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Username Post: Jag springs        (Topic#352750)
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
08-28-18 03:21 PM - Post#2744723    

I've installed an XJ6 front end into my '52 Business coupe following the guide lines by Kiwi and others on here. All went well.
But I have just put in the 250 and T700 that I am going to use and found that the springs did not deflect at all. If I stand on the front of the chassis (I'm 185pounds) it almost moves, if I bounce up and down it moves a bit. Not sure how much, maybe an inch if I'm lucky.
According to Google the 216 weighs 630lb, the 250 weighs 440lb and the Jag 605lb, so I guess it is not surprising, but what do I do now?
With Jag springs you can't cut them due to the shape of the ends. Is heating a coil an option or do I really have to consult a spring maker for custom made springs?
All suggestions appreciated.

Rickity


1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


Edited by rickityfifty on 08-28-18 03:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 

Chevs of the 40s

rrausch 
"14th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13898
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
08-28-18 06:03 PM - Post#2744742    
    In response to rickityfifty

DO NOT heat the coils. All you'll get is a lower, rougher ride and possible a wreck when the coil spring breaks. There is another way. I don't know what it is yet, but somebody here does.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
drtyler 
Contributor
Posts: 529

Loc: Georgia
Reg: 05-06-10
08-28-18 08:04 PM - Post#2744746    
    In response to rickityfifty

Do you have high pressure gas shocks installed (Bilstein HD, for example)? I know in my cars with these shocks, it takes a good bit of effort to make them move, much more effort required than with my '54 Chevy with Monroe shocks.

Is the suspension height correct, or is it too high?



 
53Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 277
53Chevy
Loc: Davenport, IA
Reg: 02-18-04
08-29-18 11:03 AM - Post#2744781    
    In response to rickityfifty

I have the XJ6 under my 53 Chevy with a 261 ci engine and 700r4 trans. With the stock springs I didn't like the stance, but it rode and drove great. At first I cut the springs 1 1/2 coils. But this made it ride like a lumber wagon. So then, I had a company in Kansas make me a new set of springs with the same compression rate but with a 2 in. drop in them. The stance is great and the ride is much better than the cut springs. What I did wrong this time was put a very stiff set shocks on it. I'm hoping that driving it will soften the ride up a little more. If not I'll go to a softer shock.



 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
08-29-18 03:04 PM - Post#2744797    
    In response to drtyler

Drtyler and 53Chevy,
at present it has no shocks at all. On the other hand it has no front sheet metal or fluids either.
I have spoken with local spring makers and another local guy who has used a few Jag crossmembers under various rods and they have said not to do anything until everything is back on it again.
I can get springs that are made for SBC coversion of an XJ6 that are both shorter and softer than the originals. They might do the job but I won't make the decision yet.
Thanks for your input.
Rickity

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
cbmkr56 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1072
cbmkr56
Age: 62
Loc: Basehor Ks
Reg: 02-11-13
08-30-18 08:39 AM - Post#2744860    
    In response to 53Chevy

I agree those Jag shocks take about 50 pounds to compress. There are a couple of different ways to raise or lower the front and make it ride softer or harder by removing some of the jag spring shims or adding some. 1/4" of shim under the spring adds 3/4" to the ride height and stiffens the spring. The front sheet metal will drop the front a lot.



 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
08-30-18 02:58 PM - Post#2744884    
    In response to cbmkr56

"The front sheet metal will drop the front a lot."


Thanks for saying that cabinetmaker. I was hoping that was the case but didn't know whether to believe it or not.

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
09-13-18 03:37 PM - Post#2746076    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety. By using the later 250 six you have shaved a couple of hundred pounds off the nose. Sure your trans will be heavier but that's about a third of the engine weight gone, so even if you stayed with the stock front end it would still be nose high.

The redone springs for the Jag to suit the small block are probably the best fix, but wait until you have all the front clip and a full radiator in place to get a baseline.

Some pictures would be great. Do you have any supplier info on those V8 jag springs?

Plan "B" may be to check the weight of the 292.
Its a tall deck version of the 250 and heavier. Just one engine mount is different from 230/250.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
09-14-18 03:35 PM - Post#2746177    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,

I plan to put up some pictures when I've finished messing around with the steering shaft and universals, and have everything set.

The springs are from a friend who bought them for a Willys project and found he did not need them.
I think they are "KING" brand. Lovells do them as well, and there are some others advertised on ebay that are 'heavier rate' to 'improve' handling. My car will be a cruiser, not a race car, so the lighter wire guage will suit me better.
I am committed to the 250 now, having done a bit of work to it. If I could have found a 292 when I was looking I would have gone that way. Nothing succeeds like cubic inches.


1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


Edited by rickityfifty on 09-14-18 03:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
09-16-18 07:29 AM - Post#2746311    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety, The 292 is supposed to be 530lbs dry so would getting up to SBC weight which normally sits OK with stock Jag springs. Not obviously lowered but actually functional road car stance.

If your King springs are a finer diameter wire they would normally be a lower pound/inch rating.
Anything that is supposed to stiffen the front end will usually be a higher pound/inch rating and something you would want to steer clear of.

Unfortunately, spring making is a dark art and you can do pages of calculations and get nowhere close. I have calculated out a car to need 140lbs/" and in practice, it worked best with 110lbs/"

Ideally, you want someone to wind you up some progressive springs for the Jag, but they are really expensive and it's probably cheaper to sell your 250 and buy a 292 and rebuild that.

I have never done it but you can set a jag front up into the frame. In this case, it is a lot of work as they are both top hat sections.
On a Pickup chassis, you can just notch and box the "C" section. The other thing you need to be aware of is as the Jag has a rear rack how much sump clearance you may have could interfere with being able to set the Jag member up higher to bring the nose down.

It depends on your certification rules but here a chassis kick up would get that problem resolved.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no readily available dropped spindles for Jags. They were made somewhere in Europe but they were really high dollar race parts.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 09-16-18 07:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-03-18 05:54 AM - Post#2747758    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Rickety, any progress on your ride height issues?

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-03-18 03:22 PM - Post#2747806    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
no, I won't be putting the front sheet metal, bumper etc back on for a while yet. I'm messing around with transmission selector cable, hand brake system and other fiddly bits that are required when changing from LHD to RHD. It's easier while the front is still "open".
You may be able to help with another question I will put up now about 1-piece or 2-piece drive shafts.
Rickity

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-05-18 06:10 PM - Post#2747944    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety, what are you doing for a RHD dash. I think I have a spare one in the shed. Its 49-50 style as they all were till 53-4 bodies.
I might also have a spare original pedal set.

Actually I have a complete spare bare RHD manual chassis but freight would be a killer.

You never want a drive shaft dead parallel as the lack of angular loads allows the universal bearings to float and chatter which kills them in short order.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 10-05-18 06:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-05-18 09:52 PM - Post#2747957    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
Thanks for the offer but I'm doing my own thing for the dash. The US version '52 dash is two 4 1/2" (from memory) guages, a speedo and a 4-in-1 whereas the RHD type was that big round one.
I did look at one of them when I first got the car but I like the US type better.
I'm using SPEEDHUT guages in the same basic size as the originals, mounted in a reworked glove box lid. On the LHS I will make a lid like a glove box but probably just covering AC controls.
SPEEDHUT is good because you can design your own, with different style pointers, colours and number fonts as well as KPH or MPH and degrees C or F.
Rickity

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-05-18 10:03 PM - Post#2747958    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety, My 52 and parts car Bel Airs are both LHD and will probably stay that way.
We only got sedans in RHD with the early dash. (You got utes as well.)

The smaller gauge 51-2 US models are easier to convert. The chassis around the pedals may have different features but you may not need those.
I can probably take pictures if needed.

Are you using a RHD original steering column, or something like a Holden for the top of the Jag steering?
It would be interesting to find a column with the Chevy trans shift pattern. That would make the cable hook up much simpler.
A good aftermarket top half may be a useful investment for the shifter, indicator, hazards and steering wheel choices.


Cheers Kiwi





48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 10-05-18 10:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-06-18 03:07 PM - Post#2747996    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
I've changed to a column from a VR Commodore bench seat ute. So I get the switches for all lights, wipers, cruise and the column shifter which now has a cable linkage. I did get the rod linkage from the commodore thinking the trans is the same, but it is actually a slightly different version. I am using a Dakota Digital selector indicator, the little round one that shows a P or R or D etc.
I also got the pedal box and brake booster so all of the parts there hold hands nicely with a little tweaking.
I know what you are going to say-- I should put up pics. OK soon.

Rickity

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-08-18 02:45 AM - Post#2748103    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety, Is the control of the shift quadrant in the column or the transmission?

I have done manual shifter to th350, and a friend has done 49 ford manual to C4, but I am not sure where the difference lies in your application?
The manual shifters don't have the detent and interlock in the column.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-08-18 02:49 PM - Post#2748165    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
The detent is in the top of the column, and the factory seems to have had a couple different switches- one at the top and one down on the trans.
That gave me something to consider for a while until I remembered that the Dakota digital selector indicator unit incorporates that inhibitor function and reverse light operation.
I used the same thing on my 67 panel truck and it worked well provided you mounted the sensor somewhere away from under the truck so it didn't get full of all the usual road crud, oil, water etc that coats the underside of a 50 year old vehicle.

Rickity

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-08-18 10:57 PM - Post#2748195    
    In response to rickityfifty

HI Rickety, what I am getting at is there is always a pattern (Quadrant.) that makes sure the turning of the gear selector shaft is matched to the number of degrees or angle the shaft should turn to select one gear only.

On the picture I put up it is item 24

Does your transmission have that?

Cheers Kiwi


Attachment: th700r4.gif (74.09 KB) 2 View(s)




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-09-18 02:18 PM - Post#2748256    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
Yes, the one in the trans has the notches so you can feel each position. The one at the top of the column in this case gives the pattern, so that you need to lift the shifter to get into reverse or park but you can slide between 3 and 4 for instance.

Rickity


1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-10-18 02:15 AM - Post#2748302    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety, it's only a problem if the top pattern won't let your cable select all the bottom quadrant pattern correctly.

I would describe what you have at the top as just lockouts so you can't easily shift into park or reverse while driving. If its PRND321 then as long as the lock-out at the top works for PR then the spacing of the other is usually something you can re-mark on the indicator.

Hanging out for some pictures!

Cheers kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 10-10-18 02:15 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-10-18 07:16 PM - Post#2748384    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
Both the column and trans are standard Commodore parts, so are perfectly compatible. It was just a matter of making sure the length of stroke was right.
This is getting a bit off subject, but just to finish it off, here are a few pics.
Rickity

Attachment: DSCF0092.JPG (439.5 KB) 0 View(s)


This shot shows the top of the selector cable, the Dakota Digital sender unit above it, the steering shaft which I'm still working on and the stainless steel tube which is my hand brake cable conduit.


Attachment: DSCF0083.JPG (452.48 KB) 0 View(s)


The trans end of the cable.


Attachment: DSCF0094.JPG (458.75 KB) 0 View(s)


Drivers view. The Dakota Digital selector indicator goes in the small hole. You can just see the re-used original hand brake handle.


Attachment: DSCF0078.JPG (469.77 KB) 0 View(s)


Commodore pedal box and column all connect together with extra bracing to firewall and dash edge.


Attachment: DSCF0091.JPG (471.91 KB) 0 View(s)


The L6 250 with serpentine belt, Fitech injection, lump ports, headers. Should work OK.


1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4401
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-11-18 07:41 PM - Post#2748475    
    In response to rickityfifty

Hi Rickety, that's nice. What commodore has the th700R that bolts up to the later chevy six.
In my time they were all Aussie autos.

I have the same throttle pedal in my old truck. Came from the last carburetted Commodore that had an unusual two barrel I put on the 261.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 10-11-18 07:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rickityfifty 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Memebr
Posts: 98
rickityfifty
Loc: south australia
Reg: 10-07-14
10-11-18 09:21 PM - Post#2748477    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Kiwi,
The t700 was used from the VN onwards behind the V6 and V8. They changed to the 'E' suffix electronic control somewhere in there, but mine is the earlier one. The bell housing bolt pattern is the same as T350, T400 and all the manuals.
Rickity

1952 Chevy Business Coupe
1967 Chevy C10 Panel Truck SOLD
2005 Holden Rodeo Pickup (Isuzu)
1923 Tbucket SOLD


 

Chevs of the 40s

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