 toro455
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1392
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
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08-15-24 09:33 PM - Post#2872765
I just wanted to see if others had any other ideas just in case it's not the starter. I've had the truck since it was new and it is the original starter.
Tonight it failed to start and there was zero noise of the solenoid etc. I tried swapping the starter relay with the defogger relay and no change. I was too far away from the relay to listen to know if the relay was clicking or not.
I had just started it a few hundred feet away and I was in a store for less than 5 minutes. I could tell the way it acted the battery seemed fine. Plus it wasn't like it slow cranked; there was no solenoid/ no noise at all.
Thankfully it's a manual. I put it in neutral, got it rolling backwards, and I shifted to reverse and turned the key (I had parked forward a few feet from the store wall). Thankfully the truck started immediately before it rolled more than a few feet.
When it occurred I immediately thought of the clutch safety switch which has always seemed like the opposite of safety to me. I even wondered if I could still "push start" it with that feature.
Anyway, I ruled out the relay and I ordered a replacement starter but I was wondering if I should be checking something else before jumping to conclusion. After I started it I drove it 4 miles back to my house. I tried starting it again in my driveway and absolutely no sound again but I suspect I could push start it without issue.
Scott
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toro455
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1392
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
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08-17-24 11:24 AM - Post#2872796
In response to toro455
Update: The Tech2 clearly shows that the clutch switch is working so at least that's not the issue.
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 gchemist
Member #271 Senior Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 26094
Loc: Austin, TX 78748
Reg: 05-09-00
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08-17-24 03:14 PM - Post#2872799
In response to toro455
Oh man! You have a Tech II tool? Sweet! If it runs, the neutral safety switch should be fine. Once the starter is off, clamp some jumper cables on it.
'83 Silverardo XST - ZZ4 powered
'95 Jimmy SLT (Bought @131,814)
'96 GMC Jimmy LS Ret. @236651 miles
'08 GMC Acadia 3.6L SLE
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toro455
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1392
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
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08-17-24 07:13 PM - Post#2872807
In response to gchemist
Oh man! You have a Tech II tool? Sweet! If it runs, the neutral safety switch should be fine. Once the starter is off, clamp some jumper cables on it.
Yes, I don't need it all the time but that Tech2 is great for some things. It helps with the evap system because you can command the vent and the purge plus see the pressure in the tank.
My truck is a manual so that clutch sensor is only a check for initial start.
Exactly as you wrote, I do intend to check the old starter once I pull it down before opening the sealed box with the replacement. I don't hear the solenoid so that might be all it is but they've gotten so expensive you can almost buy a starter for the same price (with the solenoid). I figured that out the hard way on a job last year. It killed me to return the starter I just rebuilt as a core-charge. The solenoid was damaged and it was over $40.
The replacement starter should have arrived tomorrow. There was a box delivered today that I thought was an outside "solid brass" lantern. I picked up the box and I immediately thought Wow, this thing is really solid brass it weighs a ton for an outdoor light... then I realized the starter arrived early.
I just hope that it is the starter or solenoid.. I tend to end-up with jobs which are not that straight forward.
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gchemist
Member #271 Senior Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 26094
Loc: Austin, TX 78748
Reg: 05-09-00
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08-18-24 08:04 AM - Post#2872817
In response to toro455
Having a true manual trans is so enjoying. I've started a few older trucks by push starting them. Best truck to push start was a '69 International. It was a four speed manual. We could load the truck bed weight and it moved great. The wheel size steering wheel was awesome. The saw toothed valve covers were cool too.
I'm going to look so see if I can find someone locally with a Tech2. It would come in handy to troubleshoot my old '95 Jimmy. I once found a website that would rent them out. I need check my spreadsheet to see if I saved it.
'83 Silverardo XST - ZZ4 powered
'95 Jimmy SLT (Bought @131,814)
'96 GMC Jimmy LS Ret. @236651 miles
'08 GMC Acadia 3.6L SLE
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toro455
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1392
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
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08-18-24 07:17 PM - Post#2872848
In response to gchemist
I would think the Tech2's must come-up used from time to time. There are also various copies. At one point I knew what to look for in the copies to distinguish the good from the not-so-good. I do recall reading all copies were not created equally.
The no-start issue did turn out to be the starter. The nut on the small wire had basically become a part of the stud (only an issue to for removal). I used a 6-point small box end and tried to work it but the stud broke like it was made of butter. The large braided copper cable going from the solenoid to the starter was almost non-existent. When I first looked at it it appeared as if it had broken completely but the fibers were misaligned by half the diameter. Maybe it was completely broken because I never had to touch that cable and when I looked at it a second time, on the floor, it was completely broken.
The new starter works great but it has a sound like the laugh of the cartoon dog Muttley. The crazy thing is I had never heard a starter sound like that and then a car started next to me in a parking lot an hour after doing mine, newer vehicle, and it sounded exactly the same.
I don't know if I've ever even seen the cartoon but I knew there was a cartoon dog which sounded exactly like the starter as soon as I heard it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-s2uaaXAR8
I just hope it has longevity... Other than that small frozen fastener it was easy to change. One bolt was difficult to access due to a frame support and I started to think..Great nobody who commented how easy they are to do has ever done one on a manual transmission with the ZQ8 3 in drop.
I saw a video where they removed the wheel to do the electrical connections (4WD version). Just jacking mine up exposes that area, without removing the wheel, but I couldn't really see how doing it through the wheel well would be easier. Instead I did everything from underneath. I dropped it down, removed the electrical connections, installed the connections in the same orientation on the new starter. I also started the 13mm head mounting bolt in the new starter prior to moving it to the final position. I could unthread that bolt but I couldn't remove it completely before rotating the starter with both bolts fully loosened.
Sizes-Torque:
Mounting bolt heads: 13mm
Small nut: Probably 8mm but 5/16" fit perfectly which is a tiny amount smaller.
Large nut battery cable: 13mm
Torque starter to block: 33ft lbs is what I found
Torque on the electrical connections: Both came with lock washers so I fully compressed the lock and made them tight-by-experience.
I did have one very thin starter shim on my truck which I left alone. It never separated itself.
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gchemist
Member #271 Senior Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 26094
Loc: Austin, TX 78748
Reg: 05-09-00
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08-19-24 04:05 AM - Post#2872855
In response to toro455
"That laugh" is a good low resistance spinning starter. I helped a friend replace his on a '09 Accord. Start spin is fast and strong.
'83 Silverardo XST - ZZ4 powered
'95 Jimmy SLT (Bought @131,814)
'96 GMC Jimmy LS Ret. @236651 miles
'08 GMC Acadia 3.6L SLE
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toro455
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1392
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
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08-19-24 05:58 AM - Post#2872862
In response to gchemist
"That laugh" is a good low resistance spinning starter. I helped a friend replace his on a '09 Accord. Start spin is fast and strong.
Ok that's good news then  Thanks!
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