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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: Removing rust from sheetmetal        (Topic#285062)
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-03-12 06:15 PM - Post#2255466    

My 18 year old went out and bought a 1978 Volkswagen bus! I told him I'd buy him a Camaro or Mustang, anything, he wanted a bus? Ok, it's still my best chance to bond with him since I got him away from the video games.
So here is my question, it is full of surface rust and some rust thru spots. I sanded down one of the spots on the roof to get your opinion on what to next.
In the photo I sanded with 80 grit till very smooth but you can still see some rust on the surface. What is my next step, I am guessing a liquid chemical treatment then a coat of epoxy? Any suggestions? I do plan to do the entire roof at the same time and sandblast the gutter area also.
Thanks,
Charlie





"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


Edited by bowtieollie on 08-04-12 10:11 AM. Reason for edit: edit title for topic and sticky

 




100 CHEVY 
Dedicated Member
Posts: 6313
100 CHEVY
Loc: Helena,Missippi,U.S.A.
Reg: 12-09-04
08-03-12 07:23 PM - Post#2255481    
    In response to Charlie57

Use phosforic acid.(after you get the old paint off)
Put it on,scrub it with a stiff brush.Don't let it dry!
Wash it off with Dawn dish soap.Let it dry.Then look for black in the pits.If you can see the black,do it all again.
Pretty soon,the rust will be gone.Then 2 part epoxy primer.
Mike.

"You gonna leave it like that?
http://www.picturetrail.com/100chevy


 
72novaproject 
Senior Member
Posts: 3221
72novaproject
Age: 62
Loc: D/FW Texas
Reg: 02-18-03
08-04-12 08:03 AM - Post#2255598    
    In response to Charlie57

ABOUT BARE METAL:
There are a number of ways to prepare bare steel prior to the application of your paint system. Please understand these are systems and this is the first step so it is important as a foundation. Pro’s tend to use etch primers or direct to metal filler primers due to the speed of the process. Time is money after all. As a hobbyist the following method is what I use. No method is necessarily better than the other and they are all correct and accepted methods. You can decide what works best for you.


PPG TWO STEP METAL TREATMENT TUTORIAL:
As hobbyist, we seldom have the time to complete a metal process (patch, weld grind) and spray protective primer expediently. PPG’s two step metal treatment will allow me to keep my car in bare steel for several months without it rusting. If a spot does re-rust I simply re-treat it until I am ready to spray expensive epoxy primer. Plus, PPG says it promotes “Superior Adhesion” combined with their DP line of epoxy primer which I like.

The example below is a side marker light I shaved on my 72. People come over and marvel at how flat it is and the first thing they do is rub it with their hands. Although it was treated when I finished it, the oil from their hands will make it start to rust again. I re-treated it and took some photos so I could document this process as it come up a lot in discussion.

The following procedure is an embellishment to the product instructions which should be read thoroughly prior to use. I have developed this procedure from using the products many times. To me, it makes the process faster and more efficient. I did the example below in approximately five minutes including product working times.

DX-579 Metal Cleaner:
Mechanically remove loose rust with scotch bright, sandpaper or a wire brush.
Spray DX-579 on the surface and work it in with a red scotch bright pad.
The P-Sheet recommends a mix ratio but I use it full strength at times.
Keep the surface wet with DX-579 until all the rust is gone.
Continue to scrub stubborn areas until clean.
This is an acid and it takes some time to work.
Rinse the surface with clear water while scrubbing it with a red scotch bright pad.
The DX-579 is a little slimy so the scrubbing helps ensure it is all gone.
Dry the part with paper towels and blow it dry with compressed air.

DX-520 Metal Conditioner:
After drying the part you may see orange (rust) streaks in the metal.
The DX-520 will remove the light rust streaks.
Spray DX-520 on the surface and scrub it in with a fresh scotch bright pad.
Just work it in initially and then put the scotch bright down for good.
Keep the surface wet with DX-520 until you see it turn a dull gray.
DX-520 deposits a microscopic zinc phosphate coating that builds up on the surface.
The longer you leave it on the darker it will get with the coating.
The coating acts as a sacrificial anode to prevent rust similar to galvanizing.
Don’t continue to scrub with scotch bright or you will remove the coating.
Rinse the part with sheeting clear water to remove the DX-520.
Immediately dry the part with a paper towel and blow dry.
Try not to touch the part with your bare hands after treating.

TIPS FOR USE:
With light surface rust you can skip the DX-579 step. The DX-520 will remove it.
You still need to clean the treated surface with wax and grease remover prior to primer.
The products are water soluble and can be applied with a pump spray bottle.
After 24 hours you should re-treat with DX-520 only prior to priming.
I don’t wear gloves but you probably should with the DX-579.
Oddly, I found the DX-579 will remove mill scale.

PHOTOS:

Before the final welding and metal finishing. Note the date stamp.


After several months with people touching it. Note the date stamp.


After the DX-579, dry and ready for DX-520.


Surface is wet with DX-520 as it deposits zinc phosphate. It is a little sudsy (surfactant quality) so it stays wet and rinses off easily. Note how the acid shows the difference in the weld metal and parent metal.


Clean and dry, the surface will now remain rust free as I work on other areas of the car.

These spray bottles are at Home Depot and work well for application. And before you ask, no, that is not my FORD in the back ground.


This is a much larger area. In fact I did the entire trunk area all at one time after tubing my car. It took me about 20 minutes.


This is a link to the P-Sheet # P-226 (instructions) from PPG.
LINK TO PPG P-SHEET # P-226

Hope this helps,

Steve


To each problem exists a solution...now think.

The ZD Nova Page


 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-04-12 07:50 PM - Post#2255809    
    In response to 72novaproject

Steve,
Thanks, that is great information. I will purchase the products and use them.
Here is another question. The rust in the photo below is inside the van and will be covered by DynaMat and carpet. I do not need to make this look like it was never there but I would like to make it look better and stop the rust. I am thinking, sanding the area the best I can, using the stuff you said, then some POR15 and then the Dynamat.
Thanks,
Charlie
In this photo the floor meets the seat base which is covered in glue. I just washed out the van so its still wet in the photo.




"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
72novaproject 
Senior Member
Posts: 3221
72novaproject
Age: 62
Loc: D/FW Texas
Reg: 02-18-03
08-05-12 06:01 AM - Post#2255889    
    In response to Charlie57

Charlie, that is exactly what I would do with one exception. No POR-15 for me.

If there are no holes in the sheet metal I would sooner paint it with a zinc rich paint. Home Depot sells a spray can called “Cold Galvanizing Compound” which is a fancy way of saying it has a lot of zinc in it. The zinc solids act as the sacrificial anode and the enamel paint encapsulates the rust as a moisture barrier. I use it on commercial metal buildings on rusted roof top equipment exposed to the weather and you would be surprised how long it holds up. Like any paint, solid prep will improve the performance.

Steve


To each problem exists a solution...now think.

The ZD Nova Page


 
bowtieollie 
ChevyTalk Subject Matter Expert
Posts: 21215
bowtieollie
Loc: See the USA in your Chevr...
Reg: 12-06-99
08-05-12 10:06 AM - Post#2255971    
    In response to 72novaproject

  • 72novaproject Said:
...and you would be surprised how long it holds up....

Steve





Well, I can tell you mine is now 25 years old and still looks like I sprayed it out yesterday. It is darn good material!

Bowtieollie
Chevytalk.com Moderator


 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-05-12 08:17 PM - Post#2256198    
    In response to bowtieollie

I ordered the DX products online and will check with Home Depot for the spray.
Thanks a bunch, say does anyone want to come over and sand for a while?
Charlie

"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
WBrownIV 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 96
WBrownIV
Loc: Arnold Mo.
Reg: 02-14-09
08-06-12 03:45 PM - Post#2256477    
    In response to Charlie57

Charlie,
May I ask who you ordered the DX products from?

And If I was closer I would be right over



 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-06-12 08:55 PM - Post#2256622    
    In response to WBrownIV

I bought them from TCP Global

"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
JGR 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 43
JGR
Age: 58
Loc: mi
Reg: 08-04-12
08-13-12 06:52 PM - Post#2258975    
    In response to Charlie57

I have been in the auto Restoration business for 30 years! sand blast is the only way to go but it must be done right or you will warp the sheet metal. If you can't sandblast POR 15 is the next best thing; it is an awesome product. Always i repeat always use Epoxy primer first on the bare metal then body filler over the epoxy then filler primer
Good luck



 
Axelrod 
Senior Member
Posts: 905

Reg: 02-23-04
08-14-12 04:43 AM - Post#2259053    
    In response to JGR

  • JGR Said:
I have been in the auto Restoration business for 30 years! sand blast is the only way to go but it must be done right or you will warp the sheet metal. If you can't sandblast POR 15 is the next best thing; it is an awesome product. Always i repeat always use Epoxy primer first on the bare metal then body filler over the epoxy then filler primer
Good luck



30 yrs in the biz and POR 15? I consider it more of a shortcut product, not to mention many shortcomings. Better stuff out there for those concerned with quality.



 
az58cameo 
Contributor
Posts: 577
az58cameo
Age: 57
Loc: Payson Az
Reg: 11-16-09
08-15-12 09:46 AM - Post#2259583    
    In response to Axelrod

Now, I am Really confused! Ive been reading articles for some time now on POR15 and what ive read everyone liked it! now i get here and sounds like it's maybe not the way to go?
What would be the concerns as i was thinking of
using it in my Hinge area on my 59 truck! i am replacing the lower hinge pocket area!
Now after reading this maybe I am not going the POR15 Route?
Allen



 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-16-12 09:03 PM - Post#2260128    
    In response to az58cameo

Here is my 2 cents. Over ten years ago I sand blasted my 57 and covered in epoxy the same day. I still have not painted the car and I still end up sanding parts of the car to bare metal. I am finding an alarming amount of very small rust spots. I did not use any chemicals just the epoxy, I know 10 years is a long time but I now endorse the chemical treatment before the epoxy. I have followed Steve's advice above and did the treatment on the bus and a couple of spots on my 57. The rust comes right off and after the treatment you are left with clean shiny metal. So if anyone asked me, chemical treat the bare metal.
Charlie

"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-16-12 09:09 PM - Post#2260130    
    In response to az58cameo

Here is my 2 cents. Over ten years ago I sand blasted my 57 and covered in epoxy the same day. I still have not painted the car and I still end up sanding parts of the car to bare metal. I am finding an alarming amount of very small rust spots. I did not use any chemicals just the epoxy, I know 10 years is a long time but I now endorse the chemical treatment before the epoxy. I have followed Steve's advice above and did the treatment on the bus and a couple of spots on my 57. The rust comes right off and after the treatment you are left with clean shiny metal. So if anyone asked me, chemical treat the bare metal.
Charlie

"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
MPandC 
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3354
MPandC
Loc: Leonardtown, MD
Reg: 03-09-06
08-17-12 08:14 AM - Post#2260226    
    In response to Charlie57

Charlie, what media did you use to sandblast with?

Robert


MP&C Shop Projects


 
az58cameo 
Contributor
Posts: 577
az58cameo
Age: 57
Loc: Payson Az
Reg: 11-16-09
08-17-12 10:15 AM - Post#2260271    
    In response to Charlie57

Charlie i think Steve has suggested a Great way of
getting rid of the Rust Issue (Thanks Steve, for all
Your Help on these Forums) and i for one am Going to
try His suggestion out! But what is Wrong with the POR15?, I had planned on Using it in Hidden area's to
protect These area's from Rust ie,Hinge pocket,air vent area,under Cab Items,and such! There are Guys
that I have met and They said they have Used it and
Like It! But Here Some sound like they don't Care for It?
i am Just a Little Confused!and Like to know what the issue's are because i was thinking of using it
but now Maybe I shouldn't
Bye the way,I really like this forum for all the Great Technical Help and Support I get from everyone here!Thanks
Allen



 
72novaproject 
Senior Member
Posts: 3221
72novaproject
Age: 62
Loc: D/FW Texas
Reg: 02-18-03
08-17-12 11:04 AM - Post#2260289    
    In response to az58cameo

Allen, from what I have read (I have no personal experience with it) the POR-15 (Paint Over Rust) has had problems with delimitation on clean metal. It would be a shame to paint an entire frame with it only to find out it came off of all the areas that were not rusted. I feel that if you have good access, the better approach is to properly prep and paint with conventional products.

That said, I have an area inside the cowl near the rocker that is slightly surface rusted but not structurally compromised. This area has very poor access and only through the kick panel area at that. One option I have considered is to paint the inside of this area with POR-15 using a cheap paint brush and just slather it in there. I think it is a good product for this type of area. I have not tried to prep the area and when I do, if I am satisfied with the results, I will paint it with epoxy primer with a brush instead.

Steve


To each problem exists a solution...now think.

The ZD Nova Page


 
az58cameo 
Contributor
Posts: 577
az58cameo
Age: 57
Loc: Payson Az
Reg: 11-16-09
08-17-12 01:29 PM - Post#2260335    
    In response to 72novaproject

Thanks Steve,
Guess i Should Of been more Clear as I Too was Only thinking of using POR15 in areas that you would not see! was Thinking on my 58 & 59 Front Chrome Grills to use it on the Back side's of the Grills to Prevent rust and on Backs of my Trucks Emblems
Just as a Rust preventative to area's You don't See!

i didn't know there were issues with it out there
like you said!
Thanks Again,
Allen



 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-17-12 05:40 PM - Post#2260391    
    In response to az58cameo

I sandblasted with sand from a sandblasting store (not play sand) it was dry when I did the work.
Charlie

"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
MPandC 
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3354
MPandC
Loc: Leonardtown, MD
Reg: 03-09-06
08-17-12 06:56 PM - Post#2260436    
    In response to Charlie57

Charlie, sand as a blasting media is about the worst thing you can use. Sand in many cases contains caustic salts, and once you break the surface of the metal, it actually has started the rust process (exactly what you're trying to get rid of..) There are many other medias out there that are more suited to restoration work without introducing salts into the mix. Very likely that is what caused your issues with finding rust under the epoxy.

Robert


MP&C Shop Projects


 
utahpaul 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1624
utahpaul
Reg: 09-16-07
08-21-12 09:32 AM - Post#2261688    
    In response to MPandC

I'm very late to this topic guys, but what about "soda blasting", looks to work with water. I've been seeing it on speed/spike TV commercials, and the paint & rust comes right off to bare metal. No warping, looks to work good, has anyone here tried it?



 
Charlie57 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3098
Charlie57
Loc: Lebanon, Tennessee
Reg: 03-30-08
08-21-12 12:10 PM - Post#2261734    
    In response to utahpaul

I think soda blasting is widely accepted I am near the one that blast for PowerBlock TV, I think they wanted $2000 to do the exterior of a car. When I sandblasted my car over 10 years ago sand was pretty much your only choice I had that I could purchase the product locally. If you soda blast there is a step you have to take to remove the residue, at least that is what I have heard.
Charlie

"Charlie's 57 Chevy" I made it's very own FaceBook page please visit and "Like"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Charlies-1957-C hevy/214078481937849


 
utahpaul 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1624
utahpaul
Reg: 09-16-07
08-21-12 03:23 PM - Post#2261791    
    In response to Charlie57

Yes, the power block TV stuff was what I was referring to Charlie, I see through www.eastwood.com & quite a few other companys, you can get your own blaster to do at your house, not too expensive either...



 
hobbypoor 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 93

Age: 48
Loc: Middle Georgia
Reg: 07-07-11
09-07-12 11:10 AM - Post#2267386    
    In response to utahpaul

stay away from soda....over time is causes bad issues. Ive talked to several restorers who used soda, and later ending up painting again when moisture got to the soda that wasnt cleaned out and nuetralized very good...

54 Belair 4 door. Auto.

Put together a piece at a time....twice.

If GM had as hard a time finding parts as I do they would have been out of business years ago.


 
txturbo 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3540

Loc: Rosenberg,TX USA
Reg: 07-27-01
10-08-12 10:53 AM - Post#2277861    
    In response to 72novaproject

I've been using POR-15 for probably 25 years. Only time I've had that problem is in areas that I didn't prep well enough, such as the front crossmember where a lot of oil and grease has accumulated. Like with any other coating....its only as good as the prep.Its true that t will adhere to rusty areas best....but the next best thing is a sand blasted one. So now I blast the "clean" areas before applying it.Also never had a problem with it peeling from sand blasted metal like other people.I just don't see how it can't stick when the lid will stick so good to the top of the can if you don't clean it that the metal will tear before the POR-15 will let go. And that is a shiny metal can.Only thing I can figure is it wasn't rinsed & coated right after blasting or the POR-15 was old.

Dan
1969 Camaro SS 396/T400
1966 Impala 283/PG/AC
1966 Impala SS 427/4 Speed
1948 Panel 1 Ton
1963 Cadillac
1940 Ford P/U
1954 Chevy 3100
1955.2 Chevy 3100
1956 Cadillac CDV PINK
1930 Model A hot rod


 
wagonman100 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 14002
wagonman100
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
10-08-12 06:03 PM - Post#2277985    
    In response to txturbo

I can give you my experience with POR15. I used a starter kit on my El Camino bed. The bed had very deep rust pits in it. The first time I used it, I followed the directions, but the rust started coming back. I didn't primer them because the directions said it wasn't necessary. I don't believe not priming was the problem.

I wire brushed the areas and then applied the acid. I kept it wet for 15 minutes and rinsed with water. I then dried them and applied the POR. It took about a week, but the rust started to peek through again.

I ground off the POR and started again. This time after rinsing it, I dried it with compressed air and then went at them with a heat gun. Then I applied the POR again and then primed with 2K primer. The rust never came back and that was with the spots being out in the weather 24/7 for five years. I think the difference was in drying the spots with the heat gun. The metal needs to be bone dry. I probably should have left one of the spots unprimed to test the theory.

Jay
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.

1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon


 
JGR 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 43
JGR
Age: 58
Loc: mi
Reg: 08-04-12
10-26-12 04:32 PM - Post#2283254    
    In response to Axelrod

30 yrs in the biz and POR 15? I consider it more of a shortcut product, not to mention many shortcomings. Better stuff out there for those concerned with quality.

apparently you did not read it slowly! sand blast is the best; if you cant than use POR 15. Not everyone has access to a blaster or can afford to have it done. Never use soda blasting on steel!!!!





























 
tommytheduck 
Contributor
Posts: 125

Reg: 10-12-10
11-03-12 10:13 PM - Post#2285881    
    In response to JGR

I am in the process of cleaning up some interior panels. Door, armrest, conv piston covers, etc. They are pretty much covered in surface rust with some pits and small holes.

So far I have wire wheeled, power sanded (80 grit), and used naval jelly. Cannot say I'm too fond of the naval jelly as it doesn't seem to work that well. (and reeks) Aside from some flash rust, what should I do next? I think I'm going to treat them again, as I don't think the naval jelly removed enough rust, but with what?

I've seen so many rust products that I don't know what is best. These are going to be covered in vinyl, but I still would like them to stay clean.

There's been a lot of talk about POR15. And the 579/520 combo. With black spots still in the pits, and minor flash rust, should I use the 579/520 combo, or would it be safe to go straight to the POR15?

Anyone have experience with KBS? Also read about something called Picklex?

Perhaps I'm thinking too hard, as these surfaces won't be seen and don't have to be painted, but I just want to make sure I;m doing t right, you know..
Thanks for your advice.



 
beagrizzly 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1837
beagrizzly
Age: 68
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
03-11-13 05:58 PM - Post#2325188    
    In response to utahpaul

  • utahpaul Said:
I'm very late to this topic guys, but what about "soda blasting", looks to work with water. I've been seeing it on speed/spike TV commercials, and the paint & rust comes right off to bare metal. No warping, looks to work good, has anyone here tried it?


i'm a little late to this party, but any one with high school chemistry should be able to tell you that "Soda" is SALT!! mixed with the water you wash it off with it becomes "salt-water" my 2 pennies.
i had a friend that used coal for his delicate work. he loved it.

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
DwayneAB 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 3

Reg: 02-18-15
02-18-15 11:10 PM - Post#2524572    
    In response to JGR

JGR - are you saying use the filler and primer before using POR?



 




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