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Username Post: Replacement motor question        (Topic#350550)
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-09-18 10:43 AM - Post#2730462    

I may have had a bearing go in my engine as it quit running and wont turn over at all. AS I tear into it to see what the issue is my question is this:

If needed do I rebuild this 216? Look for a shop that has one for sale?

Do I go to a 235? if so is there a specific year to get to match the engine mounts as closely as possible for my 50 style line.

Last would be, would that mean my carter carb that's on the 216 not be good for it, what else would not work that I would have to get new for the 235?

Sorry its a lot, thank you.





 

2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18482
2blu52
Age: 85
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
04-09-18 10:48 AM - Post#2730463    
    In response to beachb

A 216 rebuild could be very costly if it is a failed bearing. A switch to a 235 is what I would do. The 235 needs to be a 53 power glide engine not a manual. The Pg engine is full pressure and the manual is not. 54 engines are all full pressure. Mounts are fairly easy change over and there is a lot of information on that if you do a search. Most 235 engines mounting can be converted to your 50 mounts. You will need t change bell housing and the 216 will work.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-09-18 11:03 AM - Post#2730465    
    In response to 2blu52

Thank you,

I have seen 216 remans for 2100 and 235's for 1500. not sure why so mouch more but such is life. Thanks, I will look for a 54 235 engine and switch things over. If I get a new reman, am I in to getting new water pump or can I take the other off?



 
Sheldon Y. 
Contributor
Posts: 229

Age: 57
Loc: Waltham, Massachusetts
Reg: 10-29-16
04-09-18 02:04 PM - Post#2730476    
    In response to beachb

Within a short time you'll be getting so many opinions your head will be spinning!

Do yourself a favor and read this:
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/tech/engine-swaps...

There are many other Sites that offer the same information, but the bottom line is you want to upgrade to a 235. A full-pressure 1954 and up 235 will hopefully eliminate the worry of why your 216 failed, provide much better performance, and have parts more readily available.

Personally, I'd buy a remanufactured engine from a legitimate company, with a guarantee of no filled cracks, and a warranty.

Use your 216 Front Mount, and buy a short-shaft water pump. I've got an Intake and Exhaust manifold in good condition, from my '56 235. (I upgraded to a dual intake and headers).

'49 Styleline Deluxe Build@

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/49-sty...
http://www.frankenrodz.com/frankenstyle.html


Edited by Sheldon Y. on 04-09-18 02:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18482
2blu52
Age: 85
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
04-09-18 02:25 PM - Post#2730479    
    In response to Sheldon Y.

Excellent suggestion! I always seem to forget Langdon's and Patrick's web sites, age I guess.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
wbeaton 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 671
wbeaton
Age: 44
Loc: Hamilton, ON
Reg: 03-07-14
04-09-18 03:00 PM - Post#2730482    
    In response to 2blu52

  • 2blu52 Said:
Excellent suggestion! I always seem to forget Langdon's and Patrick's web sites, age I guess.



Your advice is still the best as the 1953-54 would be a drop in choice for a 1950.

1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 Door Sedan
1954 235 with Isky Cam, Shaved Head
Dual Carter YF 787S Carbs on Offenhauser Intake
Split Manifold Dual Exhaust
3 Speed with 3.55 Differential
12V Conversion with Alternator
Pertronix Ignition


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-09-18 03:09 PM - Post#2730484    
    In response to wbeaton

Thanks all, I will look for a 235 and then look for short shaft water pump as you stated. thanks.



 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27574
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
04-09-18 03:37 PM - Post#2730485    
    In response to beachb

In case this isn't completely clear, you will need a short shaft water pump with 55-up engines. 53-54 engines will work fine with their stock pump. Any of these engines will require two holes to be drilled in the front end plate for your stock 50 mounts. This is MUCH less work than swapping the plate from your 216.

Lastly, 53-up engines use a 3/8" fan belt and your 216 has a 5/8" belt. If you want to keep your 216 generator you will have to put a 3/8" pulley on it.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
wbeaton 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 671
wbeaton
Age: 44
Loc: Hamilton, ON
Reg: 03-07-14
04-09-18 03:38 PM - Post#2730486    
    In response to beachb

  • beachb Said:
Thanks all, I will look for a 235 and then look for short shaft water pump as you stated. thanks.



You don't need a short shaft water pump if you use a 1953-54 235. Also, I think using the water pump adapter kit is better than using the short shaft pump. The adapter kit allows you to use an off the shelf water pump. The short shaft pump is a modified water pump that you have to special order. Lots of info about it in the archives. With all that said, I wouldn't turn away a good 1955-63 235. It just wouldn't be my first choice. Good luck with whatever choice you make.


1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 Door Sedan
1954 235 with Isky Cam, Shaved Head
Dual Carter YF 787S Carbs on Offenhauser Intake
Split Manifold Dual Exhaust
3 Speed with 3.55 Differential
12V Conversion with Alternator
Pertronix Ignition


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-09-18 08:13 PM - Post#2730520    
    In response to wbeaton

Hi BeachB, If a 235 fits so does a 261 as they are the same block dimensions externally, but feature a larger bore, rod, different (Very Slightly) head and head gasket, cam and carb.

They are nothing like as common but came in bigger US trucks, School busses, some Canadian Pontiacs, and were carried on in South America for years after the US production stopped.

Also the GMC 270 and 302 bolt on at the back, from memory, but are longer at the front, so need work like a later engine around the front.

But all the above have been done here before.

The advantage of any of these motors if you get a full pressure one is they are more powerful and really respond well to the 3.55:1 Auto rear end as opposed to the old 4.11: you have.

The old dippers didn't get near 100Hp however there are lots of later variants including 105Hp, 115Hp 125Hp and up to a lazy 150 HP with twin carbs and a dual exhaust.


Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 04-09-18 08:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-10-18 06:39 AM - Post#2730548    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

so a recap for my 50 styleline manual trans

1. Get a 235 from 54 so it has the pressured oil
2. Don't get a powerglide motor as I would need to change transmission.

3. Will my current water pump from my 216 work on the 235? or should I get a new one?
4. intake manifold, bell housing and carb should all work on the 235 and I can just take off the 216. is this correct
5. mounts should almost match up and can easily be adjusted to make it fit

Thanks all.



 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-10-18 06:40 AM - Post#2730549    
    In response to beachb

my carb is a carter yf model single barrel.



 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18482
2blu52
Age: 85
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
04-10-18 06:49 AM - Post#2730550    
    In response to beachb

Water pump okay, Intake manifold will fit but with problems so use the intake on the 235, the carb bolt down spacing is different on the carter so you will need something else. There are choices. PG engine okay just change the fly wheel,use the 216 bell housing if necessary. so you can use a clutch. Pilot bearing is different between the PG and the manual transmissions.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-10-18 07:27 AM - Post#2730560    
    In response to 2blu52

ahh bummer I cant use that carter? Man I just got it before engine dumped.



 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-10-18 07:35 AM - Post#2730561    
    In response to beachb

as usual I have seen suspect info. I read that the Carter yf I am using on the 216 would work on the 235. This is not true?

What is the best carb for the 54 235 engine if the other wont work.



 
rrausch 
"14th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13849
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
04-10-18 07:47 AM - Post#2730563    
    In response to beachb

What is the number of the Carter YF? Some were made for 216 engines, some for 235 engines. But the YF's are very desirable, and can be sold on that auction site pretty easily. Or... if it's a 216 carb you could save it, find a matching carb, and run dual carbs on your 235.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27574
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
04-10-18 11:07 AM - Post#2730580    
    In response to beachb

  • beachb Said:
so a recap for my 50 styleline manual trans

1. Get a 235 from 54 so it has the pressured oil
2. Don't get a powerglide motor as I would need to change transmission.

3. Will my current water pump from my 216 work on the 235? or should I get a new one?
4. intake manifold, bell housing and carb should all work on the 235 and I can just take off the 216. is this correct
5. mounts should almost match up and can easily be adjusted to make it fit

Thanks all.


1. The 53 powerglide engine also has full pressure oiling, so you should add it to your list.
2. The rear face of PG and manual engines is identical. Your manual trans bellhousing and flywheel will bolt to any PG engine. The only difference is that you will need to install a pilot bearing in the PG crank. This is easy.
3. Your 216 water pump will bolt onto any 54-earlier 235. However, the 216 pump pulley is designed for a 5/8" belt and a 53-54 235 pump uses a 3/8" belt. In order for a belt to work, all the pulleys on the engine must be the same width. In other words, to use the 216 pump on a 235, you will also need to use the 216 generator pulley and the 216 crank pulley. It is a lot more work to swap the crank pulley than the pump, so I strongly recommend that you use the correct year pump.
4. 216 and 235 carbs have different hole spacing where they bolt to the manifold. The easiest patch is an aftermarket adapter. A 216 carb can also be used on a 235 if you use the 216 intake manifold, but this is a somewhat tedious swap. The port size difference requires the use of aftermarket step rings to keep the ports aligned and you will also need to use the 216 exhaust manifold. Overall, this is quite a bit of bother just to be able to use the wrong carb.
5. 52-later engines lack the holes in their front end plate that you need for the stock 50 mounts. You can easily drill those two holes in the plate without taking the plate off of the engine.

If you need additional info, feel free to ask.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-10-18 01:43 PM - Post#2730591    
    In response to raycow

Thank you very much. I guess I can sell my newly rebuilt carter carb and look for another for the 235. I was told that the later year 235 that had the different water pump was better cooling. Any issues otherwise that a 53-55 would give me issues?



 
Sheldon Y. 
Contributor
Posts: 229

Age: 57
Loc: Waltham, Massachusetts
Reg: 10-29-16
04-10-18 02:48 PM - Post#2730602    
    In response to beachb

New Post from DaveVA, he needs your Carb!

Like I said before, I have the intake and Exhaust Manifolds if you want them.

'49 Styleline Deluxe Build@

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/49-sty...
http://www.frankenrodz.com/frankenstyle.html


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-10-18 03:07 PM - Post#2730605    
    In response to Sheldon Y.

Sheldon, I PM'd you with a message. See what you think and let me know.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-10-18 08:05 PM - Post#2730636    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB The Carb for the 216 is a smaller bore and may be a bit wheezy on a good 235. It would be responsive and fine down low but could limit the top end. Certainly worth trying to see if you can live with it.

It is an SAE 2 flange and the 235 and 261 carbs were SAE 3 from memory. And as others have mentioned the manifolding and port sizes are different.

The only bonus with that new carb is if you get another one just the same, then the pair are a good size for twin carbs on a 235 and 261. If you wanted to go that way.

Don't get too hung up on the exact year as it is simple if you follow Rays advice about the front mount while the engine is out then any of the later full oiling motors fit. If its Auto it usually means more HP and hydraulic cam followers if that appeals.

I took the 261 out of my 52 Sedan (US 51 mounts) where it had been transplanted from a Pontiac, and put it in my formally 216 powered 48 PU. Simple bolt in as the front mount had been drilled already.
What I think is what is the best condition engine you can get your hands on should be your focus, not what is the easiest fit, because they are all really easy.

Cheers Kiwi





48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
Dave in VA 
Poster
Posts: 83
Dave in VA
Age: 67
Loc: SW Virginia, USA
Reg: 03-11-18
04-11-18 04:23 AM - Post#2730660    
    In response to Sheldon Y.

Thanks, Sheldon. The carb on my '50 is a '49 W1, not a YF. I've got a "new" one on the way.

"Knowledge is Good" -- Emil Faber

U S Navy MM2 1970-75 USS Canisteo AO-99, USS Miller DE-1091 (The Champagne of Ships)

1950 Styleline Deluxe 2dr, mostly stock, driver quality...new to me 3/18
2016 Equinox LTZ
2017 Silverado LTZ 6.2


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
04-13-18 06:04 PM - Post#2730893    
    In response to Dave in VA

Would a 1953 235 motor be a dipper or or forced pressure system. I understand the powerglide would be a forest pressure system but the manual is not? I don’t want to get one as a core and try to have it rebuilt if it is a dip or system like my 216 already is



 
rrausch 
"14th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13849
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
04-13-18 09:47 PM - Post#2730920    
    In response to beachb

The 3-speed, manual trans '53 Chevy pass cars used the low pressure, dipper engine. The '53 Chevy Sedan Delivery used the 216 dipper engine.

So for '53 the only one you really want is the passenger car, PG engine. HOWEVER... many times our old cars had the engines replaced over the years. So you can't really go by the year of the car.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 

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