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 Page 1 of 3 123
Username Post: Starting 64 SS        (Topic#352360)
Andy4639 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1165

Age: 58
Loc: Liberty, SC
Reg: 08-06-16
08-06-18 10:37 AM - Post#2742098    

I want to say first that the car runs fine and will crank fine if I drive it everyday.

What I want to know is there something I can do to get it to crank better after sitting a week are so.
Not the battery just the normal cranking it takes several times before it runs. Is there anything I can do to get it to crank quicker.

The fuel injection on the other vehicles has spoiled me.



1956 Bel Air - LT-1/4l60
1964 SS Impala -350 crate/powerglide
1967 Ramp truck - 350/ 4 speed
1971 C 10 - 6.0 LS / 4l80e 4:10 gears 30 years owner
94 Elderado
2000 S-10
2008 LTZ Tahoe
2011 Treverse


 




Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-06-18 11:52 AM - Post#2742102    
    In response to Andy4639

My experience is that it is inherent in older cars. The fuel in the carburetor leaks out or evaporates leaving a void until the fuel pump pushes enough to the carburetor.

With today's fuel being as volatile as it is, it works well in a fuel injected engine, but has problems living in a traditional carburetor.



 
55Brodie 
Contributor
Posts: 213
55Brodie
Age: 66
Loc: Little River, SC
Reg: 12-26-15
08-06-18 01:55 PM - Post#2742120    
    In response to Andy4639

Try a tankful of ethanol-free fuel, or prime the carburetor before starting. As Mercedes said, fuel is the culprit.



 
japete92 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1076
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
08-06-18 03:12 PM - Post#2742132    
    In response to Andy4639

Have you ever ran the car out of gas and put a couple of gallons in the tank? It will take some cranking to allow the cam driven fuel pump to get gas to the carb for starting.

The fuel in the carb bowl evaporates with my '63 every time it sits for a week (give or take a day or so). It takes some additional cranking to get the car started. If it bothered me (it doesn't), I'd pour some gas directly into carb prior to cranking.

It does not happen on modern fuel injected cars with electric fuel pumps because the fuel system remains pressurized when the car is shut off.

Pete




Edited by japete92 on 08-06-18 03:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Tri5man 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3676
Tri5man
Loc: Possums Crotch, KY
Reg: 06-26-07
08-06-18 03:31 PM - Post#2742136    
    In response to japete92

I sure wouldn't like to be pouring gas down the carburetor on a regular basis. A definite fire hazard. I've seen several engines back up through the carburetor with bad results.


Gary



 
japete92 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1076
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
08-06-18 03:53 PM - Post#2742139    
    In response to Tri5man

Gary,

I don't disagree. But for a car that is running great except just 'dry', a little gas (no more than would have been retained in the bowl) in the carb would 'replace' what evaporated from the bowl. Starting would be 'easier'.

As I said, that normal 'dry' condition does not bother me and I just accept it. That was my intended 'recommendation'.

Pete





 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-06-18 05:21 PM - Post#2742148    
    In response to japete92

I think that the day is coming where these cars won't be able to drive anymore. The next generation of gasoline being talked about will never work in a carburetor so every car prior to 1990, except fuel injected models, will sit.



 
japete92 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1076
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
08-06-18 05:35 PM - Post#2742153    
    In response to Mercedes

In my opinion, the issue in question is not fuel (quality); it's lack of fuel available to start the car. A fuel quality issue would be constant.

If you are saying 'modern fuel' evaporates 'faster' than the 'old fuel', I don't have a clue. What did Billy Joel say? "You may right, I may be crazy. But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for...'

But, I have read of some proposed 'fuel' changes that may make your prediction come true. Heck, if all the cars become electric, there is no reason to distill gasoline.

Pete



Edited by japete92 on 08-06-18 05:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Andy4639 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1165

Age: 58
Loc: Liberty, SC
Reg: 08-06-16
08-06-18 06:21 PM - Post#2742157    
    In response to japete92

Thanks, yes it's a dry carb condition that I was just wondering if there was something you could do for it. I understand the problem and know it has either leaked down are evaporate out.
I was just wondering if there was a fix besides as stated of pouring gas into it.



1956 Bel Air - LT-1/4l60
1964 SS Impala -350 crate/powerglide
1967 Ramp truck - 350/ 4 speed
1971 C 10 - 6.0 LS / 4l80e 4:10 gears 30 years owner
94 Elderado
2000 S-10
2008 LTZ Tahoe
2011 Treverse


 
EDR 
Poster
Posts: 41

Loc: SE WA
Reg: 05-22-16
08-06-18 07:33 PM - Post#2742165    
    In response to Andy4639

The simple solution is to run fuel with no ethanol in it, as 55Brodie mentioned.
Check out Pure-Gas.org or get the pure gas app to locate stations that carry it near you. It’s more expensive, about a $1.00/gal more, but it addresses the evaporation issue, doesn’t gum up the carburetor and won’t attack the rubber components in the fuel system. I only run ethonal free gas in my ‘64 with the 327 and Rochester carb, and no issues for the last couple of years.



 
Brian64SS 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1197
Brian64SS
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Reg: 09-30-00
08-06-18 08:00 PM - Post#2742168    
    In response to EDR

I only use ethanol-free gas and my cars start hard if they've been sitting for a week. The 283 in my SS is the very same engine, carb, everything from my folks '64 Bel Air. I don't remember it being hard to start back in the day but they drove it practically everyday back then.

Brian
1964 Impala SS, 283 (not original), 4-speed (26 years)
1964 Impala 4-door hardtop, 283 Powerglide (3 years)
They made a million but I only have two.


 
turbo38s10 
"7th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1586
turbo38s10
Loc: Agawam,MA
Reg: 09-17-09
08-07-18 10:34 AM - Post#2742210    
    In response to Brian64SS

The only thing I can think of is to add a low pressure electric fuel pump instead of the mechanical one. The pump will kick on when you hit the key and give you faster fuel pressure.
Otherwise consider that the way it is youe getting more oil pressure prior to start and maybe saving some where and tear on the motor.



 
Nitroholic 
"14th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 297
Nitroholic
Loc: Out West In SoCal
Reg: 05-08-03
08-07-18 11:29 AM - Post#2742213    
    In response to turbo38s10

Install an electric fuel pump next to the gas tank and use it in conjunction with your mechanical pump and use a manual switch to run the electric pump for a short time before you attempt to start the motor.
I've been using this arrangement on my ol' hot rod since before ethanol gas was invented and it starts like I turned the motor off 4 minutes ago instead of 4 weeks.

'66 C-10 Short Fleetside Big Window



 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-07-18 05:35 PM - Post#2742259    
    In response to Nitroholic

I've been told that the "ethanol-free" gasoline isn't really ethanol free as advertised. Just like milk that is "fat free" really isn't either. The amount is low enough to advertise as "ethanol-free".

I have also been told that regardless of the amount of ethanol that is in the gasoline, the new fuel blends and oxygenated fuels are higher in volatility than fuels of the 80s and 90s. So, as a result, if you keep them pressurized, they will work well. In a carburetor, not so much.

Those next generation of fuels are going to leave vehicles prior to fuel injection sitting on the sidelines. The electric fuel pump is probably the only way to go. In addition, I've seen fuel coolers like those that used to be factory on 80s and early 90s era Mercedes that run fuel around the AC suction line.

The underhood of a carburetted engine is going to look interesting in a few years.



 
Andy4639 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1165

Age: 58
Loc: Liberty, SC
Reg: 08-06-16
08-07-18 06:23 PM - Post#2742272    
    In response to Mercedes

I guess I'm gonna have to drive it more often
are do a LS swap one!

ARE BOTH!



1956 Bel Air - LT-1/4l60
1964 SS Impala -350 crate/powerglide
1967 Ramp truck - 350/ 4 speed
1971 C 10 - 6.0 LS / 4l80e 4:10 gears 30 years owner
94 Elderado
2000 S-10
2008 LTZ Tahoe
2011 Treverse


Edited by Andy4639 on 08-08-18 03:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27789
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
08-08-18 10:21 AM - Post#2742341    
    In response to Andy4639

As others have already posted, an electric pump mounted near the tank is likely to be your most effective fix. For safety reasons, a momentary contact (spring-loaded) manual switch should be used.

Operate the pump until the carb is filled before you crank the engine. Your stock fuel pump should be able to pull fuel through the electric pump once the engine starts.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
beagrizzly 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1888
beagrizzly
Age: 68
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
08-08-18 12:12 PM - Post#2742351    
    In response to Andy4639

Andy,

I'm really surprised that no one has actually told you what your problem is. I'm gonna fix that.

Your fuel filter has probably been changed out in the past by someone that didn't know there are two different filters. If you change it out strictly by price, the cheaper one doesn't have a check valve in it.

Here is the part number for the one with the check valve. Rochester OEM # GF-470

I will attach a picture.

What happens is the fuel drains back into the tank, sucking the gas out of the carburetor with it.
With the check valve in the carburetor fuel filter, it traps the fuel in the bowl.
The fuel still drains back into the tank, but you have now trapped enough fuel in the carb to let the car start.
When it starts, the fuel pump is running faster and can refill the bowl before the engine dies.

Voila!!

Griff.




Attachment: check_valve_filter.png (140.6 KB) 30 View(s)

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27789
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
08-08-18 12:37 PM - Post#2742353    
    In response to beagrizzly

You would be absolutely correct if a fuel filter were available on this planet that can prevent fuel from either evaporating or leaking out of the carb float bowl.

BTW, all diaphragm type fuel pumps have check valves in them that will prevent fuel drain-back. The pump wouldn't be able to work without them. If you aren't convinced, try blowing through a stock fuel pump backwards.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
japete92 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1076
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
08-08-18 01:17 PM - Post#2742360    
    In response to beagrizzly

Agree with Ray.

Also, the fuel inlet into the carb is above the level of the gas in the bowl creating an air gap. No syphoning possible.

Pete



 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-08-18 05:11 PM - Post#2742380    
    In response to japete92

Its getting to the point that the only way to get these parts anymore is online. Local stores don't want to mess with them anymore because they sit on the shelf forever.



 
Gabster 
Poster
Posts: 79

Loc: Oklahoma
Reg: 02-02-13
08-08-18 07:52 PM - Post#2742404    
    In response to Brian64SS

I also only use pure gas in my 61 Impala, but still have to crank awhile if it has sat for several days. As mentioned, that may be a plus, since oil gets distributed before engine starts. The old 283 has 85,000 miles on it and never been worked on ( valve cover gaskets once) and it still uses NO oil. Regular oil & filter changes all its life (max 3,000 miles) has been good insurance.



 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-08-18 08:27 PM - Post#2742412    
    In response to Gabster

Read my post above - there is no such thing as "pure gas" or "ethanol free" anymore so I am told by an industry expert.

Besides, the low ethanol content is more than offset by the newer formulas. What you used to run in those things hasn't been available in a formula for decades.

What we have today is barely going to work in a carburetted engine.



 
junky 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2684

Loc: Northeast CT
Reg: 06-27-10
08-09-18 02:08 AM - Post#2742436    
    In response to Mercedes

I was told by an industry expert that your statement was wrong. Does that make either your expert or my expert right or wrong? First hand knowledge that can be backed up with researchable and provable facts is the only thing that I am interested in. Anything else is just hearsay, and not admissible as fact!

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience.


 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-09-18 03:36 AM - Post#2742439    
    In response to junky

Please believe whichever story you choose.





 
Gabster 
Poster
Posts: 79

Loc: Oklahoma
Reg: 02-02-13
08-09-18 07:53 AM - Post#2742462    
    In response to Mercedes

By "pure gas" I meant the "ethanol free" type that costs 40 cents/gallon more.



 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-09-18 08:27 AM - Post#2742464    
    In response to Gabster

I saw the paperwork on the new fuels. The ethanol is not the big deal that everyone thought it was. The bigger deal is that the gasoline formula has changed a lot since these cars are produced. The fuels today are might lighter and more volatile even without ethanol.

You can buy whatever fuel that you want but it is not the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. This is the reason that so many have hard starting problems and other performance issues in hot weather.

But, I'm sure that there is a major oil company making a special batch of fuel for that guy with the special car.



 
Brian64SS 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1197
Brian64SS
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Reg: 09-30-00
08-09-18 08:28 AM - Post#2742465    
    In response to Mercedes

  • Mercedes Said:
What we have today is barely going to work in a carburetted engine.



Mercedes, not true. There have been times when my cars have run low and I wasn’t out in the countryside so had to put 10% ethanol in. Those times have been rare but when they happened, the cars ran great just the same. They just don’t start easy between drives. I'd rather not have ethanol, but "barely going to work" is more hype about original parts not being any good. If it isn’t carburetors, its drum brakes, points distributors or original transmissions. You don't have to know exactly how they work. You just need to take a few minutes and learn how to make an adjustment here or there.


Brian
1964 Impala SS, 283 (not original), 4-speed (26 years)
1964 Impala 4-door hardtop, 283 Powerglide (3 years)
They made a million but I only have two.


 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-09-18 08:34 AM - Post#2742467    
    In response to Brian64SS

I actually have an older car that is carburetted and there is no way to avoid the evaporation issue. I would say that barely working was a little on the extreme, lets just say that they don't work well anymore.



 
japete92 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1076
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
08-09-18 10:25 AM - Post#2742476    
    In response to Mercedes

  • Mercedes Said:
I actually have an older car that is carburetted and there is no way to avoid the evaporation issue. I would say that barely working was a little on the extreme, lets just say that they don't work well anymore.




Still not accurate. My '63 with a 4v carb runs great, all the time, on 93 oct 10% ethanol. If that's not 'work well', I do not know what is. Does it take a few more 'cranks' to start when it sits for week? Yes. But the behavior is exactly the same as when I would run out of gas back in the '60s.

My wallet was really light back then, and I ran out of gas more times than I would like to admit. But people would help a guy out more than they do today. It was not uncommon for a gas station attendant to 'give' me a gallon with a promise to pay him later (a promise I always kept).

The only point you may be trying to make that I can't dispute is that 10% ethanol gas MAY (emphasis) evaporate 'faster'. I simple do not know one way or the other. I basically don't care. The car runs great on the gas I give it.

Pete



 
Mercedes 
Contributor
Posts: 189

Reg: 07-09-18
08-09-18 12:09 PM - Post#2742491    
    In response to japete92

I'm not here to debate whether your car runs well or not. Why did you even bring that up???

My point was simply that the higher volatility of today's fuels is a challenge for older carburetted models.

If it wasn't an issue, there wouldn't have been this post in the first place looking for a solution.



 




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