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Username Post: Converting a 55-64 NON-posi rear to posi        (Topic#223802)
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
04-30-10 07:30 PM - Post#1907772    
    In response to DZAUTO

I'm going to have to answer 'no', but maybe it's because I don't have any exposure to Japanese cars, other than replacing a clutch in a Honda. I know I've had to replace two wheel bearings in my VW Jetta.

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 

Ecklers AutoMotive

56driver 
Contributor
Posts: 338

Loc: Charlotte, NC
Reg: 02-26-06
04-30-10 08:10 PM - Post#1907783    
    In response to DZAUTO

  • DZAUTO Said:
<SNIP>
Well, as bad as I hate to face the issue, here is my viewpoint on Jap bearings. Every see a failed bearing on a Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc?



I've seen exactly one, 20 years ago. But point taken.




Jonathan Hines
Charlotte, NC
56 BA 4DR sedan undergoing rebuild


 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
05-01-10 05:36 PM - Post#1908143    
    In response to 56driver

So these should be reputable bearings.. Another question- Are there any drawbacks to having a posi rear such as the Eaton unit? I'm considering installing one in my 3x2 348 manual trans 1958 Impala that I pretty much just cruise in, with some punching involved. The Eaton unit is supposed to be chatter-free and other than chatter, I don't know of any other disadvantages in having a posi rear for a cruiser.

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
05-03-10 09:46 AM - Post#1909174    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

I don't care what car, engine, tranny or power output you have, a posi rear in ANY car (that is qualified by a posi in GOOD condition) will be a stronger rear.
WHY???
First, because the power is split, and transmitted to BOTH axles. Under slippage conditions, such as with a non-posi rear (when only one wheel is spinning), ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the power is absorbed by just ONE axle. Also, once an axle on one side of a non-posi rear is spinning, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the torque and abuse is being exerted on those axle and spider gears which are spinning and spinning around each other in the differential----------a sure way to destroy a differential!!! This does not happen in a properly functioning posi rear.
Put the Eaton in (or, if you obtain a GOOD factory posi unit, put it in). I've posted detailed procedures for converting a 55-64 NON-posi rear into a posi.
So, is a posi rear beneficial to increasing the life, and strength of a rearend? You bet!!!



 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
05-03-10 12:30 PM - Post#1909261    
    In response to DZAUTO

Thanks Tom. That answers that question. I even heard of 6cyl cars with posi rears. I had an open 4.11 rear where the axle and spider gears were binding because the spider gear shaft was badly galled. Somebody was apparently doing some peg-leg burnouts with that rear. Alright, so I'll order that Eaton posi rear!

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
05-03-10 03:13 PM - Post#1909337    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back during the Civil War days, when I was running a 261 6cyl truck engine in the 51 with the Corvette 3carb setup, I had converted it to an open drive line with a short (58-62 style) 3sp and a 56 axle housing. I also had a 3.70 posi rear behind the 6cyl at that time. With the Corvette exhaust manifold and dual exhaust, it sure sounded good, but it just WOULD NOT rpm with the V8s!



 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
05-17-10 01:07 PM - Post#1916342    
    In response to DZAUTO

Two questions Tom- I see you have the differential housing and the pinion flange painted black. I understand the '58 - up differential was painted black. Was the assembled rear axle painted as a unit? Is black also correct for the pinion flange? Also, I just received my Eaton posi unit today. With it came a red card saying that the 19686-010 requires special bearings- LM-102949 & LM-102911. Really? It seems that the stock-type bearing inner race will fit the Eaton unit.

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
05-18-10 05:53 AM - Post#1916714    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

  • WSSmolik Said:
Two questions Tom- I see you have the differential housing and the pinion flange painted black. I understand the '58 - up differential was painted black. Was the assembled rear axle painted as a unit? Is black also correct for the pinion flange? Also, I just received my Eaton posi unit today. With it came a red card saying that the 19686-010 requires special bearings- LM-102949 & LM-102911. Really? It seems that the stock-type bearing inner race will fit the Eaton unit.



Trust me, TRUST ME, TRUST ME!!!!!!
I have been meaning to contact Eaton (don't ask me why I haven't, I just haven't------NO EXCUSE) about the bearings that they call out on that card. The bearings they call out on that card are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just as you suspected, so use the stock, readily available bearings for 55-64 rears.
Now, here is what's even worse on my part----------------WHY HAVEN'T I POINTED OUT THIS ERROR TO YOU GUYS HERE ON THE FORUM???????????????
Could be that Tom Parsons is just negligent! I have no excuse for that either!



 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
05-18-10 07:01 AM - Post#1916747    
    In response to DZAUTO

Thanks Tom; you rock! I did a little researching and it seemed that the bearing Eaton calls for for this unit is for later model applications or they're wheel bearings.

How about the color of the pinion flange for a '58 differential - black?

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
05-18-10 10:30 AM - Post#1916835    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

  • WSSmolik Said:
Thanks Tom;

How about the color of the pinion flange for a '58 differential - black?



OK, here's what I know, and here's what I've been doing. These rears were built as a complete axle housing assembly (brake drum to brake drum) at one of two plants, Detroit Gear and Axle plant, or the Buffalo (NY) plant. After complete assembly was accomplished, the entire assembly was painted black BEFORE being shipped to the various assembly plants. Now, you know the saying--------don't buy a car built on a Monday because the workers were hung over from the weekend and don't buy a car built on Friday because the workers are in a hurry to get off for the weekend (never heard that? that's older than I am!). My point is that depending on the mood of the worker, time of day (just before break, just before lunch or just before the end of a shift) and the overall quality control at a plant, an axle housing assembly may have received a THOROUGH coat of black paint, or, it may have got a lick and a promise.
The 55-56 and EARLY 57 rearend center cases were painted some sort of a red oxide (like red primer) on the inside and the outside----BEFORE going to the machining processes (if you study an unmolested center case you can tell the machining was done AFTER painting. Sometime during mid-57 production of the rearend center case, the inside was no longer painted, and apparently the outside ONLY got black paint. How thoroughly? Again, that's anyone's guess!
Now, the first picture below shows how I finish MOST rears for customers--------------I ALWAYS consult with the owner FIRST before finishing/painting. My PREFERRED paint is satin black. The ACE hardware stores carry BOTH Rustoleum and their own in-house brand called Rust Stop. The ACE brand is about $1./can cheaper. It appears to be an enamel based paint and takes most of the day to dry to the touch and about 3days to cure. I paint the CASE (NOT the caps) BEFORE assembly then wipe off the over spray from the mounting flange and the bearing surfaces with lacquer thinner, brake cleaner, whatever. If a rear is a 55-early 57, and the interior red is faint, then I paint the inside (and outside if owner prefers) with Red Primer from ACE. On mid-57 and later, I DO NOT paint inside. SOME of the rears have hand brushed paint markings on the inside that designated pinion shim thickness (this marking IS NOT the shim thickness, it is from a table in the manual for rearend assembly). After a case is cleaned, I thoroughly blast it down to bare cast iron inside and out (if the inside can be just cleaned and the paint marking is clearly visible, I don't blast the inside, but if I do have to blast the inside and there is a hand painted shim marking, I re-paint by hand the shim marking). Now, again, per the owner's preference, I either paint the pinion yoke with the same satin black, or, since the pinion yoke has been blasted to bare metal, I VERY lightly dust it with a cast blast coat. This retains the appearance of a bare yoke, but also provides some protection from surface rusting forming. You can see this in the first picture.


Here is the inside of a virgin EARLY 57 case that I only cleaned.


Here is the inside of another EARLY 57 case that I blasted, painted and hand painted the shim marking.


This is the outside of that same case after painting satin black, befoe assembly.


This is the outside of the same case after assembly and the yoke painted satin black.




This is the inside of a 59 case (after thorough cleaning). NO PAINT, which is what the inside of a 58 case would look like.


This is the inside of that same 59 case after blasting (notice shim marking is now gone) and after I trimmed away a portion of the gusset to allow room for installing a posi unit.


Soooooooooooooooo, with all that said, was the entire rear (including yoke) of a 58 black, was the yoke seperately bare metal, or what? Your guess is as good as mine. BUT, based on the knowledge that I've picked up over the years, EVERYTHING between the drums should be (chassis) black. OK, so where did I come up with the bare metal finish on the yoke? Darn, I admit, oldtimers disease has got me------------I don't remember. But several owners prefer the black case and bare metal appearance of the yoke, including a particular owner who has me build rears for very early Vettes (which use the same rear) that are meticulously restored.



 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
05-18-10 05:30 PM - Post#1917045    
    In response to DZAUTO

Again, thanks!! You really go into detailed discussions. Up until now, I've only worked with '55 and '56 differentials and I gathered that all those were painted red oxide inside and out before machining. The pinion yoke was left natural or the flange was maybe plated, but always appeared metal. Now I'm onto building a rear for my '58 (which is actually a '57 unit) and I knew I had to paint the housing black, but was unsure about the yoke. But if the entire axle was painted as an assembled unit, like you said- everything is going to get painted black; yoke and mounting nuts and copper washers. Those would have all been in place on an assembled axle. Thanks Tom! Black it is. I thoroughly cleaned out the inside with brake cleaner and an old toothbrush, so I'm leaving the mostly-intact red oxide paint.

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
62chevy427 
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2132
62chevy427
Loc: laurens sc
Reg: 04-13-06
06-30-10 05:47 AM - Post#1938427    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

koyo bought out timken so you may have timken bearings. i think koyo actually brought back the torrington bearing name.

56 bel air ((since 2002)
62 impala ss (since 1965)
65 el camino (since 1969)
66 nova (since 1987)
67 malibu convertible (since 1981)
72 el camino ss454 (since 1985)
83 gmc 4wd (since 1991)
95 impala (new)
14 camaro (new)


 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
06-30-10 07:15 PM - Post#1938712    
    In response to 62chevy427

Thanks for the info! From what I hear, Koyo is reputable for bearings.

Hey Tom- two questions. 1st- I just removed the 3.08 3rd member from my '58 axle. When looking at it from the front, there is a raised ring around the entire perimeter around 1/8" wide and it encompasses the 10 bolt holes. From the inside, it looks like a '55/'56 differential because it lacks the carrier side bearing support reinforced webbing. I think the casting # is 3790614. What is this?

Also, what rear end lube do you recommend using with an Eaton posi rear? Regular hypoid axle lubricant? Regular hypoid axle lubricant with an additive? Is there a special posi rear lube?

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
07-01-10 07:25 PM - Post#1939236    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

  • WSSmolik Said:
Thanks for the info! From what I hear, Koyo is reputable for bearings.

Hey Tom- two questions. 1st- I just removed the 3.08 3rd member from my '58 axle. When looking at it from the front, there is a raised ring around the entire perimeter around 1/8" wide and it encompasses the 10 bolt holes. From the inside, it looks like a '55/'56 differential because it lacks the carrier side bearing support reinforced webbing. I think the casting # is 3790614. What is this?

Also, what rear end lube do you recommend using with an Eaton posi rear? Regular hypoid axle lubricant? Regular hypoid axle lubricant with an additive? Is there a special posi rear lube?



What you got son, is a 62-63 ChevyII rearend! You DO NOT want this!
I never discuss the 62-63 ChevyII rears because they are lighter and weaker than a 55-56 rear. Yes, as you have seen, the 62-63 ChevyII center section interchanges into any 55-64 housing. And that's where it all ends!!! NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING, is interchangeable between the ChevyII ane 55-64 center sections. The ring gear carrier, ring & pinion, bearings, yoke, seal, etc, are all different. Also, the 57-64 posi or the Eaton posi units WILL NOT FIT!!!
Somehow, someway, at some time in the past, someone stuck one of these ChevyII rears in your 58.
You need to start a search for some other 57-64 center section.
Sorry, that's not what you wanted to know--------------------b ut you asked.

Use a good 80w90 gear lube, PLUS, one bottle of GM posi additive for an Eaton posi unit.



 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
07-01-10 07:56 PM - Post#1939246    
    In response to DZAUTO

Thanks Tom. That answers that. I thought everything looked a bit "different" about this 3.08 rear I have. I knew it wasn't original to this car because it has a '62 date code and a 3.08 wasn't available in '58. I have a '57 center section totally rebuilt with the Eaton posi ready to be installed.

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
07-06-10 11:15 AM - Post#1941275    
    In response to DZAUTO

I drizzled a bit of lubricant over the gears and bearings before installing the center section into the housing and almost immediately, I noticed a leak at the pinion seal. The seal surface on the pinion yoke was pitted a bit and I tried to polish it down with fine sand paper, but there were still some pits remaining, so I guess there isn't a good seal there. Another pinion yoke I have is also pitted right at the seal area and I can't find any new replacement yokes. Any recommendations? Speedi Sleeve?

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
LtFrankDrebin 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5242
LtFrankDrebin
Loc: Coopersburg, PA
Reg: 01-25-01
07-19-10 10:46 AM - Post#1947711    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

For those of you dealing with a scored/pitted pinion yoke, SKF Speedi-Sleeve 99170 is the repair sleeve that fits to give a good seal surface. I just installed one on mine. NAPA has them for $40, but I see you can get them from Amazon.com for around $25.

'56 210 Townsman wagon 6cyl/3spd OD | '58 Impala Sierra Gold 348


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
07-19-10 05:04 PM - Post#1947893    
    In response to LtFrankDrebin

  • WSSmolik Said:
For those of you dealing with a scored/pitted pinion yoke, SKF Speedi-Sleeve 99170 is the repair sleeve that fits to give a good seal surface. I just installed one on mine. NAPA has them for $40, but I see you can get them from Amazon.com for around $25.



Well, no point in me responding------------you just answered your own question. Those are USUALLY an excellent fix, PLUS, you retain your yoke!



 
6-bangertim 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2218

Age: 61
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
07-19-10 09:36 PM - Post#1948049    
    In response to DZAUTO

Tom, would you be so kind to give us the bearing P/N's? Do you have a perference in brands?

What is your first choice for axle bearings? Replaced both sides almost 2 years ago - pass. side is leaking worse than the old one on that side (bigger mess on the inside of the tire)! Used CR brand. Did I get a bad bearing or could the housing be bent a little?

MANY THANKS for ALL the juicy info you take the time to include in your posts - some of the best reading here. I've yet to see anyone match your knowledge here on CT on GM drive-lines.

Take Care, Tim

Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
07-20-10 04:03 PM - Post#1948404    
    In response to 6-bangertim

Any more on axle bearings, it's a crap shoot, plain and simple. Timken, BCA, etc, etc, are just as likely to be made in USA or Japan. But, anymore, I'm not worried about bearings from Japan (when's the last time you saw a bearing on a Honda, Toyota, etc, fail?). Also, if a bearing comes from China, it may be the only choice for the future. Also, the installation process of pressing a bearing onto a 55-64 axle might also have some effect on the seal leaking.

Timken was always known as a quality bearing, but if you buy one from one of the aftermarket Chevy sources, all you can do is ask the sales person on the phone to go and look at the bearing to see where it was made---------------and they may or may not go check.
If you go to your local parts store (NAPA, O'Reilly, Autozone, etc), ask them to let you check the bearing yourself.



 
Bigg Redd 
Senior Member
Posts: 369
Bigg Redd
Loc: Heart Of Dixie
Reg: 11-12-03
08-25-10 02:30 PM - Post#1966768    
    In response to DZAUTO

I'm in the process converting to an Eaton unit and I see on the card that comes with the unit it still calls for the LM-102949 & LM-102911. I have ordered stock bearings anyway to install according to your instructions. This is a really cool upgrade, good information.

2007 NBS Silverado Z-71 6.o Vortec Max


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
08-25-10 05:49 PM - Post#1966847    
    In response to Bigg Redd

  • Bigg Redd Said:
I'm in the process converting to an Eaton unit and I see on the card that comes with the unit it still calls for the LM-102949 & LM-102911. I have ordered stock bearings anyway to install according to your instructions. This is a really cool upgrade, good information.



I DO NOT HAVE A CLUE why they continue to call out the wrong bearings?!?!?!?!?!?!?



 
Bigg Redd 
Senior Member
Posts: 369
Bigg Redd
Loc: Heart Of Dixie
Reg: 11-12-03
08-27-10 04:51 PM - Post#1967705    
    In response to DZAUTO

I called and spoke to Ron and he did say that the stock bearing should be used for the 55 - 64 Eaton models and that the bearings he describes on his card are for 99 model years and up.

2007 NBS Silverado Z-71 6.o Vortec Max


 
hawk49 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 20

Loc: Owasco Lake, NY
Reg: 10-13-09
11-01-10 06:45 PM - Post#1998345    
    In response to DZAUTO

Hi Tom,
Did I read the manual correctly stating the ring gear bolt torque setting should be 40-60 Ft.lbs.?
I'm putting in a new 3.08 ring and pinion and a new Eaton posi in my non posi '63 rearend.
Thanks,
Rick



 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8566

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
11-01-10 07:25 PM - Post#1998367    
    In response to hawk49

Rick,
Correct.
And, since these are a 3/8 bolt, ABOUT 45lbs torque is about right.
For ring gear bolts, I "FEEL" the torque (with MANY years of experience, you can feel when a bolt is fully tight). I often check the torque, and it is always right on 45lbs.
I have NEVER torqued ring bolts 55 or 60, but maybe close to 50.



 

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