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Username Post: Weld Nut on block? and PS stud        (Topic#352082)
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-18-18 06:23 AM - Post#2740390    

Hi - I am new to the forum. We purchased a 67 Impala 4dr sedan from a seller in FL. It has a 327 5.7L with the 2 speed Power Glide trans. My daughter wanted the Impala as she loves classic cars & music. The deal was she work on the car with me and that has turned out to be a good thing.

So the water pump started weeping really bad and then the serpentine's belt edge wore out and threw a rib - the belt didnt snap but caused the car to overheat as my daughter didnt watch the temp gauge. She was close to home so I dont think the overheat caused any damage. We had looked at the pulleys and the belt prior to this and they seemed to be running true but occasionally it would chirp.

In FL at some point a non factory AC system was installed and assume it was from some mid 80s-late 90s GM vehicle and now has a serpentine belt. We did notice when we got the car someone had jammed a incorrect sized flange nut on one of the power steering studs. That stud snapped. Im not sure if it snapped and that made the belt shred an edge rib or if the rib shredded and then the bolt snapped. So we removed the PS pump bracket which was loose because it also appears whoever put the non factory AC in welded a nut onto the block as a mounting hole for the transplanted PS/Alt bracket. The nut was welded just a bit above and to the right of the right hand mount for the water pump. There is some type of stud or snapped bolt in this welded nut (Im assuming its welded) and that was snapped when we bought the car.

So my first ? is do you think its welded or perhaps it was a stud drilled and tapped into the block and locktited in? I cut a screwdriver slot on this snapped bolt in hopes a large screwdriver would be able to turn it out - no luck. Any suggestions on how to remove since it is so shallow. I tried penetrating oils but no heat yet (I only have a small plumbers propane torch).

My second ? is I ordered some PS studs from Jegs and I did try and loosen the broken PS stud with a ratchet to no avail. I think they are threaded into the pump itself and there is an o-ring in the pump which seals the stud penetration. Do I just put an 18mm impact socket on it (thats what fits) and use my 20V impact wrench to get it off? How much torque do you use to replace the PS stud? and do you think it will stay sealed if I remove and replace just the stud?

I have attached pics of both the welded nut to the block and PS stud.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5n5ehtlrpono0s/Wel d%20N...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lfhrtg5ljvqr6vc/PS% 20stu...

I did take a straight edge and evaluate all the pulley alignment issues. The PS pulley was off so I decided to just pull that pulley and clean up the shaft and when we put it back we will match it to the crank when we reinstall everything. Is there anything I should coat the pulley shaft with on reinstall?

Also the water pump pulley is smooth so I ordered a reverse rotation water pump since the pulley spins CCW. Also we are in the North East so do you think I should put antisieze on all the bolts as they are reinstalled?

One other issue and possible cause of belt wear is that the car did not come with an Alt bracket. There is a threaded hole on the intake and back of Alt but because of the AC retrofit I dont think anything standard is available due to the size and arc of swing needed now. I did purchase a PS mounting bracket that I hope might work if I do some fabrication to it.

Hope this post is not too long - being my first post not sure how much detail is needed.
Thanks for your help Kev



Edited by kevaug on 07-18-18 07:53 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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jktucker92 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 204
jktucker92
Reg: 02-05-17
07-18-18 10:26 AM - Post#2740407    
    In response to kevaug

Another picture of the engine would be helpful. You stated that it's a 327 Powerglide, but also that it's a 5.7L. 5.7L is a 350, not a 327. I'm guessing that this really a 327, which is why it needed the nut welded on. I'm guessing that it's actually a bolt that was JB-Welded to the head to provide the missing mount stud, which is why you can't remove the stud from what appears to be a nut. All engines prior to 1969 did not have accessory bolt holes in the head, and don't accept modern brackets. Looks like the previous owner rectified this situation with some JB Weld in order to add A/C. As for the power steering broken stud, I believe those do come out and do bolt all the way into the pump. It's hard to grip the pump well enough to remove that stud sometimes. Usually a impact wrench would work to remove that.
Assuming my assumption is true, and it is a 327 without accessory mount holes, in order to do this right you have several alternatives. If you tried to return it to the way it was when you bought it would likely only lead to it breaking again.
One option is to replace all the bracketry with brackets made for heads without accessory mount holes. There are many options out there, including aftermarket serpentine systems, but complete original systems are not cheap and hard to find, and aftermarket systems aren't cheap either. Also, you would almost certainly have to replace the A/C compressor with a style used by the new setup.
A second option is to replace the heads with a set that has accessory holes that will locate your brackets properly. Basically, any 1969 or newer head would have the accessory holes, and most aftermarket heads. Obviously, you have to be careful of the chamber size to avoid changing your compression too much, but that shouldn't be hard to determine when you're looking at a set of heads.



 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-18-18 08:55 PM - Post#2740485    
    In response to jktucker92

Yes sorry 5.3L 327. I just ordered tie rod ends for a 4.7 L vehicle and the .7 got stuck in my head!

Here are two more photos of the engine -

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8wwnp4zo6rrjpi5/327 %205....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m452wvv61vi60x6/327 %205....

Wow Im surprised the JB Weld held better than the bolt shaft! Do you think I could take my cordless 20V impact to that JB Welded bolt as well? Would I need to apply heat to loosen the JB weld?

This PS/Alt bracket has two bolts in the bottom left that go into the threaded block. This JB Welded bolt is in the upper left. The snapped PS stud was in the middle on the right hand side and again there was no Alt bracket probably due to the fact that a standard one would not work.

The left hand side of the engine if you can see in the picture has 3 threaded studs coming out of the block on the right (1 upper and 2 lower) for the AC compressor/tensioner / idler bracket and they are coated in something orange/redish - I assume locktite. Other than those 3 studs, the other 2 tie downs are a mount off the intake to the tensioner and a mount off the exhaust manifold to the AC compressor.

What type of JB weld is typically used to weld a bolt to a block?

I like the idea of getting new heads with the accessory holes.
Thanks for the advice



Edited by kevaug on 07-18-18 08:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
jktucker92 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 204
jktucker92
Reg: 02-05-17
07-19-18 06:43 AM - Post#2740517    
    In response to kevaug

I'm surprised that JB weld held too. You could try hitting it with an impact wrench to see if it will break free, it definitely won't hurt anything. With any adhesive, it's weakest in shear. However, given that the bolt broke, and not the JB Weld, I'd expect that just hitting it with the wrench won't work. The JB Weld website says the only way to remove it is to grind it off or heat it over 600 degrees.
On the left side of the engine, the two lower studs are in stock tapped holes in the block. The upper stud isn't correct. Looking at the picture, it doesn't look like it's welded on. I don't think there's enough material there to drill and tap a hole, but I could be wrong. Who knows, maybe the other stud is also drilled and tapped into the head and there is a nut there that's used as a spacer.



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4049

Reg: 12-29-02
07-19-18 07:01 PM - Post#2740574    
    In response to kevaug

I expect you'll find the head was drilled and tapped for that bolt.



 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-19-18 09:08 PM - Post#2740594    
    In response to 65_Impala

Yes - here are pictures of the left (passenger) head and right (driver) head.
The Left head does have that top stud drilled & tapped into the head.
The right head you can see someone scribed a spot where they put the stud on the left head to mirror it but never drilled & tapped it.
So does anyone know if there is enough meat to actually drill & tap where that nut is that we think is JB welded on?
Would my propane torch be able to heat that to 600 degrees, I know the flame can be approx 3000+ degrees but dont know how long it would take that bolt head to reach 600. Would heat ruin the head? The intake is aluminum.
If that scribed spot is drill and tapable and that nut isnt tapped. Would it make sense to drill and tap that scribed spot, and then I could make a connecting rod out of some metal flat stock that would connect a bolt hole on the PS/Alt bracket to the newly drilled & tapped stud. There is another hole on the PS/Alt bracket already but it is above the JB welded nut by 2 inches.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mrnx7n9w2u3xzk9/LH% 20hea...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/846tam04xn3xnrh/RH% 20hea...




 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-23-18 10:41 AM - Post#2740898    
    In response to kevaug

Well finally got some time to work on the car.
That bolt head we thought that was actually JB welded to the car was actually drilled & tapped.
It looks like they were using a 3/8" x 16 course threaded power steering pump mounting stud there.

Ironically my power steering pump stud that snapped is metric M10 x 1.5. The ones I ordered were 3/8 as no size was specified so I thought it was a standard part but apparently in the 80s GM switch that PS mounting stud to metric. At least if I want to return it to the way it was I at least can use this "wrong" part!



Edited by kevaug on 07-23-18 10:43 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-25-18 09:44 AM - Post#2741132    
    In response to kevaug

Ok last questions before I attempt to put this back together. The right hand side PS/Alt bracket uses 2 bolts in the lower engine block holes and the recently figured out 3/8 PS pump mounting stud in that hole they drilled & tapped on the head. Would you suggest I just use a bolt instead of the stud here.

And the left hand bracket where the AC/tensioner is mounted has 3 studs. 2 studs in the lower holes and 1 stud in the drilled & tapped head.

My question is this bracket is not able to be pulled off with these studs due to the length of them. The bracket gets hung up on the lower rad hose outlet on the WP. So in order to remove this bracket currently you would always have to pull the water pump off.

So would you suggest removing all these studs that mate to this bracket and replace with bolts for ease of removal when the AC compressor needs to be replaced? (it does have a small leak)

Is there a reason for studs over bolts? Obviously this is a hodge podge mix, does one snap easier than the other? If bolts are better should I be using grade 5, grade 8?

Thanks for your help



Edited by kevaug on 07-25-18 09:59 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
jktucker92 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 204
jktucker92
Reg: 02-05-17
07-25-18 12:09 PM - Post#2741139    
    In response to kevaug

With either bolts or studs, you'll have to pay attention to alignment. It seems to me that the surface that is on newer heads is further forward than one without the accessory holes. For that reason, you'll have to space the brackets out. The power steering stud may be able to do exactly that by having the hex flange. With a bolt, you can always use a washer to space it out a little, but that may be difficult to install.
I do believe that the two lower holes typically have studs there, but that probably had more to do with ease of installation than anything else. There are reasons to use studs over bolts, but I can't think of one that applies to an accessory bracket other than ease of installation. I would use grade 5 bolts at a minimum. Probably don't need grade 8, but the grade 5 bolts would give me a little more confidence.




 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-25-18 02:29 PM - Post#2741152    
    In response to jktucker92

OK thanks that makes alot of sense with the alignment. I can see how the studs just let you hang it and bolt it easy and if you need any spacing you can simply add a washer without it falling into the engine!

I am still torn though as this setup is so unorthodox. That AC/tensioner bracket has the 2 studs on bottom and that was just nutted down onto the studs, same with the upper stud - no washers to set alignment. and then this main AC/tensioner bracket is further held by two custom made brackets that attach from exhaust manifold to compressor and aluminum intake on thermostat housing to back of tensioner. again no washer to aid in alignment just bolted on! I cant imagine that everything lined up perfectly with just bolting all this stuff on. Keeping your alignment comment in mind I think I should pickup one of those large assortment of washer packages.

If I do decide to take the bottom studs out I assume the orange stuff on the threads isnt Chevy orange paint but thread locker and I guess I would need to use heat on them to remove them?
Will the threads be all messed up inside if this is thread locker?

I am torn about leaving it as is or getting the two bottom studs replaced with bolts thinking then I can just swing the bracket on the top stud to the left and remove it without having to remove the water pump. Thinking swinging it would give me enough clearance from the WP hose outlet then I could pull it off the top stud.
But I wouldnt want to snap one of those studs off trying to remove it if it cant come out due to the thread locker. I lack experience and confidence!



Edited by kevaug on 07-25-18 02:37 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4049

Reg: 12-29-02
07-26-18 11:41 AM - Post#2741227    
    In response to kevaug

It's probably sealant on them.



 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-26-18 08:43 PM - Post#2741254    
    In response to 65_Impala

So when you say sealant do you mean those 2 lower accessory holes on both sides of the block have the possibility of having oil or coolant come out of them?

Is that the same issue with the 4 water pump bolts? When I pulled everything apart the two lower water pump bolts looked like they had sealant on them but the two upper WP bolts looked clean. Also the 2 lower driver side accessory hole bolts didnt appear to have any sealant but it might have had some oil on it if thats possible?

Should I be putting sealant on all of these bolts on reassembly?

Also I assume for the heater hose nipple I will use some Permatex liquid teflon. Does that hose nipple have any torque spec or do you just tighten it down snug?

Also my new water pump came with a plug in it with some type of orange/red sealant. Is there a trick to getting that plug out. Looks like it just has a 3/8" drive head.
Thanks



 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27662
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
07-26-18 10:17 PM - Post#2741259    
    In response to kevaug

The hole drilled and tapped in the head, does it go all the way through and into an area with oil or coolant in it? If yes, that's probably the reason for the stud - sealant usually works better that way. If the hole is blind, then I can't see any problem with using a bolt.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-27-18 06:48 AM - Post#2741275    
    In response to raycow

OK to the best of my ability with a harbor freight digital inspection camera this is what I think -
I will try and draw/label all accessory holes -

PASSENGERS SIDE

O - upper stud in head with sealant (not sure its tapped) The stud has a point (no threads) on one end and I think a point (no threads) just sealed into the head.

O - threaded stud with sealant (standard lower accessory hole on block) - I have tried double nutting this stud and applied 4 1/2 minutes of heat from a heat gun - the stud would not budge

O- threaded stud with sealant (standard lower accessory hole on block)

DRIVERS SIDE
O - snapped PS stud - no sealant on threads when removed but looks like I can see into head.

O - BOLT (standard lower accessory hole on block) looks to be blind

O - BOLT (standard lower accessory hole on block) looks like I can see OIL in the hole

WATER PUMP
blind O O blind water pump upper mounting holes
not blind O O not blind water pump lower mounting holes

let me see if I can attempt a picture with characters

O - stud/seal ________upper header line_____________O PS stud no seal not blind
_
_
______________O blind_______water pump___O blind
______________O not blind____water pump___O not blind
_
_
_
O - lower block access stud/seal_______________ O - lower block access BOLT blind
_
_
O - lower block access stud/seal_______________ O - lower block access BOLT not blind

So I have been trying to remove the stud in red with no luck. 4 1/2 min from a 1500W heat gun did not loosen sealant. I have not tried my propane torch yet. This car does have an electric fuel pump so the mechanical fuel pump is on the car but the fuel lines were disconnected by the owner in FL. Is there any issue with putting a flame on these accessory holes? Would the heat effect the timing chain cover/gasket?

Is there some standard picture of a SBC 327 that shows the accessory holes and whether or not they are blind or not? There is a number stamped on block above the left hand water pump mounting bolt - TI027HC (the 2nd character is the letter I, the 3rd character could be a ZERO or the letter O - not sure )

My goal was that if I could easily remove the 2 studs on the passengers side lower accessory holes I would swap them for bolts in the hopes I could then remove the bracket in the future without having to remove the water pump. I dont want to snap these studs so if I have to leave it the way it is I guess I will. Its some orange type of sealant which I assume must be pretty strong if it had to resist oil in any of those holes.





 
jktucker92 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 204
jktucker92
Reg: 02-05-17
07-27-18 07:30 AM - Post#2741280    
    In response to kevaug

The lower holes on both sides are stock. On early small blocks, they were used for the motor mount plate on cars such as the '57 chevy. By the '60's, they were used for the power steering bracket on the driver's side of the engine (if equipped), and the passenger side often used one hole for the battery ground cable. Of the stock hole locations, I believe three of them are blind holes, and the upper one on the passenger side actually is in line with the fuel pump pushrod. In fact, you have to be careful not to put a long bolt in that hole so it doesn't interfere with the fuel pump pushrod. You can use that hole to hold the pushrod in place for assembly if you're careful.
As for putting a cover in place of the fuel pump, you can absolutely do that if you're running an electric fuel pump. They make block off plates for exactly that purpose.
The bracket holes that are in the head would be blind if they were stock. It makes sense that there isn't enough material there for the holes in those heads to be blind, hence the sealant.



 
kevaug 
Poster
Posts: 9

Reg: 07-18-18
07-31-18 05:27 AM - Post#2741544    
    In response to jktucker92

OK, so I looked at the alignment finally (time is scarce theses days!).
I referenced off the crank pulley. The passenger AC/tensioner bracket was off by 11mm and the drivers side PS/Alt bracket is also off as well but the PS pulley wasnt really in the right spot to begin with. Whoever put it on never went past the spindle so I pulled it off and cleaned it up. When I put the PS pulley back on I will align it with the Alt pulley then space the bracket out to match the crank.
How critical is the alignment - does it need to be dead on or can it be off by 1 or 2mm?
Also I know the crank pulley has an angle to it as the engine itself seems to lend itself to that via installation making the top of the crank further in towards the interior of the car. Im assuming I should try and match this angle on the brackets as well with maybe an extra washer on the bottom bracket to kick it out if needed.

Also instead of trying to remove the studs what do you think of the possibility of trying to grind or cut the part of the AC/tensioner bracket that gets caught up on the WP lower hose outlet?
It seems there would still be a lot of meat left on the bracket and should still be pretty rigid or do you feel there is too much pressure from the belt tension and vibration?
I really dont know if that would be easy job or practical.
Thanks




 
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