 Chevyfan60
"21st Year" Silver Supporting Member
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10-25-21 07:14 PM - Post#2829750
My sister has a 1970 Camaro that she bought new in 1970. Recently, a mechanic told her it didn't have the original engine because he block number doesn't match the VIN. Is this correct? She knows it's the original engine because she's the original owner. What's the story here? Thanks!
Michael
1960 Impala 348, 1960 El Camino (x2), 1960 Nomad, 1992 S-10 Blazer, 2001 GMC Sierra 2500HD,
2002 Trailblazer |
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wagonman100
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10-26-21 06:29 AM - Post#2829756
In response to Chevyfan60
The last numbers of the VIN are stamped in the block on a pad just ahead of the passenger side cylinder head. There are other numbers and letters before it indicating the engine and assembly plant, etc. But the last sequence of numbers should match the last sequence of the VIN.
It would be highly unusual for them to not match since she has owned the car since new and has never had the engine replaced. But there could have been a screw up at the factory where the number was stamped incorrectly or the wrong engine was put in the car. But again, that would be very unusual.
Check the numbers for yourself and see if they match. I believe it’s the last 6 numbers of the VIN are what is stamped in the block.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
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Chevyfan60
"21st Year" Silver Supporting Member
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10-26-21 05:12 PM - Post#2829797
In response to wagonman100
Thanks Jay, I'll check it out 
Michael
1960 Impala 348, 1960 El Camino (x2), 1960 Nomad, 1992 S-10 Blazer, 2001 GMC Sierra 2500HD,
2002 Trailblazer |
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Tony1963
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10-29-21 03:12 PM - Post#2829941
In response to Chevyfan60
There is way too much hype about original this and original that. Yes, it does distinguish a vehicle as an original. However, what your sister "says" is not evidence.
The market does just like the mechanic does. They read the number on the engine against the VIN. It either matches or it doesn't. End of story.
If you had some documentation to prove that the engine in the vehicle is original to the car, that's a different story. However, I doubt anyone would care because it still isn't "numbers matching".
| People fear change because it threatens what they know, or what they claim to know. |
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55MAS
Senior Member
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10-30-21 07:08 AM - Post#2829967
In response to Tony1963
No details about what it is and the condition. May be a base model with a 6-cylinder. Or worse.
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wagonman100
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10-30-21 07:41 PM - Post#2829985
In response to Tony1963
There is way too much hype about original this and original that. Yes, it does distinguish a vehicle as an original. However, what your sister "says" is not evidence.
The market does just like the mechanic does. They read the number on the engine against the VIN. It either matches or it doesn't. End of story.
If you had some documentation to prove that the engine in the vehicle is original to the car, that's a different story. However, I doubt anyone would care because it still isn't "numbers matching".
If his sister has owned the car since new and has never had the engine replaced, that is evidence. Unless the car was in for other work for an extended period and some unscrupulous mechanic switched engines because the one in the car was a hi performance optional engine. I had a friend who went to pick up his new Dodge Dart back in the day and found the techs in the shop had his car in the air. They didn’t know he was the owner. He asked what they were doing and one of them said one of the mechanics was seeing what gear ratio was in the car and was going to switch out the gears with his personal car if it was the ratio he wanted. Or there was a factory screw up with the engine as I mentioned.
Maybe the current mechanic thinks he is looking at the right numbers, but actually isn’t. There are plenty of people who think they know what they are looking at but really don’t. I am curious to hear the outcome of this since she is the original owner and has never had anyone pull the motor. Right now I’d tend to think the car is still a numbers matching car. I’d trust what the original owner of the vehicle says over what a mechanic thinks.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
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Tony1963
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10-31-21 10:11 AM - Post#2830007
In response to wagonman100
What the sister "says" is testimony and information. Saying the vehicle has the original engine vs applying the numeric standards are not the same.
My response is based upon the numbers not matching. You are correct that the mechanic might be reading the numbers wrong.
As far as shops who would change major parts, while it is possible, unless there is a documented case where that happened, I'd have to say it is likely to be another story floating around. I'd doubt that the average person with the skill to swap these out would do so and be open to felony charges.
| People fear change because it threatens what they know, or what they claim to know. |
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elcamino
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11-03-21 09:50 AM - Post#2830158
In response to Tony1963
If the engine block was replaced under warranty they the original engine is gone. They would not re-stamp it as that would be against the law.
If she is the original owner then she should have original documents and Protect-O-Plate warranty booklet with engine and trans options.
Mike
2024 GMC 4WD Sierra Denali 3.0L/10-sp
2022 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Ride Command
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elcamino
Member #185
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11-03-21 10:07 AM - Post#2830160
In response to elcamino
the wrong engine was put in the car.
That never happened as every engine was sequenced to the line. They arrived from overhead conveyor as the car came down the line so the wrong engine was not possible as it would shut down the line. These plants built other models besides Camaro on the same assembly line intermixed with each other. Camaro, Impala, Belair etc.
Chevrolet Overview
Body Bank: Receives the body shell from Fisher, separates them by major Chevrolet equipment and option content, and schedules them in "locked" sequence to the Chevrolet Trim Line; VIN number assigned and specs for each car are "broadcast" to subassembly and feeder lines throughout the plant.
Trim Line: Stamps hidden VIN numbers, installs dash mat, heater or A/C system, wipers, pedal support, instrument panel and wiring, steering column, front carpets, console, brake booster, rear bumper and guards, rear shocks and fuel tank, and sends the body to the Final Line for
Body Drop.
Engine Line: Receives engines and transmissions from six different supplier plants and joins them, stamps VIN derivatives, fully dresses and wires/plumbs the engine, engine and trans oil fill, and sends the completed assembly to the Chassis Line.
Chassis Line: Starts with the bare subframe mounted to a carrier truck, and to this is added the front suspension, steering gear and linkage (caster/camber set in a machine), rear axle, fuel and brake lines, exhaust system, master cylinder (brake system bled/tested), engine/transmission, and propeller shaft. The power steering (if applicable) was then filled and the assembly sent to the Final Line for Body Drop.
Paint Shop: Takes the raw front end sheet metal panels (hood, fenders, header panel, front valance, inner fenders, radiator support) from the stamping plants, welds the fender reinforcements to the fender skins, and cleans, phosphates, primes, seals, and topcoats the outer panels; cleans, phosphates and dip-primes the inner fenders and radiator support. After painting, all panels are conveyed to the Sheet Metal Line. Also has a low-temp paint system for grilles, consoles, steering columns, ashtray and glove box doors for delivery to the Trim Line, and a wheel system that primes and paints wheels and conveys them to the wheel & tire assembly area.
Sheet Metal Line: All the painted front sheet metal panels are assembled into complete front end assemblies, including wiring, radiators and shrouds, inner fenders, grilles, and headlights, which are conveyed to the sheet metal installation area on the Final Line after Body Drop. Some plants install the front end sheet metal as a pre-assembled unit (less the hood), while others install the radiator support first, then the fenders. Hoods are assembled separately.
Final Line: The body is "dropped" on the chassis, subframe and rear springs and shocks are bolted-up, master cylinder is attached to the body or booster, mount/balance and install wheels/tires, front end sheet metal, front bumper, battery, fill cooling system, evacuate and fill A/C system, gas fill, car start, auto trans top-off, window sticker and P-O-P, drive off, toe-in set, roll-test, final inspection and repair, deliver to truck or rail shipper.
Mike
2024 GMC 4WD Sierra Denali 3.0L/10-sp
2022 Polaris RZR XP 1000 Ride Command
2017 John Deere X738 |
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wagonman100
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11-04-21 08:45 AM - Post#2830210
In response to elcamino
That was why I said it would be extremely rare. I once owned a 1975 Monte Carlo that had a factory anomaly. I bought the car to get the engine to rebuild for my Malibu. I couldn’t find anything that matched up with the code on the block (I never checked the VIN sequence). I was trying to get my car emission exempted by putting in an older block. You could still do that back then. I went to the dealer to do the i.d. And they came up with it was a 1974 police only block. Thicker walled block and thicker main bearing webs. I guess they had leftover ‘74 blocks and were putting them in ‘75 vehicles.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
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Tony1963
Frequent Contributor
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Loc: Orlando Florida
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11-04-21 02:22 PM - Post#2830228
In response to wagonman100
I've heard so many stories over the years that I believe what you can prove. There is always someone who has some factory one-of claim. I even heard a guy years ago who claimed to have special ordered a 1978 Chevrolet Caprice with a "special order" 454 engine.
I also agree that the wrong engine being installed in the vehicle is not likely. Even if it were true, how would you prove such a claim?
Lastly, an engine block re-stamped is not illegal. You own the engine block and if you want to stamp HICKORY DICKORY DOC on it, it is yours to do.
It would be fraud to stamp it with the intent to convince someone that it was something that it wasn't. The art of faking stampings on engines is good enough to fool anyone.
| People fear change because it threatens what they know, or what they claim to know. |
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Litman
Newbie
Posts: 4
Reg: 03-14-21
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11-18-21 06:31 AM - Post#2831039
In response to Tony1963
Hello, Native ID number can be destroyed due to various reasons. It can simply rot from time and road adversity. It can be damaged in an accident, and when restoring the car, it can completely replace the marked body part. The car can be stolen, and the hijackers, before being caught, can destroy the real VIN and fill a new one. There were many ways to legalize such machines. Even in registration certificates, so-called inserts were made - photographs of VIN indicating what to consider as an identification number this particular image. To be honest, I would not buy such suspicious cars. Even if I buy a used car, I definitely check its Vin number, just for self-confidence I look at the designations of the numbers of its Vin number in the catalog at https://www.sunsigns.org/angel-number-333-mean ing/... If these numbers are lucky for me, then I can be calm.
Edited by Litman on 11-19-21 01:07 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Chevyfan60
"21st Year" Silver Supporting Member
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11-22-21 02:22 PM - Post#2831286
In response to Chevyfan60
Just some follow-up on this story. My sister was able to order this car through Logan Military Sales because my dad was military. I remember when she got it in 1970. It has never been out of her possession for any long length of time. I too had the thought that maybe the mechanic was looking at the wrong numbers. However on the www.chevy-camaro.com website/forum it says having the engine code in the VIN didn't start until the 1972 for Camaros. So that would also explain the 1970 engine number doesn't match the VIN.
Michael
1960 Impala 348, 1960 El Camino (x2), 1960 Nomad, 1992 S-10 Blazer, 2001 GMC Sierra 2500HD,
2002 Trailblazer |
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wagonman100
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11-26-21 10:50 AM - Post#2831454
In response to Chevyfan60
You are thinking backwards. That is, you are talking about the engine code being in the VIN visible through the windshield. So the VIN will only tell you if the car was a 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder before 1972, but the engine can still tell you if it is original to the car. The last sequence of numbers of the VIN should still be stamped into the block on the pad in front of the passenger side cylinder head for a V8. Do you have access to the car to check the numbers? You may need a rag and some brake clean to see the numbers clearly. No matter what engine (small block, big block or straight 6), the partial VIN should be stamped in the block.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
|
Tony1963
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Loc: Orlando Florida
Reg: 07-09-18
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11-28-21 04:22 AM - Post#2831506
In response to wagonman100
I think that we all agree that the engine is NOT original to the vehicle.
How and why it got changed is anyone's guess.
| People fear change because it threatens what they know, or what they claim to know. |
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wagonman100
Site Ambassador
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Loc: Baltimore, MD
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11-29-21 09:43 AM - Post#2831564
In response to Tony1963
I don’t agree that the engine isn’t original. No one can make a reasonable judgement on that until the numbers on the block are compared to the numbers in the VIN.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
|
Tony1963
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2448
Loc: Orlando Florida
Reg: 07-09-18
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11-29-21 02:17 PM - Post#2831575
In response to wagonman100
My bad - I thought that we had already done that?
| People fear change because it threatens what they know, or what they claim to know. |
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wagonman100
Site Ambassador
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Loc: Baltimore, MD
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11-29-21 02:50 PM - Post#2831577
In response to Tony1963
Not as far as I can tell. He just was thinking that the car was too old for the numbers to be matching, but was a little confused. The car is too old for the VIN to tell exactly which engine it was built with. Her VIN only indicates if it came with a V8 or I6.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
|
Chevyfan60
"21st Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 994
Loc: Longmont, CO
Reg: 04-19-01
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12-22-21 12:18 PM - Post#2833071
In response to wagonman100
Ah, ok. I'll have to check for that last sequence of numbers. The car is currently in the shop being stripped and repainted so it'll probably be a while. We have no reason to believe the engine isn't original other than one guy at the shop said the "numbers didn't match". Thanks for the info
Michael
1960 Impala 348, 1960 El Camino (x2), 1960 Nomad, 1992 S-10 Blazer, 2001 GMC Sierra 2500HD,
2002 Trailblazer |
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wagonman100
Site Ambassador
Posts: 15802
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
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12-22-21 07:47 PM - Post#2833096
In response to Chevyfan60
Please let us know when you can get access. I’m really curious what numbers the guy was looking at.
Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier |
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