Gain extra benefits by becoming a Supporting Member Click here find out how!

Classic Performance Products Classic Industries
American Auto Wire
Danchuk Catalog
Hellwig Products IncPerformance Rod & CustomNu-Relics Power Windows



 Page 1 of 5 1234>
Username Post: 65-66 "B" Body Ackermann Fix        (Topic#338617)
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-27-16 10:07 AM - Post#2648014    




The Story continues..........Just to go back in time.......the 66 Impala has a complete RideTech suspension front and rear (Coil-overs)......since completion the car has had a Ackermann issue.......driving straight it was a slot car.......turning was a different story.......Pull into the garage and the tires would leave black marks on the driveway, and sharp turns were pretty nasty.........so.....not being a suspension guy and the car driving normal when not turning.....I just accepted it as some nuance with the Ridetech suspension with slightly wider rims.........Keep in mind this car was finished 5 years ago...We drove the car on two Power Tours without any issues.......Then the Chevelle came into the picture and the Impala sat in the garage for two years
After driving the Chevelle during that time (no steering issues) and then getting back into driving the Impala.......I was determined to find out what was going on here.....At Barrett-Jackson last January I happened to stop at the RideTech display and talked to the people there and explained my concerns about the Ackermann issues..........To make a long story short, if this issue was going to get resolved I was going to have to do it myself........So, In talking with Mark Webster, he informed me that GM changed the 65-66 "B" body steering geometry to a new configuration in 67.........Hummmm !!!!
What changed and why???.............After a lot of research and asking stupid questions on a lot of web sites.......I found out that GM knew there were issues with the 65-66 models with wider rims such as Police cars and in Sept of 66 there was a Service Bulletin to address these issues.......This Bulletin basically gave the part numbers of all the new 67 design parts and the position and templates for the mounting holes for the repositioning of the 67 design Idler Arm assy........The Biggest difference is the mounting location of the Idler Arm .......In the 65-66 model years, the Idler arm was mounted thru a hole inside the frame rail.........67 and up it was mounted inside the frame rail and forward of the thru frame position.....












It's pretty obvious by this picture the differences............Here's a picture of the difference in the spindle steering arms....







Pictures of the supplied templates provided in the 1966 Service Bulletin.......











So........What I did was make the required steering arm spacer with tapped holes......got it in position .....and welded it in......









After installing the new Pitman Arm , centerlink, and Idler Arm.......It was apparent that there was something wrong as the centerlink went up on an angle and back towards the rear of the car........Hummmm!!!!..........After thinking about it and looking at what could be the problem.....I noticed that the 67 Pitman arm was about a 1/2" lower than the 66.........The Template must have been made with the 66 arm...........I made the centerlink parallel to the frame and the front crossmember.........Drilled new holes for the Idler arm (which corresponded to the lower 67 arm...........Makes perfect sense now ) and bolted everything in........Installed new Tie Rod ends.........Now everything is new.......Adjusted the toe roughly and when I pulled out of the garage to go to the alignment shop..........I knew right away there was a major difference as there wasn't any tire squeeling or scrubbing...........after alignment.........It is now the complete package.....Ackermann issue solved.........drives and steer's perfectly...............



Edited by 427SS65 on 06-11-17 10:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 


bbcrtny 
Poster
Posts: 51

Reg: 07-01-10
08-27-16 02:02 PM - Post#2648050    
    In response to kwhizz

Thanks for the great write up. Any chance of posting a link to the service bulletin, I didn't see it in the reference material. Also how far do you need to move the hole so you could make the corrections to the template.

Bob



 
leon phelps 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4149
leon phelps
Loc: Croydon Manor, PA
Reg: 06-04-05
08-27-16 02:48 PM - Post#2648055    
    In response to bbcrtny

have had a similar problem with my 65. have the corvette disc conversion on the car. guess this will be more complicated than your situation. I also squeal at slow speeds, steer fine at speed on straight, and wander a little on slight curves.

I still have the original suspension, all new.

Did you need to remove anything or could you get to the frame to drill the holes?

Do you have a copy of that template to share? Any chance of making one with the new 1/2 difference in the correct location or showing where it would be on the template?

thanks as always ken.



 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-27-16 03:50 PM - Post#2648061    
    In response to leon phelps

I'll post the link as soon as I figure out how to transfer the file............

Ken



 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-27-16 04:08 PM - Post#2648066    
    In response to kwhizz

Actually.......I was worried about the Idler mount hole positions.........But, After getting the correct Pitman Arm and centerlink installed....It was just a matter of getting the centerlink (with the Idler arm assy installed) parallel to the front cross member and parallel to the ground (or bottom of the cross member)....then spot the holes into the frame.....There is a spacer GM #3917802 that I couldn't find any info on so I just made it out of 3/8" steel.......(spaces the Idler out from the frame).......I had a 90 degree hand drill and I was able to do the drilling with no problem with stubby drills.......









 
bbcrtny 
Poster
Posts: 51

Reg: 07-01-10
08-27-16 06:52 PM - Post#2648092    
    In response to kwhizz

I didn't see any mention of changing the pitman arm in the service bulletin, was it necessary?

Bob



 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-27-16 07:29 PM - Post#2648098    
    In response to bbcrtny

  • bbcrtny Said:
I didn't see any mention of changing the pitman arm in the service bulletin, was it necessary?

Bob




Probably not..........But......as long as I was doing it.......well.....You know......




 
1963SBHD 
Contributor
Posts: 832
1963SBHD
Loc: south carolina
Reg: 09-01-11
08-27-16 10:52 PM - Post#2648122    
    In response to kwhizz

Thanks for this info on the suspension fixes. Been going round n round on the 61-64 site trying to get our X frames to handle better. Change one thing, mess up two it seems. Appreciate you work, incite and expertise. Wish I lived closer..would like to witness a build in person. Interesting it was a "high speed situation" requiring a fix from the factory. Michel J.



 
vet65b 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 640
vet65b
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Reg: 02-09-06
08-28-16 08:17 AM - Post#2648182    
    In response to kwhizz

Ken,
My '65 is suffering from Ackermann angle also. I knew "something" was wrong but didn't know what. Does your posted template sketch reflect the corrected position of the two holes you drilled?
Thanks for great work, now I have another winter job to add to the "do list". Bill

Bill Wilhelm
1965 Impala SS
1966 Corvette, ordered for my 23rd. birthday


 
bigbowtielover 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2580
bigbowtielover
Loc: Surrey British Columbia
Reg: 09-01-13
08-28-16 09:50 AM - Post#2648205    
    In response to vet65b

A few degrees of caster change takes alot of scrub out.



 
bigbowtielover 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2580
bigbowtielover
Loc: Surrey British Columbia
Reg: 09-01-13
08-28-16 09:59 AM - Post#2648206    
    In response to bigbowtielover

I would like to see all 6 pages if that bulletin. Police and taxi had different control arms and balljoints. I always wondered what was different about them. I had a'65 Biscayne 2doorpost police car once but it was stolen by a scrapper before I had a chance to work on it.



 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-28-16 10:17 AM - Post#2648215    
    In response to vet65b

  • vet65b Said:
Ken,
My '65 is suffering from Ackermann angle also. I knew "something" was wrong but didn't know what. Does your posted template sketch reflect the corrected position of the two holes you drilled?
Thanks for great work, now I have another winter job to add to the "do list". Bill




Forget about the Template and work off the Centerlink assembled to the Pitman arm and idler assy........You will need a 3/8" thick spacer to go between the Idler mount and the frame.....when you have those parts assembled.......everything will pivot off the Pitman arm......align the centerlink to be Parallel and level to the front crossmember........transfer the mounting holes to the frame and you are good to go........I made my spacer with tapped holes and when I got everything in position.......I welded the spacer to the frame.......Then I drilled the tap drill size thru the frame and ran a tap thru the spacer and continued the threads thru the frame rail....

I was very worried about the Template hole position......but......in the end the centerlink is the positioning factor so the template is not really needed

Ken



 
leon phelps 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4149
leon phelps
Loc: Croydon Manor, PA
Reg: 06-04-05
08-28-16 05:19 PM - Post#2648281    
    In response to kwhizz

am I correct in seeing that the new centerlink will have the bar angled to the front of the vehicle? I did a pan chop for my ls swap and am 1/8" away with the original flat bar.



 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-28-16 07:10 PM - Post#2648306    
    In response to leon phelps

Leon.......The main bar is further away from the pan.....But the shape of the bar hits the pan slightly at full turn where the shape comes back in.........

Ken



Edited by kwhizz on 08-28-16 07:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
leon phelps 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4149
leon phelps
Loc: Croydon Manor, PA
Reg: 06-04-05
08-29-16 08:52 AM - Post#2648384    
    In response to kwhizz

still got my wheels churning here....

guessing you used the spindle steering arms for the 67. were the the ones for the disc or the ones for the drums? If they are the disc only ones, would you have a part number? need to see if they are close to the corvette ones I used.



 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
08-29-16 02:38 PM - Post#2648444    
    In response to leon phelps

  • leon phelps Said:
still got my wheels churning here....

guessing you used the spindle steering arms for the 67. were the the ones for the disc or the ones for the drums? If they are the disc only ones, would you have a part number? need to see if they are close to the corvette ones I used.




Hummmm!!!........Don't know, but I will find out...




 
BowtieGent 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1450
BowtieGent
Loc: Mission, BC.
Reg: 05-07-13
08-29-16 08:09 PM - Post#2648530    
    In response to kwhizz

I added a set of C3 discs up front on my '65 Biscayne, and used the drum brake steering arms. I have yet to drive the car, so I can't speak yet on how well or bad it steers.

Nitrous is like a hot girl with STD's…You know you wanna hit it, but you’re afraid of the consequences!
1965 Biscayne 2 Door Post: 350,PG,373-posi,C3-DB, PS,PB.
1970 Chevelle Malibu: 53 on 753.
Brian Daniel McClure: 1970-2015. R.I.P. Brother.


 
gz3s36 
Newbie
Posts: 27
gz3s36
Loc: Warrenton, MO
Reg: 09-15-16
09-16-16 04:46 AM - Post#2651627    
    In response to kwhizz

So can you enlighten me? I have a 1966 Impala. If I purchase and install a 1966 Impala front end rebuild kit I may have Ackermann issues?

3 Bob
66 Impala
66 Chevy Truck
07 Sierra 2500HD
10 Silverado 2500HD


 
leon phelps 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4149
leon phelps
Loc: Croydon Manor, PA
Reg: 06-04-05
09-16-16 04:57 AM - Post#2651629    
    In response to gz3s36

your front end rebuilt kit is most likely bushings and tie rod ends. this is steering parts, centerlink and how it is affixed to frame.



 
gz3s36 
Newbie
Posts: 27
gz3s36
Loc: Warrenton, MO
Reg: 09-15-16
09-16-16 05:40 AM - Post#2651634    
    In response to leon phelps

I am replacing all bushings, inner and outer tie rods, idler arm, pitman arm and center link. Everything will be new. Should I be installing something different than 1966 replacement parts. I also plan to put on an after market disc brake conversion kit with drop spindles as well.


3 Bob
66 Impala
66 Chevy Truck
07 Sierra 2500HD
10 Silverado 2500HD


 
leon phelps 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4149
leon phelps
Loc: Croydon Manor, PA
Reg: 06-04-05
09-16-16 06:22 AM - Post#2651637    
    In response to gz3s36

no one has tried this with drop spindles that I know of yet.

I will probably be the first to try with corvette disc brake setup this winter.



 
gz3s36 
Newbie
Posts: 27
gz3s36
Loc: Warrenton, MO
Reg: 09-15-16
09-16-16 08:49 AM - Post#2651667    
    In response to kwhizz

Did you use a 66 or 67 pitman arm. I believe they are different lengths.

3 Bob
66 Impala
66 Chevy Truck
07 Sierra 2500HD
10 Silverado 2500HD


 
bigbowtielover 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2580
bigbowtielover
Loc: Surrey British Columbia
Reg: 09-01-13
09-16-16 08:16 PM - Post#2651747    
    In response to gz3s36

'67-'70 pitman arms are angled upwards slightly.



 
BowtieGent 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1450
BowtieGent
Loc: Mission, BC.
Reg: 05-07-13
09-17-16 09:58 AM - Post#2651828    
    In response to bigbowtielover

  • bigbowtielover Said:
'67-'70 pitman arms are angled upwards slightly.



Rob, Knowing my set-up, do you feel I could encounter any issues down the road?


Nitrous is like a hot girl with STD's…You know you wanna hit it, but you’re afraid of the consequences!
1965 Biscayne 2 Door Post: 350,PG,373-posi,C3-DB, PS,PB.
1970 Chevelle Malibu: 53 on 753.
Brian Daniel McClure: 1970-2015. R.I.P. Brother.


 
bigbowtielover 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2580
bigbowtielover
Loc: Surrey British Columbia
Reg: 09-01-13
09-17-16 04:57 PM - Post#2651874    
    In response to BowtieGent

Just the normal issues these cars already have. More caster helps as well as tire size. 8" rallies on front with wide tires doesn't help. I ran them once with 235/60 and turning tight was nasty. 225/70 on 7" rallies made a big difference on that car. It was all over the road with the 8" and drive way straighter with the 7" and didn't wear out the idler arm like before.



 
fmolnar427 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 590
fmolnar427
Age: 55
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Reg: 10-06-07
10-08-16 05:43 AM - Post#2655485    
    In response to kwhizz

Do you really need the the steering knuckles from a 67 and the pitman arm.
Or will it work with just the idler and do the correct spacing of the drag link and the 67 idler.

I have the centre link.... drag link,
IF ALL I NEED IS THE IDLER THAT BE GREAT.
I can get the steering knuckles I think.
BUT not sure, budget is kinda low to get new.


Thanks Frank

Big,Bad,B -bodies Rule!!
66 Impala SS 327/2sp power glide
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/240425 5...


 
kwhizz 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1180
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
10-08-16 05:34 PM - Post#2655562    
    In response to fmolnar427

The Major difference is in the centerlink and the Idler arm........You could probably get by with just changing them out.........

Ken



 
fmolnar427 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 590
fmolnar427
Age: 55
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Reg: 10-06-07
10-08-16 06:30 PM - Post#2655566    
    In response to kwhizz

That be great....as I have a 68 centre link.


The salvage yards I go to was closed today
As it is Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada.

I'm going there Tuesday and pull those spindle steering arms of a 68 , but there is a 67 there to.

So hopefully I will ,luck out.


The centre links are a bit small , think this fix should be good.

Thanks Ken.

Big,Bad,B -bodies Rule!!
66 Impala SS 327/2sp power glide
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/240425 5...


 
bigbowtielover 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2580
bigbowtielover
Loc: Surrey British Columbia
Reg: 09-01-13
10-08-16 07:15 PM - Post#2655576    
    In response to fmolnar427

You will need the pitman arm from steering box also.



 
fmolnar427 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 590
fmolnar427
Age: 55
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Reg: 10-06-07
10-09-16 01:25 PM - Post#2655680    
    In response to bigbowtielover

Kens said it was first put on with original 66 pithan arm, so he didn't use the template.
Sure the 66 pitman won't Work?



Big,Bad,B -bodies Rule!!
66 Impala SS 327/2sp power glide
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/240425 5...


 


 Page 1 of 5 1234>
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

22909 Views
FusionBB
FusionBB™ Version 2.1
©2003-2006 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.239 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0800) Pacific. Current time is 11:48 PM
Top