake George, NY
Reg: 11-11-15
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 10-04-24 11:36 AM - Post#2874420
In response to 52_Belair
Agreed.
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-06-24 03:38 PM - Post#2874458
In response to 52_Belair
I'm still trying to sort out my clutch issue. The clutch cover and surrounding area is very contaminated with oil, but the flywheel itself is actually remarkably clean. I still suspect there is enough tackyness on the flywheel and that caused things to get adhered. I've done all the different approaches to release the clutch from the flywheel without success. I cannot shift gears when the car is running as it grinds instantly. I can shift normally with the clutch depressed when the car is off. I've check the linkage and everything is moving as it should. I've tried starting the car in 3rd with the clutch depressed and parking brake and regular brake on, in order to try breaking the clutch loose from the flywheel with the starter. I've also tried starting in 1st and reverse with the clutch depressed and brake on--the car lurches forward or backwards and stalls.
Given no success trying to free the clutch from the flywheel without opening things up, I removed the clutch inspection cover to attempt manually freeing the clutch from the flywheel with a screwdriver or puddy spatula. Unfortunately it appears that you can't access the clutch plate without disassembling the clutch assembly. In the photos below I circled the bolts holding the assembly to the flywheel. Can I loosen those bolts to get access to the actual clutch plate, or is it under pressure? I just don't want to loosen it and have the spring tension get everything out of whack. Thanks for any advice!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kcHEjLHFSEpFg1zg8
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japete92
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2317
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
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10-06-24 05:02 PM - Post#2874462
In response to Summit_PG
I'm still trying to sort out my clutch issue. The clutch cover and surrounding area is very contaminated with oil, but the flywheel itself is actually remarkably clean. I still suspect there is enough tackyness on the flywheel and that caused things to get adhered. I've done all the different approaches to release the clutch from the flywheel without success. I cannot shift gears when the car is running as it grinds instantly. I can shift normally with the clutch depressed when the car is off. I've check the linkage and everything is moving as it should. I've tried starting the car in 3rd with the clutch depressed and parking brake and regular brake on, in order to try breaking the clutch loose from the flywheel with the starter. I've also tried starting in 1st and reverse with the clutch depressed and brake on--the car lurches forward or backwards and stalls.
Given no success trying to free the clutch from the flywheel without opening things up, I removed the clutch inspection cover to attempt manually freeing the clutch from the flywheel with a screwdriver or puddy spatula. Unfortunately it appears that you can't access the clutch plate without disassembling the clutch assembly. In the photos below I circled the bolts holding the assembly to the flywheel. Can I loosen those bolts to get access to the actual clutch plate, or is it under pressure? I just don't want to loosen it and have the spring tension get everything out of whack. Thanks for any advice!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kcHEjLHFSEpFg1zg8
I personally think it's time to quit looking for a quick fix and remove the parts and get a good look at what is going on. That would provides access to assess the condition of parts, replacement parts needed (very likely a new clutch disc at a minimum), and any maintenance required.
And, it gives you access to fix the main seal. And, while it's apart, I would take advantage of the access to 'fix'/replace any other parts (freeze plugs for example; I'd replace them even if they are not leaking because the parts are cheap but labor is high if starting from the transmission installed).
Just my opinions.
Pete
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52_Belair
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Loc: Canby, Oregon
Reg: 03-25-03
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10-06-24 06:14 PM - Post#2874466
In response to Summit_PG
Those pressure plate bolts will be under spring tension. The tension should be released before the bolts come fully out. You would want to loosen them in a pattern, kind of like when you change tires.
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-07-24 10:00 AM - Post#2874476
In response to 52_Belair
Earlier you said this:
" I tried starting the car in reverse and in first gear with the clutch depressed. When I slowly release the clutch to engage the gear the car feels like it is stuck 'sort of' in gear. It moves forward lurching or backward lurching, but definitely not normal. Is my clutch 'stuck' or is this something else entirely?"
So you were able to have the engine running with the transmission in gear and still be stopped, not moving correct? The issue in this condition is the clutch is not smooth, i.e. jerks/shudders correct?
If so then the clutch plate is not "stuck", if it were the car would start to move as soon as the starter engaged.
Most likely the clutch disk is contaminated with oil or damaged in some way, that is what causes the jerking/shudder when you try to move. If it didn't have the jerking but was smooth then I would say the clutch was misadjusted and not fully releasing, the clutch would start to engage with the pedal very close to the floor.
You could first check to make sure the clutch linkage is adjusted properly, but it really sounds like you are going to have to pull the transmission and get into the clutch for repairs.
I was on my phone so I couldn't speak to this point before. I described it wrong here. When I try to start the car in gear it lurches forward or back and then stalls immediately. I think I edited the post too many times and confused myself.
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-07-24 10:07 AM - Post#2874477
In response to 52_Belair
Those pressure plate bolts will be under spring tension. The tension should be released before the bolts come fully out. You would want to loosen them in a pattern, kind of like when you change tires.
Thanks for this. My thought is to try and slightly loosen the pressure plate bolts just enough to squeeze a thin blade of some sort in to try and separate the clutch pad from the flywheel. I was just concerned that things might fly apart if I make this attempt.
Outside of that the only other thing I haven't tried is putting the rear end up on jack stands and starting it in gear and then pumping the brakes (I've seen some posts recommending this). Only reason I haven't done this is I'm afraid of the car coming off the jack stands when doing this. The car is stuck in a small garage. Thoughts on this idea?
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52_Belair
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Loc: Canby, Oregon
Reg: 03-25-03
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10-07-24 11:49 AM - Post#2874480
In response to Summit_PG
I would back one bolt all the way out just to see how long they are so you have an idea how far you can back them off.
Once they are backed out, but not removed, the spring pressure should be gone and the clutch might then break loose if you start the car in gear. Without the spring pressure there won't be much keeping the clutch stuck.
Does the '53 have the separate starter button so you can crank the engine with the ignition off? That would be the safe way to do it. Don't set the brakes, you don't want to risk damaging the starter shaft.
Or start the car with the rear wheels off the ground and apply the brakes to free the clutch. If you have good stands and good clearance under the wheels you shouldn't have a problem, block the front wheels. You could have the transmission in third gear, that would make the brakes more effective breaking the clutch loose. If the engine bogged down or stalled you would know the clutch is really stuck.
Edited by 52_Belair on 10-07-24 11:56 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-07-24 03:21 PM - Post#2874486
In response to 52_Belair
I would back one bolt all the way out just to see how long they are so you have an idea how far you can back them off.
Once they are backed out, but not removed, the spring pressure should be gone and the clutch might then break loose if you start the car in gear. Without the spring pressure there won't be much keeping the clutch stuck.
Does the '53 have the separate starter button so you can crank the engine with the ignition off? That would be the safe way to do it. Don't set the brakes, you don't want to risk damaging the starter shaft.
Or start the car with the rear wheels off the ground and apply the brakes to free the clutch. If you have good stands and good clearance under the wheels you shouldn't have a problem, block the front wheels. You could have the transmission in third gear, that would make the brakes more effective breaking the clutch loose. If the engine bogged down or stalled you would know the clutch is really stuck.
Hmm, I wasn't considering starting the car with the pressure plate loosened, but I suppose that may be an option on the extreme end. I was hoping to simply loosen the pressure plate bolts enough to pull the pressure plate back far enough to access the clutch pad with a putty knife or something.
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bobb
Super Senior Member
Posts: 6800
Loc: paradise
Reg: 09-05-03
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10-09-24 08:08 AM - Post#2874527
In response to Summit_PG
loosen the bolts, stick a washer in next to the bolt and snug it up. press the clutch and get your putty knife in there.
| 70 L camino, grampa engine, g-force 5 spd, road rage suspension. Pray first before all else fails. |
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-13-24 12:39 PM - Post#2874646
In response to Summit_PG
Update time. I put the rear of the car up on jackstands and started it in second gear. After many attempts as accelerating and then braking hard the clutch freed itself from the flywheel.
When I tried driving the car the clutch is chattering and felt rough, like it had some gunk on it. The chattering only happens when coming out of neutral into first or reverse. No issues at all with the 1 to 2 shift, or 2 to 3. After taking the car for a 20 minute drive it feels almost back to normal.
All that being said, given that I can get it out of the garage and into a shop now that it moves, I am thinking of taking it into a transmission shop to look at getting the clutch replaced. My shop is simply too small, and laying on the frozen ground for hours getting it done myself doesn't seem fun.
Any idea how much it costs (ballpark) to have the clutch replaced on these cars?
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52_Belair
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Loc: Canby, Oregon
Reg: 03-25-03
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10-13-24 01:56 PM - Post#2874649
In response to Summit_PG
Yes the chattering when starting would be from contamination or a deformation of the clutch and possibly a need to resurface the flywheel and pressure plate.
You won't notice anything when shifting while moving because the clutch isn't really doing anything, it doesn't have to slip, you can change gears while moving without even depressing the clutch.
No idea of the cost, shop labor rate plus parts etc. Probably the hardest thing will be finding a shop that will do the work, most shops in my area don't want to work on older cars. I found a guy who specializes in old cars and I'm on a months long waiting list for work I need done.
Edited by 52_Belair on 10-13-24 02:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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japete92
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2317
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
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10-13-24 04:00 PM - Post#2874658
In response to Summit_PG
Update time. I put the rear of the car up on jackstands and started it in second gear. After many attempts as accelerating and then braking hard the clutch freed itself from the flywheel.
When I tried driving the car the clutch is chattering and felt rough, like it had some gunk on it. The chattering only happens when coming out of neutral into first or reverse. No issues at all with the 1 to 2 shift, or 2 to 3. After taking the car for a 20 minute drive it feels almost back to normal.
All that being said, given that I can get it out of the garage and into a shop now that it moves, I am thinking of taking it into a transmission shop to look at getting the clutch replaced. My shop is simply too small, and laying on the frozen ground for hours getting it done myself doesn't seem fun.
Any idea how much it costs (ballpark) to have the clutch replaced on these cars?
In my opinion, if you don't fix the rear main seal leak, you will be right back to where you are now (needing a new clutch) soon.
Pete
Edited by japete92 on 10-13-24 04:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-13-24 06:02 PM - Post#2874664
In response to japete92
Yes, that's my main concern too. It's just so much money to pay someone to replace the rear main and I just don't have the skills to do it.
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old51sedan
Contributor
Posts: 840
Loc: Michigan
Reg: 10-11-09
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10-14-24 07:41 AM - Post#2874674
In response to Summit_PG
For what it's worth, I had a problem with my 51 after I had put the car together with a new clutch. If I let it sit for months during the winter the clutch would stick to the flywheel and like you I'd have to unstick it. After that I cut a short piece of 2x4 pushed the clutch to the floor and put that between the clutch petal and the dash, after I had drove it a few hundred miles I never had the problem again, but I have it put away for winter and have that 2x4 holding the clutch to the floor just to be sure.I don't believe oil on it would make it stick, may make it slip when driving though.
1951 styleline 2dr deluxe
Original 51 plate, Dealer Tag, Documents
58,000 original miles, second owner
1954 PG 235, rear axle, Power Steering
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Summit_PG
Newbie
Posts: 31
Reg: 03-24-24
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10-14-24 08:17 AM - Post#2874677
In response to old51sedan
Interesting! I was considering doing the same thing--proping the clutch pedal down to keep the clutch disengaged during the winter. Some places say this is OK, while others say it will damage the clutch springs. Any idea either way? If it doesn't cause damage I will probably do this as we get a solid 6 months of winter where the car cannot leave the garage.
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Shepherd
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3542
Loc: Lake George, NY
Reg: 11-11-15
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10-14-24 09:17 AM - Post#2874680
In response to Summit_PG
Better way may be to operate the clutch once a week, not leave it depressed.
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52_Belair
Senior Member
Posts: 286
Loc: Canby, Oregon
Reg: 03-25-03
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10-14-24 09:57 AM - Post#2874682
In response to Summit_PG
You will find plenty of conflicting opinions on if leaving springs compressed will damage them or not. As I mentioned in an earlier comment my Kubota has a pin to hold the clutch depressed for storage.
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