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Username Post: Lenoir Progress        (Topic#357726)
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
08-19-19 01:15 PM - Post#2773582    

Where I’m at in my glacial progress:
Last year I got most of the body down to bare metal and have been fighting off the flash rust ever since, trying to arrange the time and resources to get it in primer before digging into the bodywork in earnest.
Now, years ago I found a product called rust-bullet, A rust encapsulator/preventer. Heavy duty stuff; they use it on bridge piers, boats and what not. I did the floors, new and existing and it really is bullet proof. When I got the roof fixed, after the car had been outside and roofless for two years, there was 2" water on the floor and not a sign of rust anywhere.
SO - I use it sparingly here and there now where there's stubborn rust dimples I can’t grind or acid out.
f'rinstance the fin edge here, and the area behind the trim at the belt line. and the seam where the rear panel meets the trunk floor panel. lotta rust in those non-treated, non-drained seams.
It sprays nice and can be topcoated. My Plan is to now sand this down a bit, wash everything AGAIN and finally shoot the PCL PolyPrimer. Makes Sense? Good? Bad?


Attachment: P1240514.JPG (4.3 MB) 5 View(s)




Attachment: P1240515.JPG (4.02 MB) 5 View(s)






 


59fins 
"19th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2243
59fins
Age: 59
Loc: Surprise Az USA
Reg: 04-07-00
08-19-19 02:28 PM - Post#2773589    
    In response to 59Lenoir

Although the rust does not appear to be deep, make sure you grind / sand it wit at least 80 grit w/DA, I'll admit it's been a while since I painted, but I always used PPG, and the way it was used was once you had bare metal, even if you had to body filler over it, you sprayed DP40 or DP50 or DP? ?) or? depending on color it is now I believe DPLF40 I think 40 was red, 50 black etc. and it had a hardener in it, also used it as a sealer before painting, but I am sure alot has changed since then with waterborne paints etc. and PPG was high then it is really high now.
Moral of story, use what is used on cars as a base, what they protect bridges with may lift your new paint, then you would be P*%#*(@@@!!
It's kind of like lacquer in the old days, if it were fairly fresh, or laquer primer wes used and you put a newer urethane or before that ...(cannot think of the name /!!!) errr anyways it could lift on you, it is usually a good idea to stick with one brand from start to finish, may seem like a good idea in the beginning, but also could be the start of a redo, and some may lift after a while, lifting of the paint means the paint or primer underneath is not made for your use, and if you have never seen lifting paint, it can be a nightmare, depends on humidity temp, and if a thinner is used what temp of thinner or reducer. my 2 cents

Bill H.
67 Impala SS




 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
08-19-19 05:38 PM - Post#2773609    
    In response to 59fins

2 cents always appreciated!



 
lone star 
Contributor
Posts: 207

Reg: 08-24-08
08-20-19 04:00 AM - Post#2773628    
    In response to 59Lenoir

  • 59Lenoir Said:
Where I’m at in my glacial progress:
Last year I got most of the body down to bare metal and have been fighting off the flash rust ever since, trying to arrange the time and resources to get it in primer before digging into the bodywork in earnest.
Now, years ago I found a product called rust-bullet, A rust encapsulator/preventer. Heavy duty stuff; they use it on bridge piers, boats and what not. I did the floors, new and existing and it really is bullet proof. When I got the roof fixed, after the car had been outside and roofless for two years, there was 2" water on the floor and not a sign of rust anywhere.
SO - I use it sparingly here and there now where there's stubborn rust dimples I can’t grind or acid out.
f'rinstance the fin edge here, and the area behind the trim at the belt line. and the seam where the rear panel meets the trunk floor panel. lotta rust in those non-treated, non-drained seams.
It sprays nice and can be topcoated. My Plan is to now sand this down a bit, wash everything AGAIN and finally shoot the PCL PolyPrimer. Makes Sense? Good? Bad?



bare metal should be coated in epoxy primer, before polyester primer. 80 grit , then epoxy, ,then poly. then filler work. you can filler work over epoxy but epoxy doesn't really feather out. its not exactly designed to sand. so, after your fill work is done u can reduce the epoxy and use it as a sealer before basecoat. SPI makes a great epoxy, and reduced 20% for a sealer, sprays out very nice before basecoat.



 
beagrizzly 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2098
beagrizzly
Age: 69
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
08-20-19 05:03 AM - Post#2773637    
    In response to 59Lenoir

59,
Good to see any progress, even "glacial" is better than none!
I found a string on here sometime back that dealt with long term bare metal preservation. It was a dupont product. I will go back through my records to see what it was. The results are amazing. It leaves the metal in the bare state, and the rust doesn't come back for months. I live on the coast of Texas, so rust is something I fight every day.
With this stuff, I take it to bare metal, spray with a pump up sprayer, and forget it for a long time. When I am ready to prime, I just lightly hit it with an orbital sander, and prime.
Check this stuff out. I may get some myself. It looks like it may be the same thing that I have.
https://picklex20.com/
This stuff from Eastwood.com looks like it might help as well.
https://www.eastwood.com/metal-wash-7-oz.html


Griff

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
08-20-19 05:37 AM - Post#2773642    
    In response to lone star

I keep hearing this, epoxy first....
I gotta ask what the point of it is: What does it do that the poly doesn't?



 
59fins 
"19th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2243
59fins
Age: 59
Loc: Surprise Az USA
Reg: 04-07-00
08-20-19 11:55 AM - Post#2773686    
    In response to 59Lenoir

Not sure what poly is/ poly urethane? it is usually a top coat, the bottom coat is usually an epoxy like the DPLF-40 (for example) from PPG, pick your paint system and stick with it, or you may not guaranteed, have problems down the road.

May be the difference if you are keeping your car or not, saving a little now may cost you allot later,
Base- epoxy "Pick your brand"
body filler - not a cheapo filler.
Epoxy bare metal spots from doing body work, such as around dents.
Primer- use a heavy filler primer same "brand" as epoxy, or light fill primer depending on your style of body work with same "brand", heavy fill tends to show body work with filler in long run.
Then usually you seal the sanded product (panel) with epoxy of the same "brand".
Paint base color coat of same "brand"
Then use your urethane clear coat of the same "brand".
Unless! you are not using a clear coat, I believe color comes as a Urethane as well.
Some call it a "paint system", if you have problems, you can go back to the company that sold you that "brand' and then at least you have an argument if there is a problem.
Mix and match work if your doing cars you are possibly selling, but if you are planning on keeping the car Google painting a car under DuPont, or PPG, or what ever they sell these days, it is a big investment, yet usually the quickest operation of the investment because its all in the preparation.
Hope that make sense! Does not pay to cut corners and using brand x over brand z is cutting corners, works for some, just not me

my 2 cents

Bill H.
67 Impala SS




 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
08-20-19 12:08 PM - Post#2773687    
    In response to 59fins

By 'poly' I meant Polyester (high build) primer; the “heavy filler” kind you mention.
My question remains what benefit does epoxy primer have over this type alone?



 
59fins 
"19th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2243
59fins
Age: 59
Loc: Surprise Az USA
Reg: 04-07-00
08-20-19 05:22 PM - Post#2773706    
    In response to 59Lenoir

a polyester filler is more on less a spray on filler/ bondo if if you will, epoxy attaches it's self to the metal substrate 80 grit was mentioned earlier for a a good bite.
What happens when you put plastic, / bondo filler over bare metal, it allows water or humidity to creep under the filler, almost like a spider web, then the filler becomes loose, or in this case the properties in polyester do not have what epoxy does, now again, it all goes back to prep, if you pop rivet a panel on and put plastic/ bondo over it, moisture gets to the back side of the panel and rust runs everywhere. same principal but sometimes it takes absurdity to explain what is absurd. (example of pop rivits)
YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BASE "poly" is not a base. EPOXY is, just that simple, not sure how else to explain it.
Not all Epoxies ("BRANDS") are the same, so you want what works what you will put poly over, or you may be back to step one, starting over.

Bill H.
67 Impala SS




 
59fins 
"19th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2243
59fins
Age: 59
Loc: Surprise Az USA
Reg: 04-07-00
08-20-19 05:42 PM - Post#2773707    
    In response to 59fins



Attachment: l_side_up_12.04.02.JPG (488.11 KB) 4 View(s)


here is example, epoxy under filler, then after filler was done I re-epoxied it. as at the time PPG said to do.


Attachment: r_qtr_in_first__coat_of_primer_11.30.02.JPG (459.31 KB) 6 View(s)


then a PPG primer was used after epoxy was resprayed. keeping your materials as thin as possible, low buildup.


Attachment: 11-29-02_qtr_rt_primer.JPG (537.8 KB) 4 View(s)


car in primer, borrowed rotessiore, my garage in my back yard


Attachment: 11-29-02_primer_r_qtr.JPG (473.93 KB) 5 View(s)


the red primer is the epoxy as a sealer


Attachment: IM000003.JPG (501.24 KB) 3 View(s)


painted, sanded buffed ready to be set back on frame


Bill H.
67 Impala SS




Edited by 59fins on 08-20-19 05:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
59fins 
"19th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2243
59fins
Age: 59
Loc: Surprise Az USA
Reg: 04-07-00
08-20-19 05:59 PM - Post#2773712    
    In response to 59fins

That's my story and I am sticking to it, restoring cars is not my job but I wish it were

Attachment: IM000016.JPG (503.18 KB) 4 View(s)




Attachment: 59_frame_l_frt.jpg (98.17 KB) 4 View(s)




Attachment: 1.26.03__metal_prep_fenders.JPG (532.29 KB) 3 View(s)


Really before you put epoxy on you should wash the metal with metal prep (whole other story)


Attachment: IM000005.JPG (493.7 KB) 3 View(s)




Attachment: IM001393.JPG (231.31 KB) 6 View(s)


The only regret I had was over re-storing it, cause I did not want to drive it, scored 996 at Late Great Chevy, highest score at show and I drove it from Iowa to Tennessee, no trailered cars scored higher, drove it to back to the 50's in Minneapolis St. Paul and got a rock chip on the way back, and that was that, I was driving a trailer queen and sold it so I could build another car I could drive.


Bill H.
67 Impala SS




 
lone star 
Contributor
Posts: 207

Reg: 08-24-08
08-21-19 04:39 AM - Post#2773738    
    In response to 59Lenoir

  • 59Lenoir Said:
I keep hearing this, epoxy first....
I gotta ask what the point of it is: What does it do that the poly doesn't?




listen to what 59fins is saying. it is great advice, I mean just look at the finished product...

the pot life alone between epoxy and poly primer, or 2k primer says it all. pot life for poly primer is like what, 20 mins before it starts getting hard? depending on temp....epoxy pot life is like 3 days....

I am working on a 61 right now that has been in epoxy for years. and shows no signs of failure. I have friends that have had projects in epoxy for 10yrs...looks same as the week is was sprayed...



 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
08-21-19 04:43 PM - Post#2773782    
    In response to 59fins

I think I got it!
Thank you for the explanation. All is clear now.




 
beagrizzly 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2098
beagrizzly
Age: 69
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
08-29-19 11:35 AM - Post#2774416    
    In response to 59Lenoir

epoxy actually seals the metal, where poly doesn't, very well.

griff

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
08-30-19 04:04 PM - Post#2774511    
    In response to beagrizzly

Gotcha. Proceeding thus.



 
TYTILIDIE 
"2nd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 219
TYTILIDIE
Age: 43
Loc: Colorado Springs
Reg: 10-21-15
08-31-19 03:56 AM - Post#2774541    
    In response to 59Lenoir

Nice job, car looks amazing!

1959 Biscayne with Impala Moldings, 5.3l LS Swap, 4l60e trans, factory PCM
1992 GMC Typhoon - Bowtie block and heads, forged everything, PTE76mm Turbo, 4L80E, Stock PCM's

"You'll never get anywhere if you keep starting over".

Me


 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
10-21-19 06:36 AM - Post#2778391    
    In response to TYTILIDIE

Thanks. got very lucky, sheet-metal-wise in most places (we wont talk about the floors...)

SO - after endless sanding and cleaning, it was finally PrimeTime (yes, EPOXY primer, based on the advice here!):



Attachment: P1250633.JPG (327.27 KB) 2 View(s)


bye bye bare metal!


Attachment: P1250643.JPG (292.97 KB) 2 View(s)


When I was 18 I'da called this "finished"!


Attachment: P1250642.JPG (241.66 KB) 1 View(s)






Edited by 59Lenoir on 10-21-19 06:37 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
60Impala1837 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 191
60Impala1837
Loc: Phoenix
Reg: 07-06-13
10-21-19 09:00 PM - Post#2778479    
    In response to 59Lenoir

Fantastic progress. I hope to get to bare metal and epoxy someday.....

Jim
'60 Impala Sport Coupe, 283/pg
Former:
'65 BelAir (355 / 350 hp)
'68 Caprice (donor)
My Pictures


 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
10-22-19 12:57 PM - Post#2778520    
    In response to 60Impala1837

Thanks!
(I've had this car 16 yrs.....)



 
PLS 
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1466
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
10-22-19 04:03 PM - Post#2778536    
    In response to 59Lenoir

Looking good! Do you remember sending this to me a few years back? ah, the moment of "turning the ratchet to 'ON'"
bravo!
Keep "it" on so that you can get to the point of really enjoying it. Lamar



 
59Lenoir 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1288
59Lenoir
Loc: Phila
Reg: 02-05-04
10-28-19 10:31 AM - Post#2778953    
    In response to PLS

Words to live by!!!
We'll get there my friend!




 
beagrizzly 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2098
beagrizzly
Age: 69
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
10-28-19 12:23 PM - Post#2778961    
    In response to 59Lenoir

WOW!!
59, Your paint booth looks just like mine!!

Griff

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 


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