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Username Post: What is it ?        (Topic#361929)
joeblow55 
Poster
Posts: 73

Reg: 05-03-10
07-27-20 03:09 PM - Post#2799687    

I have what I "think" may be the original engine from my 66 impala. But I'm not sure exactly what I have, as during the clean-up I have noticed a couple of strange things.
engine block: 3858180 Ser # stamping: TI223HCH date code: L 17 5
Cyl. head (Drivers side): 3890462 date: L 15 5
Cyl. head (Passenger side): 3782461 date:L 18 5
Going by the date codes on the castings (all mid December 1965), this would seem to be a very early 1966 327, with an "unmatched" set of heads ?? Is it possible that the 461 and 462 head castings were used interchangeably during assembly at the engine plant? I also noticed that the crank snout was never tapped for a harmonic balancer bolt, and I don't think I've ever seen that before. Any of the experts on this forum have any ideas? If it IS the original engine from this car, how do I verify or cross reference the engine to the car's VIN or build date ? Since it's a good runner, maybe it's worth keeping...







 


docjns1 
Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 90
docjns1
Loc: upstate NY
Reg: 11-12-19
07-27-20 06:08 PM - Post#2799700    
    In response to joeblow55

block casting is correct late '65-'66 327, head castings are correct/interchangeable 'camel hump'. Date code 'L' is November as the letter I was typically not used so as not to confuse with #1. 'T' should have been Tarrytown assembly plant, 1223 is engine build date,"HC" code is '66 327 w/powerglide, I believe also a 4bbl car.
Do you have any other identifying pprwk, documentation, etc?
How complete/original is the interior?


Steve
*********
'65 Impala SS, Crocus Yellow/blk
327 / 300 L74
M11 3 on the tree
12 bolt 3.31 open dif


 
wagonman100 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 14618
wagonman100
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
07-27-20 06:57 PM - Post#2799704    
    In response to docjns1

Would the T been for Tarrytown or Tonawanda? Since Tonawanda was a powertrain plant. And yes, the early 327 had no balancer bolt.

Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.

1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier


 
aghaga 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2276
aghaga
Age: 65
Loc: Altavista, Va.
Reg: 07-05-08
07-27-20 07:58 PM - Post#2799709    
    In response to wagonman100

HCH would be correct for the 327 w/powerglide and AVS carb (same bolt pattern as a Holley)



 
docjns1 
Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 90
docjns1
Loc: upstate NY
Reg: 11-12-19
07-28-20 03:35 AM - Post#2799719    
    In response to wagonman100

Jay, further digging into my reference material and you're correct re : Tonawanda

Also found reference to the carb as coded H for Holley on the protect-o-plate but find nothing else to verify that


Steve
*********
'65 Impala SS, Crocus Yellow/blk
327 / 300 L74
M11 3 on the tree
12 bolt 3.31 open dif


 
joeblow55 
Poster
Posts: 73

Reg: 05-03-10
07-28-20 10:28 AM - Post#2799757    
    In response to docjns1

Guy's ... thanks for your replies ! Very good info there, and I never thought to look at the protect-o-plate, (which I have with the title in my basement "office"). I read somewhere that the double hump 461 and 462 castings are slightly different in the area of one of the valves (intake I believe ?)and that the spark plug hole location is a little closer to the deck. For that reason I was unsure if these heads were used interchangeably at the engine assembly plant. Being that the date codes are within a couple days of one another, made me wonder if they actually used them interchangeably ... That doesn't seem to make sense to me from a manufacturing point of view, but what do I know ? (that's why I come here seeking knowledge)The interior is original and complete, although somewhat "tired"... a good cleaning and some armour-all will make it good enough for a "driver" since I do not have budget for a completely new interior. That said, I have never come across a build sheet for this car hiding out under the rear seat or behind any of the interior panels... I assume that's why one of you asked that question. Now, what to do about the harmonic balancer bolt Any suggestions ?



 
joeblow55 
Poster
Posts: 73

Reg: 05-03-10
07-28-20 03:07 PM - Post#2799778    
    In response to docjns1

...Also, to clarify regarding docjns1 (Steve's) reply above, "1223 is engine build date,"HC" code is '66 327 w/powerglide," etc...
the first two stamped characters on the even cylinder bank are "TI". I'm going to check that protect-o-plate when I get home for sure and cross reference it to the actual engine block. Let you know what I find out...
Thanks guys
Joe S.




 
jktucker92 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 392
jktucker92
Loc: West Richland, WA
Reg: 02-05-17
07-28-20 03:42 PM - Post#2799783    
    In response to joeblow55

My '66 327 came from the factory with no harmonic balancer bolt. I don't know when it was added to newer small blocks, but I know mined doesn't have one. Build date is Feb '66, and since my dad bought it new, I know it's original. In the 90's I noticed that the engine lacked a bolt and was worried that it had one originally and had broken off. The old machinist I went to told me that was normal and not to worry about it. The balancer is held on by an interference fit, and it didn't need one.



 
steve65 
"5th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 877
steve65
Age: 62
Loc: New Westminster BC
Reg: 09-25-13
07-28-20 05:19 PM - Post#2799794    
    In response to jktucker92

The 283/327 balancer really didn't need a bolt cause as you say they were press fit, but they were also like, what, less than an inch thick?
When they got to the 350's with the much larger balancer, maybe they figured they should bolt that puppy on?
Maybe??
Steve

Steve Duncan
66 Impala 2dr Coupe
Not sure of color yet
work in progress



 
joeblow55 
Poster
Posts: 73

Reg: 05-03-10
07-29-20 11:24 AM - Post#2799841    
    In response to steve65

Interesting observation ... I looked up that info on the protect-o-plate ... long story short, it is the original engine for the car. The 2nd character on the engine block stamping is clearly the letter "I" but on the protect-o-plate it is the number 1 ... seems like a harmless oddball mistake, I guess. For the balancer, what would be the correct way to install it, given there was never any threads in the crankshaft snout for a harmonic balancer bolt ? I have always read and heard that you NEVER use a hammer to install the balancer. I've always drawn them onto the crank snout by slowly tightening the bolt ...




 
Bob S. 
Member
Posts: 135

Loc: Slidell, LA
Reg: 11-21-04
07-29-20 11:41 AM - Post#2799843    
    In response to joeblow55

  • joeblow55 Said:
For the balancer, what would be the correct way to install it, given there was never any threads in the crankshaft snout for a harmonic balancer bolt ? I have always read and heard that you NEVER use a hammer to install the balancer. I've always drawn them onto the crank snout by slowly tightening the bolt ...




That's the proper way, but if you don't have a threaded crank snout, either drill/tap it or install it with a percussion tool. While not the best practice, it can be done by applying force only to the hub center, never to the outer ring.

Bob



Bob


 
sz0k30 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 479
sz0k30
Loc: Oakland Co., Michigan
Reg: 10-12-08
07-29-20 02:13 PM - Post#2799857    
    In response to Bob S.

You put a 2x4 on the face of the balancer & pound it on with a BFH.



 
steve65 
"5th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 877
steve65
Age: 62
Loc: New Westminster BC
Reg: 09-25-13
07-29-20 02:28 PM - Post#2799859    
    In response to sz0k30

Yup, pretty much. There is no rubber inner ring to damage like on the bigger balancers.

Steve Duncan
66 Impala 2dr Coupe
Not sure of color yet
work in progress



 
BigDogSS 
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4816
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
07-29-20 02:35 PM - Post#2799860    
    In response to steve65

FWIW, my 1967 327 did not have a bolt on the harmonic balancer. And it did come loose. The engine was a rebuild of unknown quality, so I had it rebuilt. The machine shop drilled and tapped the crankshaft snout for a bolt.
I'd install a bolt.

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible 327 - Ermine White C1 - VCCA Senior Award
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS Sport Coupe 396 - Marina Blue FF - personal "barn-find" lol



 
joeblow55 
Poster
Posts: 73

Reg: 05-03-10
07-30-20 02:35 PM - Post#2799936    
    In response to BigDogSS

I'm leaning heavily in BigDog's direction. I don't even want to think about what could happen if that balancer were to fly off ! Anyone think it's possible to thread the crankshaft snout for the balancer bolt without disassembling the engine ?
Like I said before, it's a good strong runner, and doesn't smoke...there's some signs that someone has been through this engine before I got the car, so I'm guessing this thing has been "rebuilt" to some extent... with 121,000 on the odometer, this thing was probably "freshened up a bit" years ago. I have no idea of the mileage since the "rebuild", but I pulled the intake the other night, and it's fairly clean on the inside...not all full of sludge and what-not. Compression test is next on the list. The original balancer has some hammer dents on it from someone previously hitting it on with a hammer, so I don't mind replacing it but I want to avoid taking the engine apart to thread that crank snout if possible. Thanks all for your replies. You have been helpful.

Joe S



 
craig32 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1316

Age: 58
Loc: PA
Reg: 08-05-07
07-30-20 03:46 PM - Post#2799942    
    In response to joeblow55

  • joeblow55 Said:
Being that the date codes are within a couple days of one another...


And to be assembled a whole month later? Pretty sure they were cast in December, not November. I have a block with an 'I' casting number. Also quite possible one head was replaced, and coincidentally has a similar date code. Anything could have happened in the last 55 years.


66 Impala (in progress}
56 Stepside shortbed
55 Bel Air sedan
81 Corvette
02 Monte Carlo (bought new)


 
Texasray 
"4th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 115
Texasray
Loc: Texas
Reg: 11-01-16
07-31-20 09:10 AM - Post#2799986    
    In response to craig32

Small Journal cranks did not have a balancer bolt. Once you get to the large journal 350 cranks (1969?) the factory started drilling the crank and installing a bolt. If you heat the balancer, I use a toaster oven and use a 2x4 block or other suitable protection for the balancer it will not come off unless it was a loose fit to begin with. Which is why it takes a puller to get t off, same as one with a bolt.
Now I have heard of some dumb *** honing out the balancer because he thought it was to tight. Didn't stay on. :nahnah :

Sam



 
59fins 
Member #212 "19th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2365
59fins
Age: 60
Loc: Surprise Az USA
Reg: 04-07-00
07-31-20 09:11 AM - Post#2799987    
    In response to craig32

  • craig32 Said:
  • joeblow55 Said:
Being that the date codes are within a couple days of one another...


And to be assembled a whole month later? Pretty sure they were cast in December, not November. I have a block with an 'I' casting number. Also quite possible one head was replaced, and coincidentally has a similar date code. Anything could have happened in the last 55 years.



"T1223HCH" this is stamped on the protecto plate?
What is the casting date on the motor?
If it looks like it may of been taken apart at some time, someone probably picked a used head up in the "55 Years" I agree, coincidence on date codes.
what is the intake casting and date?

And yes, anything can happen, my 67's protecto plate agrees with the stamp on the block (T0830GF) cast H2766, block casting # 3896948, all casting dates and build date were 8-26-66 thru 8-28-66 built 8-30-66 yet the car was built fist week of June 67'.
It is supposed to be first in, first out, but I think my motor must of been first in last out...

Covin's book of numbers mentions the block casting, and has no information on it. (at least the version I have.)

Bill H.
67 Impala SS




 
wagonman100 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 14618
wagonman100
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
07-31-20 07:24 PM - Post#2800041    
    In response to 59fins

I once bought a ‘75 Monte Carlo just to get the engine for my ‘76 Malibu. I was trying to i.d. the motor for emissions exemption and could not find the code anywhere. So I went to the dealer to have it identified. Turned out it was a 1974 police only block. They must have had left over blocks from the previous year and just stuck them into new cars. I never checked the head numbers or the build date of the car to see if it was an early build.

As for the balancer, I did have one come off before. To this day I don’t know how it happened. I noticed my drive belts were loose One day, so I tightened them. Nothing unusual there. But after about 20 miles I noticed the temperature climbing and the gen. light came on. I pulled over thinking I threw a belt. I opened the hood to find the balancer and puller laying on my sway bar. The bolt had apparently come out and the leverage from me tightening the belts pulled the balancer off. The engine still ran okay, but it ruined the crank snout. The keyway was ruined. The crank would need to be replaced. Luckily I was having a new engine built for my El Camino (the engine had already been in my Malibu, my ‘72 Monte Carlo and then in my Elky after 13 years).

Jay
Friends don’t let friends drive Fords.

1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon
1957 Cameo Carrier


 
elcamino 
Dedicated Member
Posts: 5460
elcamino
Loc: Lake Superior-Michigan US...
Reg: 03-30-00
08-01-20 07:46 AM - Post#2800066    
    In response to joeblow55

TI223HCH
T - Tonawanda NY Engine Plant
12 - Month of Dec 1965
23 - Day
HCH- 1966 327-275hp 4B(Holley),PG, PASS Car

Production demands source 2 carbs, HCH = Holley, HCR - Rochester. They used different intake manifolds.

Souce - Lime Book

The Chevrolet engine plant designations are as follows:
F = Flint, MI (1955-1966)
V = Flint, MI (1967 and up)
T = Tonawanda, NY
K = St Catherine, Ontario, Canada
S = Saginaw, MI
M = Mexico

The letter ‘I’ is used to represent a ‘1’.


Note - Everyday there were engines that got pulled off the conveyor line for every reason you could think of and got sent to a repair area to be fixed. Sometimes they sat for weeks or months until they were repaired and shipped. So who knows what ended up where?



Mike
2017 GMC Sierra Denali Ultimate 6.2L / 8-sp Z95
2017 John Deere X738 Snow Blower
2018 Polaris RZR S 900 EPS
2016 Polaris RZR 900 EPS


 
vet65b 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 645
vet65b
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Reg: 02-09-06
08-01-20 06:14 PM - Post#2800107    
    In response to elcamino

Guys,
I know most of this discussion deals with midyear passenger car SB motors. I agree that 327 and 283 PASSENGER car motors had press-on balancers, but all midyear HP 327 motors ( 340 hp, 350 hp, 360 hp, and 375 hp motors) had the balancer bolted to the crank. These motors were for use in Corvettes only.
To the best of my knowledge no 283 ever had a factory bolt-on balancer. Bill

Bill Wilhelm
1965 Impala SS
1966 Corvette, ordered for my 23rd. birthday


 
joeblow55 
Poster
Posts: 73

Reg: 05-03-10
08-06-20 04:30 PM - Post#2800471    
    In response to vet65b

So, show of hands... do the collective wisdom here think it is possible to drill and tap the crank snout (7/16 - 20 thread, I believe) with the bottom end of the motor still assembled ? Am I wrong in thinking the journal SURFACE is hardened, but the center of the shaft should be able to be drilled and tapped ? If the crankshaft is hardened throughout, it might be a job for an experienced machinist, who has all the proper tools. Just FYI though, I am no stranger to drilling and tapping holes. There is a center drill feature in the snout of the journal, so getting the drill centered should not be a problem. If I break a tap, the crank will have to come out though.



 
vet65b 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 645
vet65b
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Reg: 02-09-06
08-06-20 08:23 PM - Post#2800481    
    In response to joeblow55

Joe,
I successfully drilled the crank snout on a 1959 FI Corvette (290 HP), the engine was mounted in it's chassis but the body was not installed. Two of us did the job, me operating the drill and looking down to keep the drill from drifting left/right while the owner watched from the side to ensure the bit stayed level. We used a new drill bit and plenty of tapping oil. As you mentioned, the counter sunk front of the crank helped greatly. All in all not a bad job. Good luck! Bill

Bill Wilhelm
1965 Impala SS
1966 Corvette, ordered for my 23rd. birthday


 


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