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Username Post: 700r4 lockup        (Topic#335213)
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
04-25-16 11:55 AM - Post#2624213    

Hi everyone... i'm probably here, but I have a 1951 chevy and I installed a 1986 firebird transam 700r4. the age old question is, do i have to spend 80-160 dollars on a converter kit. I just read on a transmission shops website that after 84 you could run the car with these wires unplugged and will still have all four gears (link is below). I consider the knowledge on this forum as way more concrete then a transmission shop tip sheet, so your input is valued.


thank you in advance

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/700r4.htm



 




Shepherd 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2013

Loc: Lake George, NY
Reg: 11-11-15
04-25-16 04:24 PM - Post#2624270    
    In response to hmadrigal

The lock up should function to avoid " driving on convertor ", this can cause overheating the fluid, as the convertors are pretty loose.



 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
04-25-16 05:20 PM - Post#2624290    
    In response to hmadrigal

You really should get the lockup working for the reason given above, but you don't have to put out $ for a kit unless you are SERIOUSLY electrically challenged. All you need is a couple of switches, a few feet of wire, and a handful of wire terminals.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
04-27-16 11:26 AM - Post#2624654    
    In response to raycow

I have heard that before Ray cow, and your right it doesn't seem all that difficult, but I dont know who to believe on the internet. Can you fill me on what needs to be done?



 
57tim 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3070
57tim
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
Reg: 11-09-01
04-28-16 11:25 AM - Post#2624834    
    In response to hmadrigal

Lockup can be controlled internally, mine is. No external wiring involved. A good transmission guy should know what to do.

57 Bel Air 2dr Ht
327 700r4
http://www.picturetrail.com/tmneid


 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
04-28-16 03:05 PM - Post#2624871    
    In response to hmadrigal

This is the simplest way to hook up the wiring using the fewest parts and still providing a civilized driving experience. In other words, don't try to get by without the brake switch.
http://www.smokemup.com/gallery/pictures/othe r/700...

On some older cars, it may be difficult or impossible to install the 4 terminal brake switch. Your 51 would be an example of this if you are still using the stock brake pedal. For those cars, the easiest hookup uses a cube relay wired like this:
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/2/2...

A few comments on the second diagram: First, the unconnected ring terminal has to be grounded. As drawn (but with the ring terminal grounded), the circuit will work with some cube relays, but not with all of them. If you reverse the wires connected to terminals #85 and #86, the hookup will work with ANY cube relay on any negative ground car. Also, this diagram fails to show the ground wire connected to terminal D of the trans connector, but you will still need it with most transmissions.

Lastly, the "hands-free" setup described by 57tim does work, but it requires you (or somebody you pay) to go inside the trans to make some mods to the valve body. I didn't think you wanted to take that on, but I can post the instructions if you feel up to the job.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
05-01-16 11:44 PM - Post#2625645    
    In response to raycow

Raycow...
I really appreciate you getting back to me, but you are speaking to someone who is pretty ignorant to all of this. You are right i want to go the route of the cube relay,
1. i went over to my local hardware store and bought one. after review, i have a 85 spade, 86 spade, 87 spade , but my last spade is maked 87A and 30 on the other side. will this relay work?

2. my next question is.... do i drop the pan just to make sure the stock pressure switch and stock solenoid are connected and go out to pin 1? i bought a very simple kit that includes a new pressure switch, should I replace the stock with it?

3. My last question is do I splice the hot wire that goes to my brake lights?

i'm just confused on how this lock up works?

Thanks again.

Hector



 
raycow 
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Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-03-16 09:55 AM - Post#2625981    
    In response to hmadrigal

The relay you have will definitely work. You won't be using terminal #87. Connect #86 to the brake light switch (the terminal on the switch which is NOT hot unless you step on the brake pedal). Leave the existing brake light wire on that same terminal. Ground #85. Connect #30 to ignition switched power and #87A to the trans. Which terminal on the trans will depend on what follows.

I didn't think you wanted to pull the trans pan. However, if you do, this will be a big help when you connect the external wires to the trans.

First, find out exactly what is connected to each terminal on the inside of the case connector. This will determine which wires you will connect where on the outside of the connector. You may certainly install the 4th gear switch if you find that the trans doesn't already have one (and you have decided that you want the OD to engage ONLY in 4th gear). Make sure that you have good instructions for this which shows exactly where it should go. Also, the wiring may be different depending on whether your 4th gear switch has one terminal or two. The same goes for the solenoid. See if it has one terminal (or wire) or two.

Please post again after you find out what is connected where inside the trans.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
05-03-16 03:54 PM - Post#2626067    
    In response to raycow

thanks Raycow, you have been a huge help, hope to meet you one day so I can buy you a beer/burger/coffee or a combination of these things..
Just to update what you said on your last post, 86 splices to the wire that is normally off unless i hit my brakes which then sends current to them. right? 85 is ground,now here is a problem, and i think i will need a different relay, the 87 spade is on its own, but the last spade says 87A on one side and 30 on the other, as if they are sharing that one spade. thats the story of the relay.

now

I did open the pan, so i have a one spade gear switch installed to fourth gear, the (brown)wire runs into a hub of some kind inside the pan. i also have a two wire solenoid, one wire (brown)goes to that same hub as the brown gear switch and the black wire routes up to the connector to go out (i'm guess to D). there are also two black wires that come from the connector to this hub that holds four wires in total.

All this was confusing... and I have debated to just leave the internals alone...

but, unless you say otherwise, I think my game plan is to install my new two spade gear switch, run one wire from (a) on the connector to the gear switch, then the other spade on the gear switch runs to the brown wire on the solenoid, the black wire from the solenoid should run to the (d) on the connector which is the ground. and take every thing else out.

If i do this, i will no longer need the relay? or will it still be beneficial to do install?

again, i'm sorry for the confusion but thank you for helping me with this. the next issue i have to tackle is the TV cable.



 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-05-16 09:33 AM - Post#2626455    
    In response to hmadrigal

Ok, let's do the relay first. I Think I may have misunderstood your original description of your relay, and I apologize for having misled you. In order to work for this application, it must have SEPARATE #30 and #87A terminals. A relay with this configuration will normally have 5 terminals. To be honest, I have never seen a relay where #30 and #87A were combined into one, and I don't know how this would be electrically possible. If you are saying your relay has only 4 terminals, it will not work here.

Don't replace the relay just yet, because you MAY be able to get by without it.

Unfortunately, something just now came up where I have to go out for a while. I will be back later on today to finish this up, and I apologize for the interruption.

Ray



Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
05-05-16 01:22 PM - Post#2626504    
    In response to raycow

thanks Raycow.... I'll wait for the rest of your response.



 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-06-16 10:06 AM - Post#2626686    
    In response to hmadrigal

Thank you for your patience. The straight series connection you described should work fine to give you lockup in 4th gear only. Just make sure to connect the solenoid so that the brown wire is (+) and the black wire is (-) because the solenoid is polarity sensitive. Also, don't forget the manual switch in the +12V wire going to the outside of the case connector.

Now, back to the relay. In theory, you shouldn't need the brake switch connection when using a 4th-gear-only hookup, so try it without the relay first. The problem is that some transmissions are slow to unlock when you come to a stop. You will know it because you will feel or hear the engine struggling as the car speed drops below about 10-15 mph. The effect will be similar to what happens if you are driving a manual shift car and fail to push in the clutch pedal when you should.

Of course you can always flip the manual switch off when this happens, but this can get annoying if you are doing much stop-and-go driving. In that case, you will need to get a 5 terminal relay (these are very common) and wire it as shown in the diagram I linked to earlier.

If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to ask.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
05-06-16 02:11 PM - Post#2626721    
    In response to raycow

raycow,
so in your opinion, should i leave the stuff on the inside of the transmission alone then? or are you saying change out the presurre switch for the two prong pressure switch.

i did find the correct relay. and i think i will wire it. (I actully had one laying around in the my garage)

thank you



 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-06-16 05:20 PM - Post#2626760    
    In response to hmadrigal

  • hmadrigal Said:
....so in your opinion, should i leave the stuff on the inside of the transmission alone then? or are you saying change out the presurre switch for the two prong pressure switch....


Well I think you should definitely check the 4th gear switch which is in there now before you try to use it. Some of them that were made to be used with an engine management computer work backwards from what you might normally expect. In other words, they are closed until the trans shifts to 4th gear and then they open. That's why a lot of the aftermarket lockup kits include a new 4th gear switch, even though the trans may already have one.

You could use a continuity tester to see if the switch is open or closed when there is no oil pressure on it. Disconnect any wires which may be on the switch before you test.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
05-12-16 08:39 AM - Post#2627809    
    In response to raycow

thank you Raycow for all the help!!!



 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-14-16 11:53 AM - Post#2628207    
    In response to hmadrigal

You are very welcome. I wish I could offer some help with the TV cable question, but that one is outside of my range.

Once you get the cable sorted out, please post again and let us know if the lockup is working ok or if you think it still needs some tweaking.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
hmadrigal 
Contributor
Posts: 134
hmadrigal
Reg: 02-24-09
05-31-16 03:54 PM - Post#2631396    
    In response to raycow

Hi Raycow,
I got the chevy going and drove it from Union city down to santa maria for the cruising national this weekend. Happy to say we got home safely and at the end of the day that is what matters.
the chevy itself ran extremly smooth, maybe to smooth. the car just seeemed less responsive, i had no horse power to pass on the freeway, although i was able to maintain 70mph while cruising. it shifted into overdrive just fine.

i did try several times to turn off the overdrive with my on / off switch but seems to always go into 4th no matter what position the toggle was on. is this to be expected since its a small engine with no real horsepower, it did seem more responsive with the old Powerglide.

do i need to increase the idel on the carb? stock on the 51 sits at 450-500rpms in drive.

I also feel like i need to replace my harmonic balancer, the motor makes noise and there is vibration. do you know where i can get a hold of one.

again thanks for all the help, without your advice, a family trip like last weekends would not be posible.



 
raycow 
DECEASED
Posts: 27999
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
06-03-16 09:50 PM - Post#2631998    
    In response to hmadrigal

The toggle switch controls ONLY the converter clutch lockup. Its presence or absence will have no effect on whether or when the trans shifts to 4th gear. That is determined entirely by the valve body, governor, and throttle opening. I think your TV cable issue may be the culprit here, so you really need to get that checked out by someone who is qualified before anything expensive gets damaged.

Are you aware that you should ALWAYS be able to get a downshift from 4th to 3rd gear by moving the hand lever from OD to D? If you can't, then the valve body may have a problem, too.

To see if the balancer is the cause of your vibration, try revving the engine in neutral with the car standing still. If no vibration then, it has to be a driveline issue.

Check U-joint angles first if the vibration is more noticeable at low speeds when there is a load on the driveshaft, such as when climbing a hill. If more noticeable at high speeds and independent of load, check driveshaft balance.

If you still get vibration when standing still in neutral, this narrows it down to the balancer, flexplate, converter, or the engine itself.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 




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