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Username Post: A re-introduction of sorts (and help with 200-4R?)        (Topic#374237)
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
12-28-23 11:49 AM - Post#2865334    

So I haven't been active here for almost 10 years, but I still have my Impala, and I've been making some big improvements lately, so I figured I'd reintroduce myself and my car before jumping in and asking questions.

It's a 1965 base Sport Coupe that I've had for 30 years. Odometer said 65k when I bought it and it just rolled over last fall. Repainted in the original Artesian Turquoise. 283, 2bbl, Powerglide.





In the last couple of years, a buddy of mine has persuaded me to get it out of the garage and drive it more. More importantly, he has been instrumental in helping me do some of the upgrades I have wanted to do. Two winters ago, we installed a CPP drop spindle kit to lower the front two inches and upgrade to front disc brakes. We also replaced the ancient radiator and upgraded to a 5-blade cooling fan with a shroud. The dual exhaust was similarly ancient and I had it replaced too. Not long after that, we ditched the repop Rally wheels I had on it (which never balanced right anyway) and color-matched a set of 15 x 7 steelies for it. I like the look much better.

The big plan for this winter is swapping out the Powerglide for a 200-4R. I was fortunate enough to pick up a used one that had been sitting on a shelf at a local shop for years. The price seemed good, and the numbers/stickers on it indicate that it is indeed out of an '87 Grand National. I am sending it off to be rebuilt/refreshed this month. The list of required parts to retrofit it seems to keep growing. Please throw in any advice if you know of a better way to do what I'm trying to do.

For starters, there doesn't seem to be an easy/accurate way to adapt the 200-4R TV cable to the Rochester 2GC. However, I happen to have a cast-iron intake off a '66 327 with a Quadrajet (casting number 3875954). I'm thinking I will get an Edelbrock 1403, which is 500 cfm and pretty close to what would have been on the car if the 283 had been ordered with the dual exhaust/4 barrel option. From what I understand, the only difference between the 283/195 and the 283/220 was that the 220 had the 4-barrel and dual exhaust. There are lots of adapter pieces readily available to mate the TV cable to the 1403 with the correct spacing and geometry, so that problem would be solved. Is there any reason that intake with a spacer wouldn't work with that carb? My research says it was originally for a car with A.I.R. if that matters.

Another question for anyone who has done this: Will the original throttle rod linkage from the accelerator pedal work with the Edelbrock 1403?

Other stuff I know I will need: I already purchased a TCI lockup kit and I plan to get a crossmember from Bowtie Overdrives.

Last question, again for anyone who may have done it: Will the stock Powerglide column shift linkage work to shift through Park, R, N, OD, and D? Will the detents be accurate enough for the neutral safety switch to work and to allow the shift arm on the side of the transmission to "click" into each position completely? I can live without access to 2 and 1 for now, at least.

Thanks in advance for looking and for any words of wisdom.

Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


Edited by ParkRNDL on 12-28-23 12:22 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 


J260MikeN 
Poster
Posts: 54

Reg: 08-01-18
12-28-23 12:00 PM - Post#2865335    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Wow, nice car! I swapped the Powerglide for a TH400 in my similar 65 with a 350. The factory column shift linkage works fine on the TH400 - don't know why it wouldn't work on a 200-4R.

I installed a 200-4R in my 69 Chevelle years ago - worked great.



Edited by J260MikeN on 12-28-23 12:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
12-28-23 02:15 PM - Post#2865338    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Remembered one more question:

I know that one of the reasons to go with a 200-4R over a 700R4 is that the 200 is the same length as the Powerglide and therefore can use the same driveshaft. But is the output shaft the same between the two transmissions (e.g. same number of splines)? Or will I need a different front yoke for the 200? Thanks again.

Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


 
Magnetocheck 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 471
Magnetocheck
Age: 69
Loc: Charlotte, NC, USA
Reg: 09-05-22
12-28-23 02:16 PM - Post#2865339    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Nice Ride! Love the color and the steelies, although I have to say I AM partial to my Rally's
Can't help with the details since I have never done that swap, but sure sounds like a great plan to ditch the 2 bbl and the PG. I think you will be very pleased with the results.

Attachment: 65_Impala.jpg (3.07 MB) 47 View(s)




Bob
'65 Impala SS 396 Convertible


Edited by Magnetocheck on 12-28-23 02:19 PM. Reason for edit: Added photo

 
docjns1 
"4th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 408
docjns1
Loc: upstate NY
Reg: 11-12-19
12-28-23 04:55 PM - Post#2865340    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Unfortunately, like Bob I can't help answer your questions and I run rallys on my SS, but I will say this:

That steely/dog dish set up screams "This car means business!"

Attachment: DSC_0386__2_.JPG (2.07 MB) 46 View(s)




Steve
*********
'65 Impala SS, Crocus Yellow/blk
327 / 300 L74
M11 3 on the tree
12 bolt 3.31 open dif


 
toro455 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1272
toro455
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
12-28-23 06:51 PM - Post#2865345    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Welcome back and very nice looking car/color!

You already mentioned Bowtie Overdrives. See if they have a set-up for any car or TB you wish to use. They've made set-ups for many things... for the 2GC not certain (probably low likelihood but I would ask).

With the TV cable the only way to make certain it is correct in both no throttle and full throttle is to take the pan off and make certain the linkage is giving you the proper position. With no throttle (at the carb) the bracket which contacts the plunger should take-up all slack but not push the plunger. At full throttle the plunger should be buried to flush in the bushing. If either of those is not the case something is wrong.

I had a complicated issue and despite following the normal instructions and despite pressures which were considered correct the total plunger travel was not correct.

I don't know the answer to the driveshaft length question but the TH200-4R mounts PERFECTLY with the TH400 transmission mount bracket stock position. You can use the same transmission crossmember as you had with the PG. I was making reproduction transmission support mounting brackets for out cars. I stopped because it was really hard on the set-up I had to make them at the time.

Let us know how it goes...

Scott



 
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
12-28-23 08:10 PM - Post#2865350    
    In response to toro455

  • toro455 Said:
Welcome back and very nice looking car/color!

You already mentioned Bowtie Overdrives. See if they have a set-up for any car or TB you wish to use. They've made set-ups for many things... for the 2GC not certain (probably low likelihood but I would ask).

With the TV cable the only way to make certain it is correct in both no throttle and full throttle is to take the pan off and make certain the linkage is giving you the proper position. With no throttle (at the carb) the bracket which contacts the plunger should take-up all slack but not push the plunger. At full throttle the plunger should be buried to flush in the bushing. If either of those is not the case something is wrong.

I had a complicated issue and despite following the normal instructions and despite pressures which were considered correct the total plunger travel was not correct.

I don't know the answer to the driveshaft length question but the TH200-4R mounts PERFECTLY with the TH400 transmission mount bracket stock position. You can use the same transmission crossmember as you had with the PG. I was making reproduction transmission support mounting brackets for out cars. I stopped because it was really hard on the set-up I had to make them at the time.

Let us know how it goes...

Scott



I have checked with Bowtie Overdrives. They actually have a setup for a 2GC listed on their site, but it shows as No Longer Available. I contacted them to ask if there are plans to manufacture more, but never got a response.

I have seen documentation to the effect that the stock PG crossmember works for the 200-4R if it's placed in the TH400 position, but I have also read that not all cars came with the second set of pockets for the TH400 on the frame. Mine does not have them. This is a pic I borrowed from a thread about this on another forum:


As I understand it, all cars came with the front set of mounts, but not all came with the rear set. Mine doesn't have them.

Thanks for the tip on setting up the TV cable. I'm a little nervous knowing how crucial it is, and it's good to know there's a reality check to make sure it's done correctly.

Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


Edited by ParkRNDL on 12-28-23 08:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
toro455 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1272
toro455
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
12-28-23 11:36 PM - Post#2865354    
    In response to ParkRNDL

That's correct not every car had the rear position. That's the bracket I was making.

Try phoning Bowtie OD again if you want to keep your existing carb. They are getting a local place to water jet or laser cut the blanks and very likely the same place bends anything which needs bending. If they still have the design it shouldn't be an issue. The key is the cable mount point needs to be the correct radius to pull exactly the full travel of the TV plunger while at the same time the throttle goes from full closed to full open; verified at the carb (not the pedal). The TV cable end actually pulls on another bracket mounted inside the pan and it pivots to push the plunger. If you have the right parts it sounds scarier than it actually is. I had an issue in the valve body and that's the reason it was more of a learning experience than it should have been.

Scott



 
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
12-29-23 05:42 AM - Post#2865362    
    In response to toro455

I will try giving them a call. Last time I just sent an email, which I suppose can be missed pretty easily.

Hey, do you happen to know how far back on the frame from the originals those new crossmember mounts would get welded? If I bring enough numbers to my mechanic buddy, he might know somebody who can make some upů

Thanks!

Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


 
toro455 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1272
toro455
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
12-29-23 08:22 AM - Post#2865366    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Yes, but in the end I used the actual transmission to perfectly locate them. I posted the exact dimension someplace on CT so I need to search when I have a chance.

I still have a few blanks cut-out so talk to me before you have your friend do something. I've seen people use simple angle-iron and it really lets the car down. Your car is too nice for a non-factory look solution (even if it's under the car). My set-up is better now but I haven't made any in a long time. I had a lot of time in each part at the time.

Scott



Attachment: TransmissionCrossmemberBracketInPosition.JPG (165.37 KB) 47 View(s)


Original bracket and mine shown in the rear positon prior to welding.


Attachment: IMG_20180803_142455.jpg (2.86 MB) 42 View(s)


A pair of my brackets




 
Magnetocheck 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 471
Magnetocheck
Age: 69
Loc: Charlotte, NC, USA
Reg: 09-05-22
12-29-23 08:41 AM - Post#2865368    
    In response to toro455

Sweet metal work, Scott. Agree with avoiding the angle iron look, even if functional. Makes one wonder what else was done on the cheap.

Bob
'65 Impala SS 396 Convertible


 
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
12-29-23 11:31 AM - Post#2865372    
    In response to Magnetocheck

Wow! They look REALLY great, as in even better than the original mounts. I will see if he has any connections with welders who can be there when the work is gonna take place. Thanks for the heads up; if we can work something out I'll be in touch.

Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


 
J260MikeN 
Poster
Posts: 54

Reg: 08-01-18
01-03-24 01:42 PM - Post#2865539    
    In response to ParkRNDL

When I replaced the PG with TH400 in my 65 Impala 6 years ago, I used some reproduction mounts I got off ebay or similar - possibly the ones made by the member in the above post. There wasn't a second set of mounts on my frame, nor provisions for them, and I'm not a welder. I mounted the transmission, supported it with a jack, installed the crossmember to the transmission mount, and scribed the position of the new mounts on each side of my frame. I then drilled 3/8" holes in my frame to attach the new mounts (two holes on each side). I attached the mounts to the frame with grade 8 3/8"-16 bolts. I also drilled two 3/8" holes lower in the boxed frame on each side to allow the box end of a 9/16" wrench to go up inside the frame rail, facilitating tightening the bolts. The access holes for the wrench had to be enlarged/oval-ed out a bit with a die grinder to allow the wrench to pass through. It sounds hillbilly, but it actually looks OK and has worked fine for 6 years and over 10,000 miles.

EDIT: It was my intention to eventually have a muffler shop weld my new brackets to the frame, but the longer I procrastinated, and the longer I saw it works fine, I finally called it good without welding.



Edited by J260MikeN on 01-03-24 01:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
01-17-24 04:13 PM - Post#2866027    
    In response to toro455

  • toro455 Said:
That's correct not every car had the rear position. That's the bracket I was making.

Try phoning Bowtie OD again if you want to keep your existing carb. They are getting a local place to water jet or laser cut the blanks and very likely the same place bends anything which needs bending. If they still have the design it shouldn't be an issue. The key is the cable mount point needs to be the correct radius to pull exactly the full travel of the TV plunger while at the same time the throttle goes from full closed to full open; verified at the carb (not the pedal). The TV cable end actually pulls on another bracket mounted inside the pan and it pivots to push the plunger. If you have the right parts it sounds scarier than it actually is. I had an issue in the valve body and that's the reason it was more of a learning experience than it should have been.

Scott



Thanks for the advice to give them a call and check in! Turns out they do have what I need and I ordered it right there on the phone. Now it wasn't cheap, but it was a couple hundred cheaper than buying a new Edelbrock and all the stuff that would entail, so I'm rationalizing that I came out ahead.

I could have ordered the crossmember right then while I had them on the phone, but I was suffering a little sticker shock at the moment. I'd also like to see if I can get the TH400 mounts welded on as you suggested. Unfortunately the buddy who's helping me with the transmission swap doesn't have a welding setup. I do have another local shop that I'm pretty sure would do it for me; I'd just have to bring them the car with the measurements to have it completed before we actually do the swap.

I did search your posts to try to find dimensions for welding on the new brackets without having the actual transmission to line up. I was able to find this post:
https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...
but it doesn't seem to list dimensions/measurements. I will eventually check my copy of the 1965 assembly manual, but unfortunately at the moment it's in the trunk of the car, which is currently at a shop an hour away having some other work done.

At any rate, I will show the photos in this thread to the shop I think would do the welding to see what they think. You mentioned still having blanks for the brackets available; if the shop will do it I'd be interested in a set. Thanks!

edit: I forgot, there's a '65 assembly manual uploaded right here to CT. Noticed it a couple weeks ago. Headed there now.

edit 2: Assembly manual didn't help, but then I found this post:
https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...

edit 3: It's in the assembly manual here at CT after all, kind of. In the '65 manual, it's page 370/437 in the PDF doc, but oddly it doesn't show the original PG mounts so it's confusing. It's clearer in the '66 manual, page 424/510, because it shows both sets of mounts... but the numbers it gives are from the engine mount hole on the front crossmember, so it's kinda useless if the car is all together. I think I'm going to go with the measurement in the post above: 6.375" from the hole on the front bracket to the corresponding hole on the rear bracket.


Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


Edited by ParkRNDL on 01-17-24 05:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
toro455 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1272
toro455
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
01-17-24 07:37 PM - Post#2866029    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Rick,
My car is still at the shop painting it else I would try to verify the measurement for you. In that topic you linked I measured it as close as possible with a TH200-4R setting the position. It seems though, when we did the final check before welding, the bracket ears ended up slightly closer together.

It's been really cold here lately and I've had a few projects on a timeline but I did find some remaining blanks I had cut already.

Glad Bowtie was able to help.

Scott



 
ParkRNDL 
Newbie
Posts: 44
ParkRNDL
Age: 54
Loc: Chambersburg, PA
Reg: 08-14-12
04-27-24 07:09 PM - Post#2869251    
    In response to toro455

So there are updates!

Car has been in bodywork jail since just after Christmas; got it back last Wednesday. But in the meantime:

The buddy who has been helping me work on this thing got himself a welder, so it looks like he can help me weld the new crossmember pockets onto the frame.

The 200-4R came back from the rebuilder. He said it is in fact out of a Grand National and has the "good" parts (valve body? servos?) and that he put a mild shift kit in it.

I received my kit from Bowtie Overdrives to make the TV cable work with a Rochester 2GV. It's very well made, other than one adjuster bolt seeming to be a little too short. It does, however, require you to remove the throttle arm from the carburetor throttle shaft by grinding off the spot weld, and then to tack weld their throttle arm back on. I was hoping for an easier way to correct the TV cable geometry, but I guess there are too many variations of the Rochester carb for there to be a simple one-size-fits-all solution.

Also, BTO sent a very nice TV cable with the kit, but the carb end doesn't look anything like the factory setup. The trans rebuilder said that the factory TV cable that I got with the transmission is in good shape and I could use it if I wanted. But I don't know if it's worth mixing and matching BTO stuff to work with the factory cable.

Finally a couple of simple odds-and-ends questions:

Will the car's original PG speedo cable attach to the 200-4R? I know that to get it to read accurately, I may need to swap out some little plastic drive gears. But is the cable connection the same?

Will the PG column linkage bolt up to the 200-4R? Years ago, when I swapped the L6/PG out of my '73 Nova for a 307/TH350, the linkage bolted right up. I had to "feel" a little for the gears, since the detents no longer matched up, but it worked okay. I am hoping that the P-R-N-D-L on the dash indicator will roughly line up with P-R-N-OD-D on the new transmission. I can live without being able to manually downshift to 2 and 1, at least for now.

Also, today's find:
Picked this up at a flea market for $10. Should work great with this transmission.

https://imgur.com/pixzx8E
https://imgur.com/FuHvCoX






Thanks for any advice you all may have.

Rick, '65 Sport Coupe, 283/PG, Artesian Turquoise

"You say your name is Colette Call? Are you French, Operator?" -Wolfman Jack


Edited by ParkRNDL on 04-27-24 07:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
toro455 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1272
toro455
Loc: Western NY
Reg: 06-15-02
05-16-24 04:58 PM - Post#2869947    
    In response to ParkRNDL

Rick,
Great that you friend now has access to a welder. I took the best measurement I could take tonight while I was under my car and the distance from the centerline of the front hole of the front mount is just over 6.25" but under 6 5/16". I didn't remove the mounting bolt but my measurement should be extremely close if anyone else sees this and has the same question. I will also update that other topic.

Scott



 


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