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Username Post: Jag IFS Mount brackets.        (Topic#340734)
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
03-29-17 02:20 PM - Post#2684055    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

03-29-17 03:18 PM - Post#353592

Hi Pastor Johnnie. Its been a while since I have done one, but there is one bolt hole that usually lined up pretty well in the correct place.
But it isn't a 100% guarantee as there can be variances so checking, fore and aft location side to side and tilt are all important.
What you have to do is make sure you are working with a square frame.

So you want the axles parallel in two planes. As seen from above, and as seen from font or rear. but it is also important that they are not offset so the vehicle crabs.
This is often done by diagonals but as many vehicles have different track widths from the front to rear. offset from a true center line is more reliable.

I would need to see pictures to see which holes you are talking about as we tend to cut off more from the Jag center member. Most folks on the forum leave on the little flat plate which I think is the old engine mount pad. We take it off to make a cleaner join and comply with our engineering rules.

I see folks using some very heavy plates to make the connection and this has merits if you are going to thread it. But for me joining a chassis made out of about 1/8" pressed steel sections to a front member also of about 1/8" steel pressed sections should not need to resolved with structural steel plate.

Chassis have to flex and that is why they are light weight compound sections and often riveted and bolted rather than welded. Putting a chunk of near rigid structural steel isn't the best answer.
I have been thinking about a design I would use if I was making a kit or production run, but the reality is that these are almost always done on a one off basis.

I can sketch it up, but I think most folks want a simpler solution than you would use in production. So I may have to think some more on it.
I am happy to put up some hand drawn sketches next week for folk to review.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 

Chevs of the 40s

Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-02-17 11:02 PM - Post#2684716    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Drew, The welding is usually done off car for a bolt in and as that was how the stock one was it's sensible to follow that lead.

I have started sketching last night but I need to explain what drives some of my decisions that does not have to follow in your market. But they are all sensible rules.

We have a rule about welding brakes and steering parts that requires a certified welder and x-raying of welds. Given the cost of that we avoid it like the plague. So no welded uprights or steering arms.

The second rule we have about this is called the "oil canning" rule. What it basically says is you can't join across part of another member unless you go top to bottom.
So if you put a diagonal gusset under a frame member or mount it can't only go half way. My 32 frame had this and it did split the frame which you could only see when it was cleaned down for paint when I moved the mounts during a rebuild.

So that is why we take off the old Jag Engine mounts, that a lot of folks use to rest the plate on. Because the inner side needs a filler gusset we are obliged to make it go right across and the old engine mounts are in the way unless you make a very wide plate.

Another thing we do is when we make plates that bolt onto another flat surface, like the underside of the chassis, is to round the corners so that there is no pressure points at the edge. Given the original Chevy design wisely offset the bolt load points, (They are not opposite each other from inside to outside when looking from the side.) then that also gives you the opportunity to follow that and have a longer contact edge by making the plate like a Rhombus not a rectangle.

The other thought I would leave you with is this front suspension, like all, under braking is trying to roll under the chassis from the braking effort. Given it has big vented power discs, it is way better at that than the old Huck or bendix ever were. So that force needs some thought.

Cheers Kiwi.

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-03-17 02:36 AM - Post#2684722    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Folks,This is how I would do the bracket if I was doing some more on the 49-54 vtop hat chassis.

The top plate only needs to be thick enough to counter sink the machine screws for the outer rear mount. Look back at what postal cop did. The brace plate for the inner side I set inside the bolt holes to make the aces easier and to put the line of support more or less under the vertical of the top hat.

You can tack the flat plate in place and then cut a heavy card outline for the brace. Tack it to the top plate and then break them off and weld the underside where the brace connects to the top plate. It doesn't need to be more than 3-4 mm, and keeping it thin makes it easy to whittle a bit off if it moves in welding. While it's off I would use the opportunity to do stitches inside and out so it doesn't pull so much, and stays where it was meant to.

If you were using the old engine mounts as guides they can go now. Tack the plates and braces in place and make sure everything still aligns. We often stood the suspension up to get better access at the brace to crossmember weld and made it a down hand. You could stitch this if you like as well.
The advantage of doing it down hand is when you weld the fitted brace vertical to the suspension member face it's just going around the corner, not changing to vertical. You could weld both sides of the vertical if you want when you do the other side. But it shouldn't really be necessary if your welding is sound.

Cheers Kiwi




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48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-03-17 02:46 AM - Post#2684723    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Drew, It is not difficult to change this bracket so the top plate is made from Angle iron and you could se it into the member to lower the front. But the reason I have never done this is that the steering rack will get too close to the sump.
Your engine may be mounted higher and further back, but for all the extra work you would probably need to chop the sump as well to get another inch.

Have a look in these photos. Just enough clearance to slide your fingers around the rack, so probably only 1/2". Never going to hit but not much point in trying to go further down than just surface mounting.

Cheers kiwi

Attachment: V8_Rh_Engine_mount_and_chassis_notch_for_Rack.jpg (42.76 KB) 24 View(s)




Attachment: 350_and_Jag_front_engine_bay.jpg (51.04 KB) 24 View(s)




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-06-17 04:00 PM - Post#2685312    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Guys, Just a little idea if you want to get a bit fussy about your bracket or you cut the gusset too small.

Just cut some srtips of up to 3mm thick steel and weld them to the Jag member where the gusset will land. You can't weld the long one to the bracket first it has to go on the member. I have attempted to show plug weld but you could just as easily stitch the sides as well, or both.

The strap must be hard down on the member all the way. That's why I went for plugs which pull tight as they cool, and it needs to be carefully clamped.

I would normally call these doubler plates as they are usually the same thickness as the member material. Just another way of load spreading, or as I said a sound filler if you over cut your gusset.

Cheers Kiwi



Attachment: Scan_20170407.jpg (229.36 KB) 28 View(s)




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
04-07-17 09:51 PM - Post#2685541    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi guys, this is the old way we used to do the chassis to suspension join, but our regs have changed so the brake torque gusset would now have to be on the inside. As I have shown in my sketches as the lower arm mount prevents a full height gusset on the outside.

You can see there are no remnants of the old engine mounts and this allows a complete weld side to side on the top.

You can see the plates are not particularly thick in section as they don't need to be. The right place and style is far more important. From memory the two fixed studs on these were welded in the plate without heads on, alternately if the heads are left on you need to put some clearance holes in the member, (Not so nice.) but a rose welded stud is a strong as a tack welded bolt head so it's not an issue. Probably better Tig welded rather than Mig if you are worried, but I have never bothered.

The US drivers side engine mount is full height, as they are supposed to be.
The US Passenger side Engine mount has a "D" shaped cut out for the fuel line but we are not supposed to do that any more, so you would drill a big clearance hole that came to within say 1/4" of the chassis join now and just put some rubber over the line to stop it rubbing.

I don't think our "D" design could ever oilcan as it's still top to bottom and the hole is in the neutral axis. So if you don't have our rules it's actually perfectly fine to do that as it doesn't stop halfway, because the steel links the two welds to make them full height just as they would be if you stitch welded it. (Some folks get a bit carried away with rules.)
Yes we would be allowed to stitch weld it, dumb huh!

The last pic should be our bracket for a short shock. You can make them taller if you like but then they need to start getting heavier.

Cheers Kiwi

Ps. If you have sharp eyes you may have noticed that our gussets are folded 90* and stitched to the thin base plate so they act as doublers. (2 x 1/8" thick) There is no real load in the center of the plate so this is fine, but you need the folding gear, so in my "home shop" design I just went for 1/4" plate.

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48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 04-07-17 09:59 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
09-08-17 08:46 PM - Post#2707119    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Bolake, Post bumped for you.

Cheers kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4403
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
03-26-18 12:10 AM - Post#2728951    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Bump for Funkman, the green sedan is the forward mount version, you can tell its local as its RHD.

The bolt in and weld in fronts are probably set for rear engine location but don't appear difficult to modify just the engine mount.

The image is the bolt trans mount, non drop out style.


Cheers Kiwi

Attachment: Trans_X_member_adapter_V8_position.jpg (35.21 KB) 8 View(s)




48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

"They made a desert and called it peace." Tacitus


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 03-26-18 12:24 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 

Chevs of the 40s

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