• EZ Street Said:

Yeah, that reminds me of this unit from FAST EFI for alcohol/methanol fuel: http://www.fuelairspark.com/Products/details/mete r... I don't know if the FAST unit is integrated to their ECU (I would hope so) but the air/fuel ratio meter you linked does not; so the ECU can't use its feedback to self-tune or modify the fuel tables.

Another interesting product: http://www.daytona-sensors.com/WEGO3.html (scroll down to "Methanol Calibration")
Also, I think you'll find page 10 of this FJO wideband kit interesting: http://www.fjoracing.com/products/WBAFR/docs/M WI40...

I'm pretty sure he said between 3.0 and 3.5 but maybe I'd better check. EZ

• EZ Street Said:

No, you're correct. It's just seems strange because the aforementioned units can't read that low because they're using Bosch WBO2 sensors. The NTK WBO2 sensor reads a little lower - down to 0.635 Lambda (4.1 AFR-methanol) but not low enough for the typical methanol use. (The Holley Dominator is compatible with the NTK WBO2 sensor.)


This Lambda 5220 sensor from ECM Co., reads down to 0.4 Lambda (2.5 AFR-methanol):
http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?5220
Their Lambda Pro reads down to 0.55 Lambda (3.5 AFR-methanol):
http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?lpro

• Danny Cabral Said:

Danny, Dennis, Doug
That must be the NTK sensor they're using on the ECM Lambda 5220 to read down to 2.5 on the alcohol scale. Is that a sensor that could work with the Dominator to attain the level of accuracy and the range required to tune alcohol fueled race cars. Is the re-calibration programming ability for the sensor something that wouldn't be to difficult to add to the Dominator?
Apparently the re-calibration of the sensor, from time to time, is a major factor in the accuracy of the readings when it's used in such a harsh environment. What do you think??? EZ

The 6ma is the one that can read lower which is the big $option on bs3 I believe. We use the 4ma which is what FAST uses. We'll likely offer the 6ma as an option in the future.

Doug_F, I've been looking for this NGK/NTK Lambda 6mA Sensor to see how much this P/N 05-01 actually costs....can't find it, would you happen to know. EZ

NTK wideband O2 UEGO, LZA03-E1 Sensor - free air pump current 6 mA:
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/...
http://www.lsxtune.com/shop/product_info.php/produ...
(This is the NTK laboratory grade sensor, not the typical NTK L1H1/L2H2 types.)
http://motorsport.magnetimarelli.com/PDF/Sensors/S...

Question: Does anyone know the NTK 5-digit part number for the LZA03-E1 WBO2 sensor (i.e. 24300) or if it applies?

The WBO2 sensor is responsible for accuracy of AFRs. (High accuracy costs more.)
The controller is responsible for capability of reading very rich or very lean AFRs.

It also costs less to manufacture WBO2 controllers that only need to be capable of 10:1 to 18:1 air/fuel ratios (typical gasoline performance engines).
It's very expensive when you need capability of measuring to the end ranges of the WBO2 sensor's reading (typical methanol racing engines).

Regardless of independent capability or accuracy, the WBO2 sensor (NTK UEGO or Bosch LSU4.x) and its controller, is a specific engineered pair, only designed to be used with each other. The WBO2 sensor itself, is useless without its corresponding controller. Currently, almost all aftermarket ECUs are only capable of reading the less accurate NTK WBO2 sensor, which is more than sufficient for most performance enthusiasts.

I called the general manager at NGK Advanced Products Group and learned more.
Here are some notes on what we discussed:
• The NTK LZA08-E1 (4mA) is the latest version of the LZA03-E1 (6mA) sensor. Both are expensive, high grade sensors.
• "Type A", "Type C" and "Type D" pertain to the WBO2 sensor's controller (NGK TC-6350A, TC-6350C, TC-6350D), not the sensor. The LZA08-E1 sensor can be used with all three. We shared the same views on aftermarket WB controllers (read below).
• He doesn't know anything about "laboratory grade" NTK sensors, other than they're probably custom WBO2 sensors made for companies like ECM Co.
• NTK WBO2 sensors don't have 5-digit part numbers, he claims those are manufacturer's part numbers (i.e. Honda, VW, Subaru, etc.) for NTK WBO2 sensors, made for them. So in other words, it may have a 5-digit part number but not from NGK.
• ECM Co. (DR. Ron Patrick) helped design the NGK Powerdex AFX WBO2 kit. Of course, it's equipped with the less expensive sensor to keep the price down.
• The most shocking thing he said, was the NTK WBO2 sensor isn't very accurate at air/fuel ratios richer than 10:1. Lower quality WB controllers worsen this situation. He couldn't even suggest using any WBO2 sensor with methanol AFRs as rich as 3:1. Also, methanol (alcohol racing fuel) is highly corrosive and contains moisture that will eventually kill the sensor. Another reason why it's highly recommended to flush a methanol fuel system with racing gasoline after each use.

I received two PDF documents from NGK; NTK LZA08-E1 WBO2 sensor and LZA03-E1 vs. LZA08-E1 sensor. I also have a Bosch LSU4.2 data sheet. I can email these documents to anyone who wants them.

FYI: I've found OxygenSensor.net an economical resource for purchasing WBO2 sensors.

Lab Grade High End Sensor
NTK LZA08-E1
NTK LZA03-E1
NTK 24300
NTK 24301
NTK 24302
(scroll down to read brief descriptions)

• Danny Cabral Said:

Gee, Have a look here!
http://www.newtiburon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=...
http://tunertools.com/articles/FordMuscle.pdf

Danny, Excellent post. If somehow we come up with a way for the Dominator to read Alcohol (Methanol) as proficiently as the BS3, which I would hope Holley would strive to at least equal the BS3 performance, in that respect. Would the Dominator be able to adjust the air-fuel ratios automatically for weather changes so it wouldn't go lean for example, if the temperature drops during the day. Apparently this is something the BS3 does and I figured the Dominator would as well as it has the ability to change fuel types.
Regards, Paul.

• EZ Street Said:

Yes, when Holley adds the necessary NTK WBO2 sensor to measure methanol rich air/fuel ratios, it will be able to do so in closed loop. Remember, their ECU also serves as the wideband controller. The Dominator is currently capable of user-selectable fuel types (Gasoline, E85 & Methanol).

There is a setting for fuel. You can select Gas, E85 or Methanol. We use the standard L2H2 NTK sensor.

Also, the WBO2 sensors used in the Dominator and HP EFI systems are factory calibrated for use with these systems. You cannot plug & play another LSU4.2 or NTK L2H2 in from another supplier. Therefore it would make that sensor "non plug & play" without calibration and at least a look into the code to run it.

The sensor doesn't limit the range, it is the controller.
We can offer a similar product which is made by the same manufacturer and has a standard, B, C & D range:

Std. Version: 0.55 to 1.24 ?, 8.0 to 18.0 AFR (gasoline), 3.55 to 7.99 (methanol)
B Version: 0.41 to 1.37 ?, 6.0 to 20.0 AFR (gasoline), 2.66 to 8.86 (methanol)
C Version: 0.69 to 1.37 ?, 10.0 to 18.0 AFR (gasoline), 4.44 to 8.89 (methanol)
D Version: 0.30 to 1.15 ?, 4.37 to 16.74 AFR (gasoline), 1.94 to 7.44 (methanol)

The kit with a lab grade sensor is approximately $1700 for one of the non-standard versions. There are other less expensive meters that would work for your application but few that work reliably and consistently for the range you require. If you need to be in this lambda / AFR range, you would presumably be making large amounts of horsepower on the edge and would not want to cut corners.

NGK Powerdex AFX - Air Fuel Ratio Monitor Kit - Wideband O2 - PN 91101 - w/ Upgraded Sensor (NTK) Part # SNSR-01000-NTK

James Ballenger
sales@bmotorsports.com
http://www.bmotorsports.com
Phone: (804) 915-7201

Hi Danny,
Have you heard anything from Doug on the alcohol reading issue?
Thanks Danny
EZ Street/Paul.