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Username Post: motor and transmission swap        (Topic#355585)
49betty 
Poster
Posts: 28

Reg: 12-01-18
03-11-19 05:10 PM - Post#2761869    

Hi guys. Looking for some help identifying the correct parts to use. Ive got a 49 styleline and am putting in a 261 inline. Ive got what I believe is a late 60s Saginaw 3 speed? 7 bolt side cover. Ive got the bell housing off the 261 that will mount to the transmission with a little bit of machining to fit the transmission input shaft housing. Needs to be enlarged about a quarter inch. I was wondering if I can use the 2 starters to make one to get rid of the foot pedal start. The 49 starter of course has a solenoid. And then there is clutch questions...



 

Chevs of the 40s

Bel Air kiwi 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4476
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
03-11-19 06:14 PM - Post#2761876    
    In response to 49betty

Hi 49Betty, First can you clarify if you are going to open driveline or going for the aftermarket conversion that mates the late 3-speed full synchro to your torque tube.

The matter of whether starter motors have foot activated solenoids (Mechanical.) or key/button activated solenoids (Electrical) is not the key issue.
What you must match up is the starter pinion to the flywheel ring gear. The six-volt parts won't work on 12v parts, and it is very expensive to have a starter modified for the different size pinion as GM made sure it did not interchange.

If you are staying with a 6V car flywheel you must use the six-volt starter, even if the car is 12V. It will last fine if you don't overuse it to prime the carb etc. You can also fit the 12V solenoid directly onto the 6V starter and it will be even less likely to have problems.

If the 261 is already 12V just use the starter and flywheel it came with.

If you are staying with the torque tube you want one from an auto/Powerglide car which has the 3.55:1 rear end. Currently, it will be 4.11:1.

The 261 is a truck derivative of the Blueflame and as such often had a larger diameter clutch than the car. You will need to redrill a car flywheel for the larger bolt pattern if it didn't already have the heavy duty option flywheel.

Also as you have Huck brakes you may want to consider some upgrades there as it will be quite a bit faster in going from 216" to 261" with a 3.55:1 rear.

If you need to open out the bell-housing hole a 1/4" that usually means you are trying to put a truck gearbox in a car bell housing.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 03-11-19 06:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
49betty 
Poster
Posts: 28

Reg: 12-01-18
03-11-19 07:01 PM - Post#2761886    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks Kiwi. So yes Im going to open driveline. Ive got a 4wd Blazer late 80s rearend. The car bell is of course too small for the transmission and the bellhousing Ive got originally was mated to the 261 and came out of a 58 chev truck. Both starters are 6v. I thought I could use the car bellhousing clutch flywheel and original starter until I switched the transmission to the late 60s 3 speed. And I do believe it came out of a truck. Got it from brother inlaw rebuilt for free.



 
49betty 
Poster
Posts: 28

Reg: 12-01-18
03-11-19 07:09 PM - Post#2761887    
    In response to 49betty

It looks to me that because the bellhousing is bigger off the 261 that makes the starter mounts further from the crankshaft center so I will have to use the larger flywheel and clutch out of the truck also. So Im staring at the two starters to see if I can split them and make it work? You are suggesting to take the solenoid off the 49 starter and put it on the 58 truck starter? Ive done a disc brake conversion to the front and will have the blazer drums in the back.



 
cbmkr56 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1126
cbmkr56
Age: 63
Loc: Basehor Ks
Reg: 02-11-13
03-11-19 07:19 PM - Post#2761889    
    In response to 49betty

Just use any 12 volt 235 solenoid type starter with the 261 flywheel.



 
56sedandelivery 
Dedicated Member
Posts: 5570
56sedandelivery
Age: 67
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
03-11-19 07:52 PM - Post#2761892    
    In response to cbmkr56

Truck or car; you're referring to a "foot starter", so it's a little confusing since you're in a car forum; there is a truck forum however (just went back and re-read, so we're talking about a truck here). Should be able to find a smaller diameter throw out bearing collar. If not, machine the collar, not the bellhousing (lot easier). If it needs a larger collar, there are adapter rings available from the scatter-shield vendors. 261 is what a lot of guys would die/kill for; you've got those guys attention for sure! Good luck with your project. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.




Edited by 56sedandelivery on 03-11-19 07:54 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4476
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
03-12-19 04:06 PM - Post#2761953    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

Hi 49Betty, As you stated in your original post that you have a 49 Styleline I am assuming you are dealing with a sedan.

You can not easily mix and match parts from the 6V and 12V starters. Except the solenoid. They are of the same design but GM deliberately made the shaft size, and perhaps the helix different so that parts will not interchange.

Ray was our guru on this but he has passed. From his postings I also understand that GM changed the ring gear tooth count and this means you must use a 6V pinion on a 6V ring gear and a 12V pinion on a 12V. In practical terms this means the flywheel that matches the starter.

6V pinions don't fit 12V starters, and vice versa. The solenoids do interchange and that is not even mandatory if you are careful.
I have had a 6V starter in my 261 powered 48 PU using the original bell and flywheel from the 216 dipper for over a decade. Ran it as a daily driver truck for many years. Still has 6V solenoid. Like many posters I would only put a 12V solenoid on this if the old one failed.

I am aware someone has had a combination starter made but it cost about $500.00 parts supplied.
In my view the best solution to a long starter life is electronic ignition, a sound battery and fuel priming.

It depends where you are in the world but the OE bells that fit this motor pattern have two different bolt patterns for the transmission.
Two different spigot hole diameters. (Car v Truck.) A number of clutch lever locations and positions, and various mounting tab styles including none.

If your Truck gearbox is a floor shift unit I would suggest you seriously consider getting an S10 5 speed instead. These engines work in a relatively narrow rev range compared to modern vehicles and get much better longevity and economy with more gears. Truck gearboxes with more gears get very bulky very quickly as you go into the 3/4 ton and up market.
However if you want to use what you have that will work.

Any competent machine shop can easily bore out the bell housing rear face to take a truck box, and aftermarket spacers are available to undo this later if you ever want to.

I haven't heard that truck flywheels are larger in diameter, but they can have a different clutch mounting pattern if they have the larger heavy duty clutch.

Cheers Kiwi

ps. As an afterthought the position of the transmission rear mount on the 3 speed was moved back a bit to make it common with the Power-glide. This was done about 51 so your chassis probably needs work to fit any later gearboxes.




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 03-12-19 04:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
eplantage 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2171

Loc: Southern MN
Reg: 03-15-04
03-13-19 04:35 AM - Post#2761973    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

The 6V ring gear has 139 teeth and the 12V ring gear has 168 teeth.

Age: 65 at the moment
1950 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery
1953 BelAir Convertible Project
2002 Heritage Springer FLSTSI
1930 Model A Standard Coupe


 
jeffery_1965 
Poster
Posts: 17

Age: 98
Loc: SW Washington
Reg: 03-28-17
03-13-19 07:52 AM - Post#2761983    
    In response to eplantage

Not sure if you want to go in this direction, but this is an option. I did this because of an issue with my starter not wanting to engage properly, which was starting to ruin the teeth on my ring gear. https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...



 
49betty 
Poster
Posts: 28

Reg: 12-01-18
03-13-19 08:05 PM - Post#2762030    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks Kiwi. Thanks guys. Yes it is a sedan. And I realize Ill have to do some chassis work for the rear gear box mount. Looking at the starters I had come to the conclusion I might have to try putting the older solenoid on the newer 12V starter. Just didn't know if it is possible. You must have to drill and tap the mounting bolts for the solenoid unless the outer casing is interchangeable. I could tell starter gears were different and read you had to match with proper ring gear. For some reason I thought the newer ring gear was a bigger diameter. I will check again. Thanks.



 
49betty 
Poster
Posts: 28

Reg: 12-01-18
03-13-19 08:09 PM - Post#2762031    
    In response to 49betty

Also to add to that I had my heart set on keeping a 3 on the tree set up. Am familiar with the S10 tranny as Ive put one in a 1950 5 window pickup that I have.



 
56sedandelivery 
Dedicated Member
Posts: 5570
56sedandelivery
Age: 67
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
03-13-19 08:52 PM - Post#2762033    
    In response to 49betty

Use the 216 bellhousing, it'll bolt to the 261, and you can still keep your stock 3 speed transmission. That's really the simplest way to retain your column shifter. You can update to a little stronger 55 and later 3 speed transmission, but it will also involve conversion to an open driveline transmission. Usually doing that will naturally have the rear brakes updated to Bendix brakes, because that's what they use, only you'll still have the "slightly less desirable" Huck brakes up front (good time to convert to Bendix or disc brakes up front?). Wnet back and reread all the posts, and see you've already done the disc brake conversion. There are lots of other ways to do this, but this is probably the simplest and most straight forward. I'm surprised no one has asked to see photos of what you're working with. Now, if you do use the Saginaw 3 speed, then you'll need to use the 261 bellhousing, but have the throwout bearing collar machined down if it's too big for the mounting flange 'hole", or use a ring adapter if it's too small (available from any scattershield manufacturer). Course you have to convert to an open driveline to use the Saginaw, or any 55 and newer transmission. And once again, I should have kept my 51 Bus Coupe!!! One more thing, 49betty, the avatar makes you sound female, so, are you female or male? Just curious.
I am Butch/56sedandelivery.




Edited by 56sedandelivery on 03-13-19 08:58 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 

Chevs of the 40s

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