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 Page 9 of 11 « First<891011
Username Post: My '60 classic project        (Topic#308201)
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-08-19 05:35 AM - Post#2779759    
    In response to PLS

I’ve asked an expert, I’ll likely get back to you later today with some real good advice on which springs to get.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


Edited by DonSSDD on 11-08-19 05:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 


PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-08-19 06:23 AM - Post#2779762    
    In response to DonSSDD

Thank you Don very much I really do appreciate your help! Lamar



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-08-19 06:53 AM - Post#2779769    
    In response to DonSSDD

This advice is from a fellow who works on engines of all vintages and from stock to drag. He says:
I'd use the stock replacement spring for the 1996 and up Vortec 305 and 350 engines.Yes I suggest changing all 16 springs.I'd be doubtful that the cam is hurt,but springs do fail from age.These springs have a seat pressure of about 90 lbs.

I told him the history and that this was for a stock 283 that won’t see any racing.

He says use GM only in this case. His advice is bullletproof IMHO.
Don

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-08-19 08:47 AM - Post#2779772    
    In response to DonSSDD

Thank you Don!! When I get home this afternoon I will look them up and before I buy anything I will post what I find to make sure that we are all on the same page 😊



 
PLS 
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-08-19 12:32 PM - Post#2779785    
    In response to DonSSDD

Hey Don, I went over to local Chevy dealer this afternoon and he gave me the part number but he didn't have any specs on the spring but this is what I found when I searched the number. Could you check with your friend to see if these are the ones he is talking about? Thank you, Lamar

Attachment: GM__10212811_-_Copy.jpg (172.61 KB) 11 View(s)






 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-08-19 01:41 PM - Post#2779787    
    In response to PLS

I'd say that's it but I'll check and advise.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-08-19 02:07 PM - Post#2779791    
    In response to DonSSDD





 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-08-19 02:22 PM - Post#2779793    
    In response to PLS

He agreed that will work fine. Keep moving forward.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-08-19 07:20 PM - Post#2779807    
    In response to DonSSDD

Don, I just got back home and this is the first chance I have had to reply to you. I called the guy that I talked to today and told him that I would go ahead and order them. He had told me this afternoon that they were a special order and there could be a problem in getting them since GM has been on strike and when he actually checked he said that it could be a few weeks. He could not give me even an estimated time that they would be in and the special orders require a non-refundable prepayment. He looked for another dealer and found that it indicated that they had one #10212811 spring. Since this spring is going to be troublesome to get could you get your friend to take a look again at the Edelbrocks 5794 since it comes with the seals and retainers, these seem to be readily available. You didn’t know what you were saying when you said “keep asking questions” , Lamar



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-09-19 07:25 AM - Post#2779828    
    In response to PLS

No need for new seals and retainers. Those Edelbrock springs have a 110 lb pressure, the GM are 80 lbs, I'd say 80-90 max.
Rockauto has a good price on a Melling VS2229, I'll see if that is OK.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-09-19 08:13 AM - Post#2779831    
    In response to DonSSDD

The Melling is fine, (Rockauto shows me a price of CDN$1.96 each) or a Sealed Power VS1641. Melling are a good brand.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-09-19 08:51 AM - Post#2779834    
    In response to DonSSDD

Thank you for all of your help!!! Will let you know how it goes. Again thank you. Lamar



 
PLS 
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
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11-09-19 10:04 AM - Post#2779837    
    In response to DonSSDD

Just ordered them from Rockauto, supposed to receive them Thursday. Will keep you informed. Thank you 😊 and also your friend.



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-09-19 06:35 PM - Post#2779862    
    In response to PLS

Thanks, that’s why we get paid the big bucks.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1523
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-10-19 06:24 AM - Post#2779885    
    In response to DonSSDD

it should be doubled!!



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-10-19 06:29 AM - Post#2779886    
    In response to PLS

  • PLS Said:
Just ordered them from Rockauto, supposed to receive them Thursday. Will keep you informed. Thank you 😊 and also your friend.


Just curious what the cost was, it seemed extremely low. I wondered if rock auto were getting out of them as a listing or something.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1523
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-10-19 12:16 PM - Post#2779905    
    In response to DonSSDD

Yes they did seem extremely low compared to anywhere else. Total: tax and shipping $33.57



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 7297
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
11-10-19 12:20 PM - Post#2779906    
    In response to PLS

A fast food lunch for you and the wife? Cheap.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-10-19 12:32 PM - Post#2779907    
    In response to DonSSDD

about what it cost us this afternoon after Church.



 
PLS 
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
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11-18-19 04:12 PM - Post#2780447    
    In response to PLS

I got my new springs last Friday and today was the first chance that I have had to get back on it, as you can see it is in three pieces. I should have ordered the valve stem seals when I ordered the springs so I have got to go tomorrow and see if I can find the ones that I need. Lamar

Attachment: IMG_8297.JPG (845.6 KB) 8 View(s)






 
Techhead 
Senior Member
Posts: 912
Techhead
Loc: Etobicoke, Canada
Reg: 10-25-05
11-19-19 01:56 PM - Post#2780528    
    In response to PLS

WTF?

What did they say when you told them that it arrived in thee pieces?

I'll be Frank, this hobby isn't getting any easier.
58 Delray in disaray


 
beagrizzly 
"11th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2123
beagrizzly
Age: 69
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
11-19-19 02:47 PM - Post#2780536    
    In response to PLS

Lamar,
Sorry to hear about the spring problem. I had a thought on why they are failing.
This engine has set for nearly 40 years. Did you ever turn it over with the starter, or even by hand during that time? If not, the springs that failed are probably the ones that were open while it sat. They took a set at that height, and when you asked them to come back to unsprung height, they couldn't over come 40 years of being compressed.
I would change them all. The tech has changed a LOT since 1980.

Griff

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-20-19 10:25 AM - Post#2780597    
    In response to beagrizzly

  • Techhead Said:
WTF?

What did they say when you told them that it arrived in thee pieces?




Frank, let me back up and clarify a little, it is the old spring that is pictured, sorry about that.






  • beagrizzly Said:
Lamar,
Sorry to hear about the spring problem. I had a thought on why they are failing.
This engine has set for nearly 40 years. Did you ever turn it over with the starter, or even by hand during that time? If not, the springs that failed are probably the ones that were open while it sat. They took a set at that height, and when you asked them to come back to unsprung height, they couldn't over come 40 years of being compressed.
I would change them all. The tech has changed a LOT since 1980.

Griff




Griff you are probably correct. According to the invoices that I posted I had the engine work done March of 1980 and after talking to my neighbor, that reassembled the engine, we think that it was in late 1982 when he did this for me and the engine sat until Jan. 11, 2014 when I fired it up for the first time. No, it had never been turned over until I was preparing it for startup, adjusting the valves. Back in 2011 after I got it out of its hole and got the engine and transmission removed, again, I had to decide what to do since it had been so many years since the engine had been rebuilt, do I redo it again or just try it. I put the engine on my engine stand and removed the oil pan and it looked brand new inside and I decided that I was going to give it a shot and so far it has done really good so I don't have any second thoughts about my decision.





Well I got the new valve springs and stem seals for cylinder #7 installed last night. I went with the rope method for holding the valves in the closed position rather than the air method. The main reason is that I was terrified that the piston would be pushed down under the pressure and if I suddenly lost air pressure guess where the valve was going to end up so I wasn’t going to take that chance. It may be a little more trouble but not near as much as having to disassemble the engine just to retrieve a valve. I was having trouble determining when exactly both valves were closed and doing it by myself didn’t help matters. So, I made me a little gizmo so I could watch as I bumped the remote. There are quite a few degrees from the last movement of the pushrods to the next movement, so I set it half way between, installed the rockers and did my adjustment. Checked the pressure on #7 again and now it is up there with the other 7 cylinders. Now I’m going to start replacing the other springs and seals. A little video of how the gizmo works. https://youtu.be/zlSe4R4D3ro





Attachment: IMG_8300.JPG (1011.74 KB) 9 View(s)




Attachment: IMG_8301.JPG (841.74 KB) 8 View(s)






Edited by PLS on 11-20-19 10:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
PLS 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
11-21-19 09:49 AM - Post#2780653    
    In response to PLS

After doing the #7 first doing #5 was a breeze. Trying to get the rope in the #7 cylinder was a pain so I came up with this “gizmo”. I used a spark plug non-fouler, a barbed fitting (drilled out), one foot of ½” ID hose and some ¼” nylon rope which is a little stiffer that the cotton rope that I tried the first time. It is easier pushing the rope in using both hands but had to hold the phone with one hand. Not sure how far down the piston was but I pushed about 8’ into the cylinder and the valves were really tight. If the tubing was a little more flexible it would make it much easier to get the gizmo into the spark plug hole. Now on to the rest of the springs. Lamar

Video using gismo https://youtu.be/h1SiuAV-Lms

Attachment: IMG_8313.JPG (103.13 KB) 10 View(s)




Attachment: IMG_8314.JPG (115.76 KB) 11 View(s)






Edited by PLS on 11-21-19 01:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
PLS 
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PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
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11-21-19 02:28 PM - Post#2780680    
    In response to PLS

So……, I got the springs on #5 changed this morning and this afternoon after I got home, I was preparing to install the rockers and adjust the valves on #5. I wiped the rocker studs off and I felt a rough place on the exhaust valve rocker stud and with a closer look I found this (pictured). Any ideas what would have caused this? This could have been there when they rebuilt the heads in 1980, who knows. I want to change the stud and now I have a question, HOW? Lamar

Attachment: IMG_8315.JPG (590.25 KB) 10 View(s)




Attachment: IMG_8319.JPG (762.13 KB) 8 View(s)


The rocker arm seems to have been contacting the valve stem off centered as well as the intake rocker. I have a box with some old rocker arms and most of them were contacting the valve stem also.




 
PLS 
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PLS
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11-21-19 03:34 PM - Post#2780682    
    In response to PLS

After looking on line for removal and installing rocker studs I found a few different ways. Since there is no way that I can see of using a press to install a new stud with the heads installed would my best bet be to use this tool https://www.amazon.com/Cams-5306-Rocker-Pull er-Gui... and a screw in stud? Lamar



 
Techhead 
Senior Member
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Techhead
Loc: Etobicoke, Canada
Reg: 10-25-05
11-21-19 05:34 PM - Post#2780699    
    In response to PLS

You could probably make a stud puller for less than half that.

No idea how the stud would end up with that gouge in it??


I'll be Frank, this hobby isn't getting any easier.
58 Delray in disaray


 
PLS 
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PLS
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11-21-19 07:10 PM - Post#2780711    
    In response to Techhead

I could use a nut and some washers to remove the stud but what I like about the tool is the ability to tap the stud hole supposedly straighter than doing it free handed.



 
PLS 
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PLS
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12-05-19 06:04 PM - Post#2781554    
    In response to PLS

I said in my post on 11-7-19 that “I disassembled the engine had it vatted and it needed boring .040. The machine shop that did this also reworked the heads.” Now I’m not so sure of the heads being reworked because there are to many things that just doesn’t add up. I have a little less than 1000 miles on the engine and it is hard to believe that the rocker arm could have worn that much of a gap in the one stud in such short time. The stud next to it also was starting to get a gap in it as well. Also, the rockers on the valve stem end are worn. Another thing is that I have the receipts for the engine parts back in 1980 but I have yet to fine anything what so ever that has anything to do with the heads so I’m thinking that I just cleaned the heads up and reinstalled them. When I removed the springs, I found that none of the umbrella seals were in place and most were up inside the spring so could this have been part of the oil consumption problem and oil on the spark plugs? After I got the springs off, I pushed a couple of the seals back on valve stems to see how they fit and there was no friction at all, they would just drop on. I used a borescope to watch the pistons come to TDC and I could see some deposits on top of them. I’m going to try and find a better scope because the image isn’t really that clear with the scope that I have.
I purchased a “Stud puller and Tap guide” and it came with 16 threaded studs. It wouldn’t go over two studs at the same time but worked great when I tapped the holes. Before I forget I want to stop and thank DonSSDD for letting me pester him thru this process via PM’s and emails. I got the two studs removed and the holes tapped. I removed the #5 exhaust stud first and used a strip of t-shirt to poke down in the hole. The void below this stud was small and shallow and was able to retrieve the strip with a screw but the void below the #3 exhaust stud was bigger and deeper and I was afraid that I would have a problem getting the strip out so I just used the shop vac while tapping the hole and then vac’ed it out and could not see anything down inside. Soooo… I have all new umbrella seal, all new springs and all new rocker arm installed and I am now ready to adjust the valves/lash. I have watched a ton of videos on this topic and they all seem to accomplish the same thing in a different way, remove the play between the push rod and rocker arms then turn an additional 1/2 to 3/4 turn depending on the video. It seems to be three main ways, 1. Do each cylinder one at a time, 2. Bring #1 to TDC and do both INTAKE & EXHAUST and do certain valves, rotate to #6 and do the rest. 3. Then there is this one… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EGlb_VpTAw
I am leaning toward this procedure, any thoughts. Here is a link to a video of what I did, may not be perfectly correct but it is how I “done” it. https://youtu.be/CWNBZjzsqOQ Lamar


Attachment: IMG_8346__2_.JPG (47 KB) 6 View(s)






 
vet65b 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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vet65b
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Reg: 02-09-06
12-05-19 07:43 PM - Post#2781561    
    In response to PLS

Lamar,
vet65b here from the '65 forum. I have been lurking in the background reading about your problems. You don't deserve all the trouble you are having!
I have seen rocker studs with slots cut in them by the rocker arms on my engine in the past. My problem, which may NOT be yours, was incorrect pushrod length. Check your rocker arm geometry/push rod length with a cheap tool such as Manley #42137. Other manufactures exist, this is just one I have had for years.
Depending on what machine work was done years ago (block decking, head milling, cam with more lift) your pushrods may now be to long or to short which will change the arc your rocker arms operate in. This change, if great enough, can cause the rocker to groove the stud. Check the other 15 studs also, as well as measure length of ALL pushrods. Good luck! Bill

Bill Wilhelm
1965 Impala SS
1966 Corvette, ordered for my 23rd. birthday


 


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