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Username Post: Remote Oil Cooler - long lines        (Topic#356732)
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-08-19 02:54 PM - Post#2767969    

Would there be any problem with long hoses on an "Oil Filter Sandwich Adapter" type remote oil cooler? What I am concerned about would be the length of the hoses causing a reduction in oil pressure to the engine. I am considering a setup that would be round trip of about 20 feet of hose. Naturally, hoses would be kept from sharp bends that would reduce flow and protected from damage (thinking of routing them inside the frame).

Specific use - 64 Impala with small block 327 (bored/stroked to 383), mild cam, otherwise pretty stock. The goal is to reduce engine temperatures in hot weather with the A/C on in slow speed or stopped conditions. While maintaining a stock appearance.

- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 


grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17382
grumpyvette
Age: 71
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
06-08-19 03:51 PM - Post#2767971    
    In response to dcairns

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 06-14-19 08:18 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
100 CHEVY 
Dedicated Member
Posts: 6492
100 CHEVY
Loc: Helena,Missippi,U.S.A.
Reg: 12-09-04
06-08-19 03:56 PM - Post#2767972    
    In response to dcairns

Use hydraulic hoses.
My back-hoe has longer lines than you want and no problems,even with the much higher pressures.
Or,you can run steel lines.
Mike.

"You gonna leave it like that?
http://www.picturetrail.com/100chevy


 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 27644
Rick_L
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
06-08-19 04:35 PM - Post#2767974    
    In response to dcairns

First off, it's not something you need for low speed operation if you have an adequate radiator and fan setup. Oil coolers are for high speed/high load situations like road racing and circle track racing.

Second, why such a long run of hose? The cooler can be mounted closer than that.

All that said, you reduce the pressure drop by running large hose. -10 would be a good starting point, but almost any company that's selling oil coolers will be able to advise you what their setup needs.



 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-09-19 08:14 AM - Post#2768029    
    In response to Rick_L

Thank you grumpy. A ton of good info always seems to be at your finger tips

Rick-
I am trying to maintain stock appearance, so the cooler will need to be located inconveniently. It may work out shorter than that, I was padding it as such things always seem to work out in that direction.
Because I want to keep it looking stock, I am using the stock radiator, fan and water pump, despite having more cubic inches to cool. The radiator used on the 327/300 was used on the 409 as well, but with no AC, which I have. And I don't necessarily want to open the can of worms about things that might be making it run 'hotter', I have tried a lot of stuff already (HD fan clutch, higher pitch fan blade, no thermostat, electric fan, high flow water pump, etc)


As the links from Grumpy talk about, cooling the oil with a thermostatically controlled oil cooler is a great way to reduce the load on the water cooling system.



- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




Edited by dcairns on 06-09-19 08:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 27644
Rick_L
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
06-09-19 11:15 AM - Post#2768046    
    In response to dcairns

That's true if you're racing or towing, or some other high load situation.

Airflow to the radiator is the key to making the radiator cool at low speed.

What would you do about airflow to the oil cooler at low speed? The oil cooler isn't going to do any better than your radiator when there's a lack of airflow. And you can't just "hide" the oil cooler and expect it to work at all. It will need air too.



 
Mel Foye 
*VIP* Founding Member
Posts: 4844
Mel Foye
Reg: 09-29-00
06-09-19 12:43 PM - Post#2768052    
    In response to dcairns

Dave Have you used an IR gun, where and what were you readings?
From my experience on 6,000 mile summer trips with from sea level to 10,000 feet, 12 hour high speed Monte Carlo rallys, road courses and oval track, for your type of driving oil cooling would be the last thing I would consider.
What % of water to anti freeze do you run? What are the pulley diameters for your crank and water pump?



 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-09-19 06:16 PM - Post#2768070    
    In response to Mel Foye

Rick- Low or no speed is when I have the over heating issue. It can keep reasonably cool when on the freeway (assuming you could ever find an free flowing freeway in California). The design of the grill and shroud is not that good on the 64 Impala. But all that has been optimized as best as it can be and retain stock appearance.
The oil cooler would be tucked away with an electric fan to make it effective.

Mel- Been through straight water, no thermostat, etc. Currently run 50/50 water/anti-freeze. I would have to measure the pulleys.

I am considering an oil cooler, as it is a stealthy way to remove more heat from the engine when it is getting hot. From Grumpy's info, a proper thermostat on the cooler can allow the oil to get hot enough to purge moisture, yet start cooling things down when things start getting too hot. My biggest concern was causing an oil pressure drop with the longer lines. It sounds like that is not an issue if proper lines are used and the inside diameter is sufficient on the hose, fittings and cooler, so as not to impede the flow of oil.






- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 
Mel Foye 
*VIP* Founding Member
Posts: 4844
Mel Foye
Reg: 09-29-00
06-10-19 03:35 PM - Post#2768161    
    In response to dcairns

What are your water temps now and how much drop are you looking for with the oil cooler addition?



 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-10-19 06:25 PM - Post#2768178    
    In response to Mel Foye

In nice weather with no AC, it runs about 190-200 (thermostat temp is 190). Engine is happy at that range.
With 90 degree weather and AC on and not moving, it goes into run away over heating. I shut it down at 230-240 as I don't want to let things get any hotter. I have heard some say that it is "ok" to run that hot, but I do not agree. Popping the hood, the engine is HOT! It also causes issues with fuel boiling in the carb, that is a separate issue. I have used a IR temp reader on the thermostat housing, a radiator cap with a temp gauge in it and a electrical temp gauge inside under the dash(sender in the place of the idiot light temperature sender (on the intake manifold next to the oil fill tube). So I feel the readings are correct, not gauge error.

- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17382
grumpyvette
Age: 71
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
06-11-19 05:37 AM - Post#2768204    
    In response to dcairns

yes your correct, anything much over 220f is higher than ideal, and if you think about it the clue here is that it maintains temps while moving but over heats while stationary, this strongly indicates the lack of significant air flow rates when the car/truck is not forcing additional air flow through the radiator through its movement, you obviously need a larger radiator or a fan and shroud combo that sucks more air through the existing radiator when stationary,
adding an aux engine oil cooler with its own electrical fan will also reduce the heat load on the existing radiator.
obviously a new larger radiator is rather expensive, can you post pictures of the fan and shroud?
in many cases adding a matched clutch fan and fan shroud can make a big improvement in cooling and adding an aux oil cooler always results in a lower heat load on the radiator


read the linked info
(youll need to register once it takes 1 minute and its free)

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...



http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...



IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 06-11-19 06:48 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4241

Reg: 12-29-02
06-11-19 09:35 AM - Post#2768224    
    In response to dcairns

An oil cooler might help enough to be worthwhile if it say reached 220* and held that temperature, but it will not solve a run-away overheating issue like you described.

Look at the engine tune - the timing advance and AFR at idle can make a big difference in engine temperature.



 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17382
grumpyvette
Age: 71
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
06-11-19 09:45 AM - Post#2768226    
    In response to 65_Impala

agreed , Id be looking at the fan and shroud , and checking for trash in the radiator fins as a first step in solving the heat issue,
yes tuning issues could be an issue, as could a marginally defective water pump, slipping fan belt, low oil level in the engine, isolate and test!
I know my neighbors 1995 corvette had a cooling issue that turned out to be a bad sensor on the water pump, and a plastic bag it sucked up covering part of the radiator
a shop manual, code reader and multi meter could be helpful

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 06-11-19 09:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-11-19 09:49 AM - Post#2768228    
    In response to grumpyvette

Grumpy - I do agree, it is an issue with getting enough air through the radiator when the car is moving slowly or stopped. I have a higher pitched fan from a corvette installed, and also bumped it up from 17" fan to an 18" fan, so it fits tighter in the 19" shroud. One other factor to consider, I have a 700r4 transmission running through the stock cooler in the bottom of the radiator. I would not think it generates more heat than the original Powerglide, especially when stopped.

Currently I have an electric fan helping out. Carefully hidden in the far front of the shroud and painted black, you would probably never notice it till it comes on. It slows the over heating down some, but does not stop it.




Radiator is stock for a 327/300 or 409. Has 3 rows. I had it cleaned/rodded out before installation, so it is in good condition.

You can see the gap between the shroud and radiator, this is the way it they built them and would be hard to come up with a way of sealing that without looking modified. It might be possible to disassemble the shroud by cutting out the spot welds and reassembling it with a smaller gap.


Fan positioned 'half in / half out' of the shroud.



Stock style 5 blade clutch fan. 18" fan in a 19" shroud opening. This one is from a Corvette and has a bit higher pitched than the original.




I have even tried a Heavy Duty fan clutch, which involved modifying a fan blade (mounting hole locations are different). But the fan just roared VERY LOUD under normal (normal temperatures too) driving and I could even feel it taking power away when I tried to accelerate fast.
(stock on left, HD on right)






- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17382
grumpyvette
Age: 71
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
06-11-19 10:05 AM - Post#2768231    
    In response to dcairns

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

if it was my car id take very careful measurements and visit a local salvage yard looking for a compatible
or easily modified fan shroud, off a luxury car,
no one sees the fan shroud with the hood closed and 90% of the people won,t have a clue its not original,
if the hood open
hell I had a 496 BBC with a three deuce corvette intake in my 1965 lemans painted pontiac light blue,
and had 389 stickers on the valve covers and you would be amazed at the number of people,
that thought it was the original tri power 389 pontiac GTO engine
that looked similar to this picture

many full size pontiac, buick and caddys of the 1970s-1980s even 1990s had great fan shrouds,
Id bet it solve the issue and probably costs you less than $30 and a couple hours time,
keep the original parts if you ever sell the car,
but why deal with 50 year old technology when its an easily solved issue



btw some mopar big blocks came with 7 blade 20" clutch fans that can be modified to fit a chevy water pump and do a great deal better at providing air flow

most salvage yards will sell you those reasonably (under $60)



IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 06-11-19 11:06 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4241

Reg: 12-29-02
06-11-19 06:30 PM - Post#2768263    
    In response to dcairns

The shroud is terrible. Not sealed to the rad, doesn't draw air from the sides of the rad, too big for the fan diameter and the fan is too far into the shroud.

You may have to give up some of the original look and use different shroud. I don't see another easy solution besides building a sheetmetal shroud that looks original but checks all the want boxes.





 
scrambldcj8 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2489
scrambldcj8
Loc: Belchertown, MA
Reg: 04-06-03
06-12-19 04:10 AM - Post#2768290    
    In response to 65_Impala

I wonder if that electric fan in between the rad and mech fan is acting as a negative gain....impeding airflow more than it helps.....I guess combined with all the other inefficiencies in that original shroud design.

PS: I almost suggested a 19" 11 blade off a S10 4.3 w/AC painted black.....but oops that would be reverse rotation of what you need.

IF I recall Caddy had a 18-19" 8-10 blade fan that had an aggressive pitch that might be an option...I'll see what info I have and post up

Some info from Pirate....

Fans from a Cadillac el dorado running a 472 or a 500 are 18" in diameter and 3-1/4" high pitch 7 blade. blades are 5" across by nearly 5" long found this to work for all mechanical cooling using a 82-86 buick diesel severe duty fan clutch fits the stock shroud. Hayden Part number 2797

heres a link to the hummer fan 19.5" and 10 blade
that i used it pulled the fan blades a little further back from my radiator which helped with cooling since i was sucking too close to the core and not drawing air from across the entire core with my YJ frame swap i oriented the motor 3/4" further forward over the old cj setup. the fan is 19.5" in diameter the blades are 6-1/8" long 3.5" wide and have a 2-1/8" high pitch

now im no fan specialist but best i can tell the 472 Cadillac fan blades account for 25 cubic inches each x7 would yeild 175 cubic inches of surface area. the military diesel 92-94 hummer fan accounts for 21.4" of surface area per blade at 10 blades would yield 214 cubic inches of surface area. best i can tell the hummer fan which will bolt up to the 2797 fan clutch pulls more air and being a little shallower is easier to battle and work with. hole in my fan shroud is 21" and that may be too tight

Also on fan clutches they like to engage between 210-220 here is an article to address high engagement settings on factory thermostatic fan clutches and adjust them to get them to engage at lower settings you'll be amazed at the difference

re: H1 (Humvee) 6.2L diesels, verify fan rotation...can't recall if reverse rotation (serp) or not ATM....



Edited by scrambldcj8 on 06-12-19 04:41 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beagrizzly 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2059
beagrizzly
Age: 69
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
06-13-19 06:33 AM - Post#2768368    
    In response to dcairns

dcairns,
In looking at your pictures, I can't help but wonder if sealing the shroud would help pull more air.
The gaping holes on each side of the bracket, and the gap between the radiator and shroud will let a LOT of air get sucked in behind the radiator, not through it.
I stuck a 455 Buick into a 83 Regal in place of a 231 V-6. I used the factory radiator with the shortened fan shroud. I had some heating issues, but cured them when I put some foam insulation between the shroud and the radiator. It ran warm, but never got really hot. I live in Corpus Christi, so I have heat. Like heat index yesterday of 116!

It would be a cheap fix if it worked.

Griff

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-13-19 07:46 AM - Post#2768372    
    In response to 65_Impala

scrambldcj8- The problem with over heating predates the electric fan. The electric fan no doubt is a bit of obstruction when it is not on, but when the electric fan is on, it does help a bit.
Also I have an 18" fan in a 19" shroud. That is about as tight as you want to get as it only leaves 1/2 inch to spare between the fan and shroud given engine movement when operating.
The link to the info on setting the fan clutch temperature settings did not make it through. That might be interesting info.

I am kinda stuck to keeping the existing shroud. I went through a lot of trouble to make/keep this original looking. I even got a near perfect score at a judged event (the judges didn't look carefully enough under the car to detect the 700r4 vs powerglide (they both have squarish pans )

A few years ago, I did try putting some foam around the gaps and also tried some tape on parts of the shroud, however it just got blown off as I drove. I should see what I can do with the shroud. I went out and looked at the shroud some more, and I can see where I might be able to make a metal strip curved around the inside of the shroud. I also notice there is some room for the radiator core to be thicker. Perhaps a thicker radiator core might effectively bring the core closer to the shroud as well adding some more cooling capacity.
I think I will give another go at trying to close the gaps on the shroud. As mentioned, it is cheaper if it works.



- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 
japete92 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1240
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
06-13-19 09:37 AM - Post#2768376    
    In response to dcairns

  • dcairns Said:
Would there be any problem with long hoses on an "Oil Filter Sandwich Adapter" type remote oil cooler? What I am concerned about would be the length of the hoses causing a reduction in oil pressure to the engine. I am considering a setup that would be round trip of about 20 feet of hose. Naturally, hoses would be kept from sharp bends that would reduce flow and protected from damage (thinking of routing them inside the frame).

Specific use - 64 Impala with small block 327 (bored/stroked to 383), mild cam, otherwise pretty stock. The goal is to reduce engine temperatures in hot weather with the A/C on in slow speed or stopped conditions. While maintaining a stock appearance.




The 'dual' fan set up (electric and mechanical) can't be helping, and a 180 F thermostat should be better than a 190 F (I wouldn't run without a thermostat).

It won't help your stock appearance, but I would rather take the transmission out of the 'engine' cooling circuit and use a separate 'cooler' for it. If necessary.

My experience:

I have a '63 convertible with a 'mild' 383, 4 speed, no a/c, '409' radiator, no fan clutch, std GM shroud.

When I first replaced the 327 (it came out of a '66), I kept the 4 blade fan and everything was fine except if I got stuck in traffic, with outside temps over approx 90 F. Then the coolant temps would rise to about 220 F. Never for very long because with as little as a continuous 25 mph forward speed, the temps dropped back to 190 F (my thermostat spec, I have alum heads). I drove the car for about 2 years that way.

A few years ago I was read a quote from a GM manual (I did not save it and don't remember what manual it was) that stated the 'idiot' light began glowing at 240 F. At the time I considered the data reliable. It also matched my car because (with a real temp gage installed) the 'light' never glowed with the temps I was getting.

To improve (basically) 'idle' cooling, I installed one of these:

https://www.lategreatchevy.com/full-size-chevy-coo...

Worked for me. No fan clutch and air flow thru radiator is continuous. 'Idle' coolant temps (at +90 F outside temp) now stay in the 200 F proximity.

That fan is a little noisy so I considered going to these:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-5537?seid=s ...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-6717/recomm ...

Even though I expect the flow to be equivalent to the fixed fan, I decided to not fix what isn't broke.

I don't have A/C and I'm not cooling an automatic like you are. Can't say what I did would get you where you want to be. Just offering some ideas that may be helpful.

Pete




 
scrambldcj8 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2489
scrambldcj8
Loc: Belchertown, MA
Reg: 04-06-03
06-13-19 11:31 AM - Post#2768386    
    In response to dcairns

  • dcairns Said:

The link to the info on setting the fan clutch temperature settings did not make it through. That might be interesting info.






http://www.stl-vettes.com/65Vette/corvette_Misc /Im...


Maybe the 18" 7-blade 472/500 fan?

I still think the shroud has it's inherent inefficiencies.


Edit: Was just thinking about it some more. You want to keep as stock an appearance as possible and you said this..."You can see the gap between the shroud and radiator, this is the way it they built them and would be hard to come up with a way of sealing that without looking modified. It might be possible to disassemble the shroud by cutting out the spot welds and reassembling it with a smaller gap"....

How about just that? Looking at the photos would you be willing to (mod the existing shroud) extend the height (top and bottom) to cover the entire height of rad, fill in those "holes" in the 90* (where it mounts to rad), and fab an arch following the contour of the rad support and fan "cage" on the top and (I assume) on the bottom)? Pretty much what Grump showed with the plastic shroud in the pic above. So in essence a fully shrouded rad. Combine that with a 472/500 7-blade Caddy fan, air movement THROUGH the rad should improve?

I can't think of why that mild 383 should not cool while using a (non AC) 409 rad and not due to a poor tune, lean running, junked up water passages in rad/motor, weak water pump etc. An aftermarket alum rad powder coated flat/matt black possibly cooling better....?




Edited by scrambldcj8 on 06-14-19 04:22 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
5Larry7 
"16th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1965
5Larry7
Loc: Dallas, TX
Reg: 05-17-04
06-13-19 12:02 PM - Post#2768387    
    In response to scrambldcj8

FWIW, my Dodge Dakota truck came from the factory with an engine driven fan on a thermostatic coupler and a puller electric fan inside the shroud that only runs when the A/C is on. this truck has never even hinted getting over heated. I live in Dallas, TX so it does see some serious temperatures.

'57 210, 327 cid, Holley MPFI, 700R4, A/C & more.
'51 Studebaker Starlite coupe, 350, TH400, GV OD.
'96 Replica of a 1950's Teardrop Trailer.


 
TAT_2 
"18th Year" Silver Supporting Member, and Official CT Grim Reaper
Posts: 36026

Age: 66
Loc: "UNDER THE BOARDWALK"
Reg: 10-29-00
06-13-19 03:53 PM - Post#2768400    
    In response to 5Larry7



FACTORY OIL COOLER IN MY OLD 85 VETTE
U COULD PUT I OF THEM FINNED HEAT EXCHANGERS OVER THE OIL FILTER IF YA WANT ALSO.


09 PONTIAC- VIBE
08 PONTIAC- G6
93 VETTE - 40TH ANIV RUBY RED LT1/6SPD/RAG TOP
NEXT ?


*****
PREVIOUS VETTE'S 58,68,70,76,78,85,90
*****


Blessed are the cross-eyed, for they will see God twice


 
japete92 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1240
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
06-14-19 07:08 AM - Post#2768436    
    In response to scrambldcj8

"I can't think of why that mild 383 should not cool while using a (non AC) 409 rad and not due to a poor tune, lean running, junked up water passages in rad/motor, weak water pump etc. "

I do not think there is anything 'wrong' with dcairns stock cooling system. At idle, with the added loads from the auto trans, the a/c, and the very high outside temps, he's bouncing up against the systems capacity.

In my opinion he's faced with accepting it as is and turn the a/c off and roll the windows down (like many did 50-60 years ago) when he gets stuck in traffic (preemptively, prior to the temps getting high). Or, modify the system (several alternatives) to improve the air flow thru the radiator.

Personally, the 'modification' I would start with (keeping his goals in mind)is to remove the clutched fan and install a 6 blade fixed fan for driving. See what that does. It's cheap and easily swapped back to stock for show time. The fan clutch does nothing to improve cooling, it simply de-clutches the fan when it is not needed for cooling; allowing the torque to turn it, to be diverted to propulsion. Removing it also eliminates a possible cause (clutch malfunction) of his high temps.

I also would re-connect the idiot light and install an additional mechanical temp gauge. Also, something easily 'un-done/hidden' for shows. With both, I can watch the temps AND get a warning if I'm not paying attention.

Adding 'parts' that complicate (and add failure opportunities) the engine oil system is not where I would go.

Pete



 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-14-19 03:25 PM - Post#2768471    
    In response to japete92

Actually, even with the AC off, when stuck in traffic on hot days (90+) it will still over heat, just a bit slower.

I have actually tried a different fan, I forget if it was 6 or more, with no clutch. I don't recall how well that worked, but it was so horribly noisy and sucked a remarkable amount of power as the rpms went up to even modest levels, like 3000 rpm. It actually make me afraid something might break loose it made so much noise. I suppose a flex fan would be better in that regard. Come to think of it, the pre-restoration 350 based 383 I had in there, used a flex fan on the old 283 radiator. The corners had to be notched to clear the power steering pump shaft nut .

I actually do have the idiot light connected, after a fashion. I added a circuit that monitors the voltage on the electrical gauge and turns on at the desired point. I wanted the best of both, idiot light and a easily removed under dash gauge. I have verified the accuracy of the electrical gauge with a radiator cap with a mechanical gauge in it and an IR reading at the thermostat housing.

With all this discussion, I am now thinking
1) The clutch mod that scrambldcj8 linked. Cheap and easy to try and undo.
2) Try some more experiments to seal the shroud better.
3) Check the carb adjustment to make sure it has not drifted since I set it up. Perhaps run it a bit rich.
4) It might be cheaper and easier to hide a transmission cooler with some electric fans on it. The transmission lines come off the transmission from an area not easily seen. I can leave the stock lines in place, disconnected from the transmission and run new lines inside the frame up under the radiator. I don't know if this would take as much heat out of the system as an engine oil cooler, but it is worth a try.




- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 
scrambldcj8 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2489
scrambldcj8
Loc: Belchertown, MA
Reg: 04-06-03
06-16-19 03:52 AM - Post#2768533    
    In response to dcairns

  • dcairns Said:
Actually, even with the AC off, when stuck in traffic on hot days (90+) it will still over heat, just a bit slower.





I think something else is off? Curious, how many miles on motor since build?



 
japete92 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1240
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
06-16-19 07:47 AM - Post#2768551    
    In response to dcairns

In section 15 (the AC section) of the '61 shop manual there is recommendation to put the car in neutral (w/autotrans) when idling. There is also a procedure for adjusting the fan clutch to increase its efficiency (starts fan op up to 10 f sooner).

Those tips (there may be more) may be helpful to you.

Pete






Edited by japete92 on 06-16-19 07:50 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
dcairns 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2074
dcairns
Loc: Orange CA
Reg: 11-07-03
06-16-19 08:28 AM - Post#2768557    
    In response to scrambldcj8

It has 10,160 miles since the motor was built.

- Dave
1964 Impala 4-door sedan

_________
/ --------------- \
_/ /___________\ \_
/_________|_________\
|OOO ___________ OOO|
\______|====|______/
|_|------------------|_|




 
scrambldcj8 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2489
scrambldcj8
Loc: Belchertown, MA
Reg: 04-06-03
06-18-19 08:22 AM - Post#2768749    
    In response to dcairns

T-off from windshield wash pump an place misters in front of rad...for those times in need.



 


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