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Username Post: another brake question        (Topic#348956)
Airlifter 
"3rd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 479
Airlifter
Age: 72
Loc: Tazewell county, Virginia
Reg: 06-07-15
01-01-18 10:35 AM - Post#2719664    

I believe that I have read here a discussion about the difference if the stopping ability (friction) of brake shoes for our cars.

Is there any significant difference in the different manufacturers or vendors shoes?

Thanks

1951 styline deluxe sport coupe w/54 engine & powerglide


 

rrausch 
"14th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13844
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
01-01-18 07:53 PM - Post#2719729    
    In response to Airlifter

I've never seen friction materials compared for drum brakes. For my truck, where I haul heavy loads at Interstate speeds, I do buy the best I can find--Hawk, Ferro Carbon pads, but for my 210 I just went down to NAPA and bought what they had on the shelf.

But maybe someone here has done some research on friction materials for drum brakes.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
one4dad 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1425
one4dad
Age: 75
Loc: Baton Rouge La
Reg: 01-17-10
01-01-18 08:01 PM - Post#2719731    
    In response to rrausch

I haven't done any research, but I saw on wheeler dealers that they decided to upgrade brake shoes on a Volvo to a better material in lieu of a disc brake upgrade, and according to their discussion it brought the drums up to near disc performance. Some of the brake experts on here may have more info, etc
Bill

Bill Wilson 50 styleline deluxe 2 door sold,- 51 styleline Deluxe 2 door ,'56 235 with dual carter webers on an Offenhauser intake, Fenton headers, 56 chevy rear end and 700R4 transmission.


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-02-18 01:28 AM - Post#2719756    
    In response to Airlifter

Hi Airlifter, You are absolutely spot on. But in addition to this the modern discs material is also now engineered to be more of a consumable and will normally wear too thin in half the time of the old hard iron ones.

If you buy off the shelf aftermarket shoes or pads they are likely to be hard, slow wearing, quiet and have a low co-efficient of friction.
Premium versions may be slightly better at stopping but you normally pay in a shorter service life.

The next level is normally called street premium or track day pads. They bite much better from cold and even more so when warm. They wear quickly and can have minor noise issues.

This is the highest level I will put in a road car. Because Joe public, your staff, the wife and kids can hop in the car and it will stop properly from the first application and they are safe.

Beyond this are economy race pads. Finally high end race pads. They do not work cold. You need to do warm up laps with the brakes on to build functional temperature to allow their prodigious stopping power to come into play. However they are so effective that they generate enormous amounts of localized heat and will boil fluids and fade dramatically without assisted cooling. They squeal, shriek and shudder, make the disc rotors glow, catch on fire at pit-stop, but stop fast enough to tear your face off.

At the top end of road type brakes I am familiar with is the ones used on Australian touring cars in the Bathurst 1000 race. Because this is up and down a hill with lots of twists and turns for 600 miles they sometimes change the pads mid race, but not all do.

They are massive discs about 1 3/4" thick and 16" diameter. You will also find similar units in the ETC where the Corvette, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Ford Gt, Bentley etc race. Nothing about these brakes relates to road car usage.

Personally I have level three disc pads on two of my road cars, The first one is a resto so it needs to look stock and the disc is small to fit inside 13" rims. The second is a car with 14" rims and two pot calipers. In both cases if I had a free hand there are other changes I could make to make these pads unnecessary.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 01-02-18 01:46 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-03-18 01:24 AM - Post#2719849    
    In response to one4dad

Hi Bill, that's a bit of a myth really. Near disc performance from drums to disc's is a myth.
That's like saying side-valves are nearly like OHV or OHC and cross-ply's are nearly like radials.

Sure you can upgrade drum systems and that may meet all your needs. But you are not going to out brake something with 4 wheel disc and in particular ABS unless you are going much slower or are much much lighter.

If you want to see how different brakes can be then go on "Giggle" and check out video's of F1 versus road car braking.

Cheers Kiwi




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
Airlifter 
"3rd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 479
Airlifter
Age: 72
Loc: Tazewell county, Virginia
Reg: 06-07-15
01-03-18 04:39 AM - Post#2719854    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

The next great question is where do I find the better brake shoes for my '51? I have found a lot of suppliers but I can't tell from their description which are better as far a stopping power.

Thanks again

1951 styline deluxe sport coupe w/54 engine & powerglide


 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18482
2blu52
Age: 85
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
01-03-18 07:33 AM - Post#2719862    
    In response to rrausch

When I did an overhaul of the brake system on my 52 I purchased shoes from NAPA, took what they had in stock which it turns out were metal impregnated and although they wear well, work good when wet, they require a tremendous amount of pedal pressure. The to do list included replacing the shoes but never got around to it.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
50hotrod 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 953
50hotrod
Age: 61
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
01-03-18 07:47 AM - Post#2719864    
    In response to Airlifter

Hi Airlifter,

Years ago, from my experience, the "better" brake shoes were always riveted to the metal base. Cheaper shoes were bonded. The descriptions manufactures give on material composition are vague, but I still see some are bonded and some are riveted.


Well, you know what's wrong with the world today

People done gone put their Bible's away

They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land

"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels



 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18482
2blu52
Age: 85
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
01-03-18 07:55 AM - Post#2719865    
    In response to 50hotrod

In 1950/53 I worked in a large Union 76 station. we had a tune up shop, brake shop, and tire shop. I remember when we started doing our own shoes, cleaning up the metal, using "glue" and cooking them in an oven. Riveted shoes were on the way out. Probably a lot of asbestos dust floating around when cleaning up the old shoes.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-03-18 05:51 PM - Post#2719911    
    In response to 2blu52

Hi Guys, The matter as to whether brake shoes are bonded or riveted isn't relevant. It is simply a matter of the co-efficient of friction between the lining material and the disc or drum surface.

Mostly this is about the lining material as the difference in metals is not as wide.
The compromise is always coefficient of friction vs service quality and life.

The harder a lining material is the less bite it has and generally the longer it will last. So therefore it will need more pressure to operate in the same manner as a softer shoe/pad.

The material makers are not going to release this info to you. But generally it comes in about five grades.
Normally anything that is budget, enduro ,long life, etc is just below most OE specs. The next level is OE quality, then the superior road use ones. Expect to pay double or more for these as they are low volume specialty items.

It is my view that if you are trying to solve your braking issues by resorting to specialist formulations of pad material something else obviously needs improvement. I haven't bought it up before, along with some other variables because they are not appropriate ways to resolve the issues in passenger cars. Its a fudge I have used but as I explained I was constrained by existing parameters and most of you guys aren't.

About the only application I can see is in resto's that have very average brakes anyway and you can't change any of the other parameters.

Cheers Kiwi




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
Airlifter 
"3rd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 479
Airlifter
Age: 72
Loc: Tazewell county, Virginia
Reg: 06-07-15
01-03-18 06:51 PM - Post#2719919    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

I am not really trying to solve braking problems. I am just trying to make what I have more efficient.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

1951 styline deluxe sport coupe w/54 engine & powerglide


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-04-18 05:59 PM - Post#2720028    
    In response to Airlifter

Hi Airlifter, I understand what you are saying, and soft compound shoes/pads will do that at a premium of shorter life and usually more cost.

But doesn't that say that your brakes are not where you would like them to be. So other fixes should be a consideration?

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
VANDENPLAS 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1788
VANDENPLAS
Age: 38
Loc: ontario canada
Reg: 07-29-09
01-04-18 06:08 PM - Post#2720031    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Best would be to find a shop around you that still relines shoes.

I deal with a shop that will machine your drums then feline your shoes also over size the shoe to make up for what has been removed from the drum ( this option was available from the dealer when our cars were new)
And also re-arc the shoe to fit the drum perfectly.

A properly serviced and adjusted drum brake system with correct sized master and wheel cylinders will stop just fine.

I had a 53 Chrysler with bendex brakes that I had the above work done to the brakes and the car was easy to drive in modern traffic.

We are not driving hot rods and are not “ pinning it” to the apex of a turn.

The biggest issue with drum brakes is they need more servicing then a disc set up

And as far as riveted over bonded shoes, I find I prefer the riveted shoe.

I know the later model gm and Chevy cars 80and newer , if they came with riveted shoes and you used bonded you had issues with grabbing and “ threading” where the shoes would thread itself onto the drum then bind and “ click “ off
Don’t know but I feel a riveted shoe is of better quality.

" The chain in those handcuffs is made of high tensile steel. It will take you ten minutes to hack through it with this, if your lucky. You can hack through your ankle in fivei



In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king 👑


Edited by VANDENPLAS on 01-04-18 06:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4260
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-04-18 09:44 PM - Post#2720048    
    In response to VANDENPLAS

Hi VDP, you make some valid points, but the problem area I run into is the driving of others when they swerve across into your lane, while breaking heavily, and talking on the phone.

Personally I don't think you will get a better drum system that "Bendix" brakes with self adjusters. Other than adding a small booster to assist.

However in my view drum brakes degrade further in service before most people realize. They go out of adjustment, can glaze the shoes, out of round the drums, weep at the wheel cylinders or seize and not work. Although some of these faults can happen with disc's they are far less prone to it and tend to degrade less over service life.

To stop all drum shoes from biting I bevel the leading edge of the lining material all the way across and about 1/4" on the angle face.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 01-04-18 09:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 

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