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 Page 4 of 5 « First<2345
Username Post: building a 383, things to think about        (Topic#131229)
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
05-28-08 10:58 AM - Post#1442999    
    In response to 89RStroker

the quality of materials and heat treating of those parts along with the tollerances and care & inspection durring the machine work varies a great deal between manufacturers. a CALLIES,EAGLE,CROWER OR LUNATI CRANK is certainly not in the same class as a chinese knock off you get on ebay for 1/4 the price.
OLIVER,CALLIES,CROWER,LUN ATI RODS and ARP L19 rod bolts are not the same as the parts that you get off EBAY or most discount suppliers EITHER.
cast cranks should in my opinion be limited to about 4000 feet per minute in piston speed , so with your 3.75" stroke thats 6400 rpm MAX, for a cast crank and forged cranks at 4500 fpm , or 7200rpm for light weight forged components and that assumes good both rods/rod bolts and a ballanced rotating assembly, with very good quality components.(hopefully sellected both for strength and light weight)
now Im certainly not saying that at 6500rpm the cast cranks going to self destruct, but if you spin the engine above 4000fpm in piston speed your stress level WILL eventually cause PROBLEMS, and that also assumes your valve train will remain under total control at those rpm levels and your only OCCASIONALLY reaching that level of stress,just before shifting gears, not intending to run the engine constantly at those rpms, can you buzz the $%^%^& out of a cast crank and get away with it, PROBABLY,at least for awhile, but there WILL come a time when the stress levels and quality of the parts and care durring the assembly start to make a differance.
your rods, rod bolts and valve control issues, or getting into detonation, are usually the weak link

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 05-28-08 11:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 




89RStroker 
Contributor
Posts: 367
89RStroker
Reg: 01-07-08
05-28-08 08:41 PM - Post#1443496    
    In response to grumpyvette

Sweet, i think it will be probably spinning to 6500 at max power so 7000 might never happen. One thing is for sure, when it hits 4000 it really starts waking up. I am going to set the limiter to 6600 and leave it there till i feel froggy. I wish i bought a forged crank but hell, i am happy with it. The rods are forged scat good for 650-700 HP and the pistons are forged as well, the crank is my weak link. I even have the Clevite 77 H bearings.


Thanks once again Grumpy.

6.0 LQ4, 242/248 @.050, .610/.615 lift, 110 LSA, Holley 750 Carb, Victor Jr intake, Stainless works headers, T56 6 speed trans, Moser 12 bolt 4.30 gears, manual steering and no AC.

Best to date, 7.1@97 MPH, 1.5 60 foot, stock junkyard 6.0 carb/cam


Edited by 89RStroker on 05-28-08 08:41 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
kevindtimm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1945
kevindtimm
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
Reg: 11-09-04
07-11-08 11:49 AM - Post#1475470    
    In response to 89RStroker

I'm looking for a second opinion here, re: balancing the assembly.

In a nutshell, I'm interested in a torque machine, not an rpm monster. What I seem to be gleaning is that the balancing is not necessary if I'm going to keep my RPM below about 5500rpm. Since I've never run over 5K on this truck so far, I'm guessing I'll probably never get there (I'm getting slower, not faster).

I guess the question is (since I already have a crank ready to go):

Can I get the 5.7 rods and the correct pin height pistons, a complete gasket/ring/bearing kit, clearance the block and utilize the 400 damper/flywheel to create an engine that will live happily below that RPM threshold?

2008 Equinox LS - My only Chevy right now


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
07-11-08 12:16 PM - Post#1475495    
    In response to kevindtimm

should you get the assembly ballanced?

------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- -----

Ok youve decided to buy/build a 383 from parts youve collected from that 350 in your car, youve got the parts an your iching to start assembly....should you take the time to ballance the parts or just slap it together....
ballancing/clearancing the rotating assembly will effectively reduce the stress on the components, the amount that stress will be reduced depends on how far off the components are from the orriginals the crank,damper and flexplate or flywheel were designed for , now I think ballancing the new assemblys a NO BRAINER as its usually under $200 and even if it reduced the stress only 15% its a big improvement, but the truth here is that without reballancing youve more than likely got zero idea how far off the new parts are and you might be assembling a combo that will shake itself to pieces in 10K......Id suggesst spending the $200 and getting it done correctly.

yeah! we all know guys that skip the ballance work and run engines, we all also know guys that have constant freak engine and drive train breakage and tunning, and oil control issues/ problems, with thier cars and can,t seem to locate the source.
you can spend $150-200 in most cases up front to prevent problems or a take a chance on spending a good deal more once they occure, your choice!
and Id figgure the chances ar about like playing russian roulette with two or three cylinders loaded in your revolver

BTW
http://racingarticles.com/files/general-damper- art...

http://victorylibrary.com/tech/bal-c.htm



IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 07-11-08 01:13 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
kevindtimm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1945
kevindtimm
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
Reg: 11-09-04
07-11-08 12:56 PM - Post#1475517    
    In response to grumpyvette

$200 for sure isn't much (and so is what I WILL do).

Let me add one more question to this then, if I balance this assembly, does that then mean that I can run with a standrard 350 balancer and flywheel or do I still have to continue to use the 400 specific parts?

2008 Equinox LS - My only Chevy right now


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
07-11-08 01:19 PM - Post#1475535    
    In response to kevindtimm

that depends on several factors, if the cranks designed for an EXTERNALLY ballanced flexplate and damper like a 400 has ,you CAN get it RE-ballanced for a INTERNALLY ballanced flexplate and damper like a 350, so that you can use internally ballanced components like a 350 damper and flywheel/flexplate... but the cost is frequently higher than just buying a new crank of the correct design, generally your stuck using the type of ballance the cranks originally designed for due to counter weight size, placement and cost issues, as welding in extra mallory metal weights gets expensive fast, and forged 3.75" SBC internally ballanced cranks are not all that expensive, theres also the option of installing counter weights on the 350 components to use with the 400 crank, if you choose to go that route


http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 07-11-08 02:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
kevindtimm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1945
kevindtimm
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
Reg: 11-09-04
07-11-08 01:34 PM - Post#1475545    
    In response to grumpyvette

Interesting.

I have recv'd just the opposite information from someone else (on another board)

Very interesting.


2008 Equinox LS - My only Chevy right now


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
07-11-08 01:48 PM - Post#1475569    
    In response to kevindtimm

theres a DIFFERANCE between CAN, you physically do something and CAN you do it at a reasonable cost!
I know of no-one that will take the time and effort and go thru the expense to modify a 400 crank to run 350 components because an INTERNALLY ballanced 3.75" stroke crank thats designed to run those 350 components is fairly cheap and easily obtainable, but a decent shop can weld up counter weights and add enough mallory metal to reballance almost any crank to internally ballance it

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


 
kevindtimm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1945
kevindtimm
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
Reg: 11-09-04
07-11-08 09:09 PM - Post#1475897    
    In response to grumpyvette

I see that's what the other person on the other board was talking about.

But, as you said, it's NO way going to be cost effective.

Thanks, Thanks and more thanks!

2008 Equinox LS - My only Chevy right now


 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
07-24-08 11:53 AM - Post#1484694    
    In response to 89RStroker

  • 89RStroker Said:
So if i hit 6800 it might be ok?



I'm told a Ram Steel flywheel PN 1523 will do a decent job on an external balance 383. Any comments?


Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 
Jim.Biron 
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Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
07-25-08 06:16 AM - Post#1485157    
    In response to grumpyvette

  • grumpyvette Said:
that depends on several factors, if the cranks designed for an EXTERNALLY ballanced flexplate and damper like a 400 has ,you CAN get it RE-ballanced for a INTERNALLY ballanced flexplate and damper like a 350, so that you can use internally ballanced components like a 350 damper and flywheel/flexplate... but the cost is frequently higher than just buying a new crank of the correct design, generally your stuck using the type of ballance the cranks originally designed for due to counter weight size, placement and cost issues, as welding in extra mallory metal weights gets expensive fast, and forged 3.75" SBC internally ballanced cranks are not all that expensive, theres also the option of installing counter weights on the 350 components to use with the 400 crank, if you choose to go that route


http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/




BTW- How do you tell the difference between a GM cast externally balanced 400(383) flywheel (not flexplate) and a 454 flywheel? Did they make a 11" 400 flwheel?

Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
07-25-08 06:44 AM - Post#1485168    
    In response to Jim.Biron

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VI...

yes there ARE factory cast 14" flywheels for the 400 engine that fit 11" clutches, as to the visual differance to the 454 flywheel, Im sorry, I can,t think of anything thats ALWAYS 100% true to, visually I.D. them, as theres some interchangeability between the sbc and BBC flywheels plus I generally give factory cast flywheels away, and use a REPLACEMENT,SFI-approved.
AFTERMARKET FORGED HAYS or WEBER, ZOOM,ETC and a lakewood scatter shield as Ive seen what happends when stock cast flywheels come appart and won,t generally use them

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 07-25-08 07:07 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
07-28-08 04:36 AM - Post#1486814    
    In response to grumpyvette

  • grumpyvette Said:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VI...

yes there ARE factory cast 14" flywheels for the 400 engine that fit 11" clutches, as to the visual differance to the 454 flywheel, Im sorry, I can,t think of anything thats ALWAYS 100% true to, visually I.D. them, as theres some interchangeability between the sbc and BBC flywheels plus I generally give factory cast flywheels away, and use a REPLACEMENT,SFI-approved.
AFTERMARKET FORGED HAYS or WEBER, ZOOM,ETC and a lakewood scatter shield as Ive seen what happends when stock cast flywheels come appart and won,t generally use them



Thanks for the info!
My guess is that these 14" wheels are not to common(I also see they are discontinued) so I have to wonder if what I have now is really the right one or not (It did have a balance weight on it).
I think A new steel wheel is in the works anyway as I plan on changing my clutch fork.
Thanks again for the info.


Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 
442mike 
Lurker
Posts: 4

Reg: 08-04-08
08-05-08 12:20 AM - Post#1492525    
    In response to Jim.Biron

Grumpy:

I'm new on here and have been reading some of this thread, it's full of good info. Could you give me some advice about a 383 I'm building, here's the link to the thread, thanks:

https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fi...



 
sean j 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 35

Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Reg: 05-20-08
08-11-08 03:22 AM - Post#1496671    
    In response to 442mike

after browsing through this thread for the last few months i have decided to replace my 305 with a 383 and i just bought a block yesterday.
what i have is a 2 bolt 010 block 40thou over.
what i want is streetability and 450hp. by streetability, i mean i want decent low end and mid range power and i don't want much more than a 2500rpm stall. i can live with a worked motor on the street, i just dont want to have to warm it up for 5 minutes before i can move it each time i want to go to the shops. its goin into a 66 impala with a 10 bolt and std gears for a 327 and PG(3.08?) and 235/60/15 tyres. budget wants a flat tappet cam, but if a roller is so much better than i will go that route.
My thoughts so far:
i am thinking a high lift (.500)cam without a lot of duration (290)? max power at 6500 or less
Looking at racer pro alloy heads(reputable australian brand)with a 200cc inlet port
750 holley vac sec.
arp studs on bottom end.

my questions
are 200cc inlet ports too big for my application?
should i use RPM air gap or Torker2?
what compression ratio for australian 98 octane(=US 94~95 octane)?
what will produce better power for my requirements, a hydrolic roller or a solid flat tappet

look forward to some opinions
cheers
sean



 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-11-08 08:09 AM - Post#1496804    
    In response to sean j

before jumping into building your 383 (OR ANY ENGINE PROJECT) you should strongly think about printing out a very detailed parts list and find out the TRUE cost of all the machine work at the local machine shops, and parts youll want, DON,T list just the major components, list the true cost of all the bearings, gaskets, oil pans,pushrods, cam,lifters,rods,crank,va lve covers, etc.
then compare that to a crate engine cost, in some cases youll find its actually cheaper and faster to buy a crate engine that might even have a warranty

IF you do want to build the combo yourself I think the best advice I can give is spend a good deal on the some of the best cylinder heads you can get on your budget, go for the largest displacement you can,easily afford ,don,t forget a good high capacity baffled oil pan, and that a flat tappet solid lifter cam and some decent roller rockers tend to give you good value cost vs performance and if sellected correctly more rpm on the upper band than a hydrolic roller cam, and check clearances carefully,and if your oil/lube, and cooling system is not top notch, it doesn,t make much differance what power you make the engine won,t last long under high stress.


http://www.ohiocrank.com/chev_sb_shortb.html

http://www.dougherbert.com/383chevybudgetstroker -p...

http://www.dougherbert.com/383chevysbstrokerhigh ou...

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VI...

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VI...

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 08-11-08 08:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sean j 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 35

Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Reg: 05-20-08
08-11-08 05:20 PM - Post#1497182    
    In response to grumpyvette

have looked into crate engines grumpyvette, but i am located down in brisbane, australia. the only available crate engines are GM performance and they are about $1000 more expensive than over in the US. shipping of crate motors to australia is pretty expensive too. plus i really want to build my own motor.

I understand there are many ancillary costs, but i am trying to settle on a well matched heads/cam/compression combination.

thanks for the input so far



 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
08-25-08 05:40 AM - Post#1507084    
    In response to sean j

Another camshaft to use question.
Anyone have any experience with an Edelbrock 22015 roller cam kit?
I'm running a 383 with performer rpm heads and an airgap 2x4 edelbrock carb setup.

Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-25-08 06:05 AM - Post#1507100    
    In response to Jim.Biron

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/22015 /10002/-1...

SB-Chevy 283-400 Hydraulic Roller Camshaft Kit

Duration Advertised 296° Intake/300° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' 234° Intake/238° Exhaust
Lift @ Valve .539'' Intake/.548'' Exhaust
Lift @ Cam .359'' Intake/.365'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle 112°
Intake Centerline 107°
Intake Timing @ .050" Open 10° BTDC
Close 44° ABDC
Exhaust Timing @ .050" Open 56° BBDC
Close 2° ATDC



IVE used similar cam designs (durration/lift/)in the past with excellent results and $709 for the cam, roller lifters and pushrods is a good value
the only thing that makes me hesitate is the quality of edelbrocks cam cores. most IVE SEEN are not billet but cast cores which are less durable and on a 383 you want a small base circle cam......one reason I usually suggest this cam in similar combos

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browsePart...

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crane/270/119661/10 002/-1#

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/ser vlet/Keyw...

Grind Number: HR-230/359-2S-12.90 IG
Operating Range: 3000-6500 RPM
Duration Advertised: 292° Intake / 300° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift: 230° Intake / 238° Exhaust
Valve Lift w/1.5 Rockers: .539'' Intake / .558'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
Max Lift Angle: 107° ATDC Intake / 117° BTDC Exhaust
Open/Close @.050'' Cam Lift: Intake - 8° BTDC (opens) / 42° ABDC (closes)
Exhaust - 56° BBDC (opens) / 2° ATDC (closes)


with either cam youll want a 3000rpm stall converter , about 10.5:1 cpr and a 3.73-4.11:1 rear gear to maximize the preformance and a low restriction exhaust, headers and a high flow intake

IM currently running the crane 119661 cam in MY 383 and Ive tested over a dozen cams in that engine, so if its a street/strip combo ID suggest going that route, SMALL BASE CIRCLE AND BILLET CORE.....yeah! YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY,FOR and DURABILITY FOR PARTS TENDS TO COST MORE

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 08-25-08 06:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-25-08 08:05 AM - Post#1507153    
    In response to grumpyvette

BIGGER is NOT always BETTER, and since both the header primairy dia. and length and the collectors , which have a huge effect on the resulting scavaging can,t be changed as we change engine rpms, we need to maximize the cylinder scavaging charicteristics so as to maximize the cylinder filling and extend the rpm band of the torque curve but once your have the collectors and headers primairy designed to maximixe the scavaging in your chosen and intended rpm range and run the collectors to a (X) to induce both increased scavaging and lower restriction to flow theres not much that a larger exhaust past that point can do badly but increase the noise levels while it should be rather obvious that a smaller than ideal exhaust will hurt the upper rpm band as it tends to be a restriction
yes if you have a smaller exhaust dia. it tends to act like an extended collector and increase low rpm torque at the cost OF being A restriction ONCE THE RPMS BUILD PAST A CERTAIN POINT.having both collectors empty into an (X) pipe EFFECTIVELY instantly doubles the cross sectional area of the exhaust pulse and significantly reduces the return reflected pressure wave, almost making the collectors act as if its running without any restiction compared to a true dual exhaust IF the exhaust pipes are large enough to provide a very low restriction at that point



as I POINTED OUT ABOVE...
theres plenty of fluid dynamics math and research out there to show that the distances the exhaust travels between exhaust pulses and the diam. and length are easily calculated, and past that length the second previous pulse has little effect compared to the current and previous pulse energy and reflective wave
and lets not forget the cam timing displacement and intake port all effect the cylinder scavaging the headers can effectively provide also

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...ngth/pipe.h...

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/header-tech-c.htm

http://www.headerdesign.com/

http://www.pontiacracing.net/js_header_length1.htm

http://www.slowgt.com/Calc2.htm#Header



LETS ASSUME I WANT MY 383 TO MAKE MAX POWER IN THE 5000RPM-6300RPM BAND (mostly so I can run street gears and pump high test gas and a low maintinance hydrolic roller cam, and IM willing to sacrifice a good deal of street driveability to maximize my corvettes track potential)

useing the above calculators we quickly find I should have about a 3 sq inch intake port cross sectional area, the exhaust should be about 39" long in the primairy 1.825 dia,and about 18" -20" long in the collector, about 3"-3.5" dia.
a matching compression of about 10.5:1-11:1 and a cam in the 230-235 durration range at .050 lift, heads that have the same 3 sq inch port and flow about 280cfm this will tend to maximize the power at THAT rpm band, and ideally a 3.90:1-4.11:1 rear gear ratio and a 3000rpm-3500rpm stall converter
but that above will NOT work nearly as well as a smaller and less radical combo in the 1500rpm-4500rpm most cars spend 90% of thier time in
its all a compromise and most people don,t realize how miserable that combo will make the daily driven car that rarely get above 4500rpm, where a smaller and longer exhaust would scavage more effectively but give up some of the potential for max power when the cars raced



IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 08-25-08 08:34 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
08-25-08 09:35 AM - Post#1507210    
    In response to grumpyvette

  • grumpyvette Said:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/22015 /10002/-1...

SB-Chevy 283-400 Hydraulic Roller Camshaft Kit

Duration Advertised 296° Intake/300° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' 234° Intake/238° Exhaust
Lift @ Valve .539'' Intake/.548'' Exhaust
Lift @ Cam .359'' Intake/.365'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle 112°
Intake Centerline 107°
Intake Timing @ .050" Open 10° BTDC
Close 44° ABDC
Exhaust Timing @ .050" Open 56° BBDC
Close 2° ATDC



IVE used similar cam designs (durration/lift/)in the past with excellent results and $709 for the cam, roller lifters and pushrods is a good value
the only thing that makes me hesitate is the quality of edelbrocks cam cores. most IVE SEEN are not billet but cast cores which are less durable and on a 383 you want a small base circle cam......one reason I usually suggest this cam in similar combos

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browsePart...

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crane/270/119661/10 002/-1#

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/ser vlet/Keyw...

Grind Number: HR-230/359-2S-12.90 IG
Operating Range: 3000-6500 RPM
Duration Advertised: 292° Intake / 300° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift: 230° Intake / 238° Exhaust
Valve Lift w/1.5 Rockers: .539'' Intake / .558'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
Max Lift Angle: 107° ATDC Intake / 117° BTDC Exhaust
Open/Close @.050'' Cam Lift: Intake - 8° BTDC (opens) / 42° ABDC (closes)
Exhaust - 56° BBDC (opens) / 2° ATDC (closes)


with either cam youll want a 3000rpm stall converter , about 10.5:1 cpr and a 3.73-4.11:1 rear gear to maximize the preformance and a low restriction exhaust, headers and a high flow intake

IM currently running the crane 119661 cam in MY 383 and Ive tested over a dozen cams in that engine, so if its a street/strip combo ID suggest going that route, SMALL BASE CIRCLE AND BILLET CORE.....yeah! YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY,FOR and DURABILITY FOR PARTS TENDS TO COST MORE



The operating range seems a bit high. Am I missing something or am I just looking at too much cam for a limited street motor (read as non daily driver) not a track star.

Oh yeah... this is a M-20 (wide ratio) trans and 3.73 rear gear with 275-60-15 tires in my 66 Belair.
Cruising for m seems to be at the 2500 rpm level.


Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-25-08 10:49 AM - Post#1507264    
    In response to Jim.Biron

your 100% correct if you were looking to cruise at 2500rpm , the cams above will be a P.I.T.A. on a car designed mostly for mid rpm cruiseing, you could get good performance from them but the street manors in traffic will be less than ideal....certainly manageable but not exactly smooth

youll be far better off with something similar to these, if street manors and low to mid rpm cruising are a higher priorty, but have a LONG talk with the manufacturer of your choice about your combo and expectations before sellecting your cam and matching your combo gearing and compression, head lift restrictions and flow charicteristics

http://www.tpis.com/index.php?module=catalog_page&...

ZZ-9 HydraulicRoller:
Intake Exhaust This is an emission legal cam which makes
Advertised Duration 282/ 287 over 400HP with our CNC"D LT heads and
Duration at .050 212 /226 F-car headers. Great with an auto or six
Gross Lift .483/.520 speed.
Lobe Separation 112


http://www.crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml

http://www.crower.com/misc/cam_spec/cam_fin der.php...

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts& ;lvl...

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 08-25-08 10:55 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-25-08 12:25 PM - Post#1507354    
    In response to grumpyvette


bjhines posted these and thier good examples
looking thru an (X) pipe



mocking it up




IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-25-08 02:43 PM - Post#1507462    
    In response to grumpyvette

GOSFAST posted this great photo to illustrate the differance between rod designs



http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/index.htm

rods designed like the 3 SERIES generally won,t work with stroker cranks while the 2 series usually will

the connecting rods you sellect make a huge differance in the rod to cam lobe clearance, even a small base cam won,t clear some designs, it should be obvious that the connecting rod with the thru bolt has a great deal less cam lobe clearance potentially than the cap screw design next to it., and the cap screw rod probably clears the blocks oil pan rail area easier also

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/attachm...

don,t get crazy

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 08-26-08 07:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
08-27-08 06:26 AM - Post#1508744    
    In response to grumpyvette

Im running that crane 119661 cam retarded 4 degrees BTW but detonation has not been a problem, remember that the coolant temp, air temps the engine sees, QUENCH distance, type of head gasket and its construction ,ignition advance,plug heat range,piston to bore clearance, exhaust valve seat width, and oil temp and pollishing your combustion chamber and piston domes, and your AIR/FUEL RATIO , and the effective DYNAMIC compression ratio, have a noticable effect on detonation


and if you do see detonation, theres octane boosters like TOULUENE

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octaneb ooster...

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/octane_b.html

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 08-27-08 06:28 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
09-30-08 07:56 AM - Post#1532235    
    In response to grumpyvette

Looks like I just dropped my last post...
Trying again. :-)

Grumpy,
I'm wondering if you can make a recommendation for me for my 383. I've included what I have now below. I'm going to be checking the cam lobes this weekend and if one is bad its replacement time.
I'd like a cam that would allow me to run up to 6200-6500.
I'd like a cam with a "rough" idle. :-)
I can change the rockers to 1.5 or 1.52s.
I'd like a recommendation of a flat tappet and a roller. I have not decided if I want to go the extra $$$ for the roller parts. (the block is a 80-85 casting)
Lastly.... I've seen a lot of 'bad' cams go belly up over the last couple of years (10 cams in 2 years at the shop) What are the things I should ask the manuf before I put my money down?
I have posted before but time does change things.

Also do you see anything below that you would question???

Below is what I have now...

383 SBC
• 440 hp @ 5800 RPM 448 ft. lbs torque 5100 RPM
• All new internals professionally
• Prepared block
Machine Work
• Select Hi Tin block 4 bolt main machined 030 040 060 -
• align bore and or check for run out.full race clearancing
• Mag Check-preasure check ...
• Hot Tank - Jet Wash ....
• Bore Torque Plate Hone ... Torque Plate Gives True Finish
• Clearance block - -casting flash only..
• shotpeen rods...
• Dynamic balance assembly..
• File fit rings - blue print clearance...
• press - pistons to rods...
• Install cam bearings - freeze plugs...
• Port blue print cylinder heads...

All new Performance Internal Parts
• Speed pro hyperutectic pistons 10.3 to 1 piston set[ PUMP GAS OK 91 OCTANE
• EAGLE STEEL crank with superior wear sized and indexed.
• Childs & Albert - zz gapdura Moly File Fit Rings... [provides the ultimate in ring sealing making more power!!
• Durabond - cam bearings...
• gm pink forged steel rods
• ARP - wavelock - rod bolts...
• Clevite- -bearings tri metal 77 - rod and main...
• comp cams custom hi output cam lifter set ..
• Cloyes - true roller set...
• Comp - cams cam locks...
• comp cams xe chrome moly pushrods
• Dyna gear race - oil pump...
• Dyna gear - pickup...
• ARP - steel drive...
• After market - oil pan. baffeld 5 qt
• After market - timing cover...
• pioneer/arp - head bolts...
• ARP/ - rocker studs 3/8...
• Fel Pro blue - gasket sets...
- Power Making Featured Parts
• ALL NEW EDITION EDELBROCK HEADS WITH REVISED COMBUSTION CHAMBERS CNC PORTS POWER MAKING FEATURES!!. Bowls blended,full ...
o Features - - -severe duty 2.02/1.60 valves plus ... 1.25 springs 7 degree super locks comp cam parts..good porting..3/8studs guide plates.gasket match p.c seals.chrome moly retainers[with mild port work these heads are better than ANY OUT BOX HEADS YOU COULD PUT ON FROM SAME MANUFACTURE
• hi perfromance roller rockers-1.6 ratio...
• comp cams custom series- -muscle car cam Features - 110 center line 488 - 490 lift corrected 1.6 ratio = 520/522 lift. 226/228 dur @ 050 awesome power range 2000 stall.


Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


Edited by Jim.Biron on 09-30-08 07:57 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
09-30-08 10:22 AM - Post#1532302    
    In response to Jim.Biron

whats your transmission (obviously its an auto trans but which one?) and whats your rear gear ratio and tire dia. or height? which edelbrock head part number?? what intake manifold?,what headers size? carb size?,ETC.

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 09-30-08 10:23 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
09-30-08 10:46 AM - Post#1532320    
    In response to grumpyvette

  • grumpyvette Said:
whats your transmission (obviously its an auto trans but which one?) and whats your rear gear ratio and tire dia. or height? which edelbrock head part number?? what intake manifold?,what headers size? carb size?,ETC.



Sorry no auto any longer... its an M20 (wide ratio) 3.73 rear with a 28" tire (275-60-15)
Headers are Edelbrock performer RPM 64 CC Straight plugs (I believe part#60899)
The intake is now a dual 4bbl Edelbrock performer rpm air gap (part# 20254)
Headers I'm not sure about. The primary seems to be 1 5/8 with a 3" collector. I've had them for some time. I couldn't say about the length.
Thanks for any help.
Jim



Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17178
grumpyvette
Age: 70
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
09-30-08 02:17 PM - Post#1532465    
    In response to Jim.Biron

well, it should be rather obvious that the engines slightly under cammed too maximize the potential,but you don,t want to go quite as far as that max potential due to its used on the street and having a combo with decent engine charicteristics in traffic is a big plus here, so swapping too a small solid flat tappet cam to allow the engine to easily spin up to 6400rpm and keep the cost low would be my suggestion
heres what ID SUGGEST you run with the 1.6:1 ratio rockers


read thru this
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0807_ fl...


http://www.crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml (PG 141)

the cool face lifters and this cam

http://www.crower.com/misc/cam_spec/cam_fin der.php...

preventing cam & lifter break-in failures

OPTIONS

it should be rather obvious that theres options, cam failures are usually the result of incorrect CLEARANCES or too much SPRING PRESSURE or LACK of ADEQUATE LUBRICATION,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE, and decent quality oil, adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS

READ
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

(1) get a decent ROLLER CAM, add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


(2) use a SOLID lifter flat tappet cam with lifters with the lube feed holes,add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE, and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


http://www.competitionproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?nu...

(3) mod the lifter bores for more oil flow,add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


http://www.compperformancegroupstore s.com/store/me...


(4)USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE

[url]http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts& lvl=2&prt=15[/url],
add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


(5) thinking things thru and verifying clearances and spring pressures, and having a well thought thru lube system will significantly lower your chances of having problems,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS
.......I have not seen a cam fail in years UNLESS the guy installing it failed to follow those tips


anyone see a PATTERN?

you might want to read thru this AGAIN

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=article&id= 2]ht...

FROM MORTEC
If you are building a SMALL or BIG block Chevy with a flat tappet cam, (solid or hydraulic lifters) be careful during the initial engine break in. It is very easy to lose a cam lobe and lifter during initial break in. This is especially true with a higher than stock lift cam and higher pressure valve springs. The increased pushrod angles found on the BBC and poor preparation can make cam lobe failure after initial fireup a distinct possibility. You can help prevent this cam lobe failure by making sure the engine is prelubed prior to intial fireup. Use a good high pressure lube on the cam lobes and lifter bottoms during assembly. If possible use a lighter pressure stock valve spring (or if using a valve spring with multiple springs, take out some of the inner springs) to intially run the engine. Then switch to the heavier pressure springs after break in. When the engine is first fired up, keep the engine rpms at 2,500 or above, don't let the engine idle for 20 minutes or longer. This keeps lots of oil splashing up on the cam lobes. Make sure the engine can be run for this time period by having enough fuel available, ignition timing set correctly, coolant available for the motor, valve lash set correctly, etc. The idea is not to crank the motor over excessively before it starts up for the first time. If your BBC flat tappet cam survives this initial break in period, it will be good to go for many miles. After the initial engine breakin, drain the oil and change the oil filter. Roller cams generally do not suffer these types of cam lobe failures during initial engine fireup.
if youve adjusted the valves correctly the lifter spins at all rpm levels,but that does NOT mean it wears EVENLY at all rpm levels due to several factors if you [color="orange"] look closely AT FLAT TAPPET CAMS youll see that the center of the cam lobe is NOT centered under the lifter and that the lifter surface is slightly angled , BOTH these factors force the lifter to spin in its bore as the lobe passes under the lifter slightly off center.

SOME of the reasons the higher rpm durring the break in phase is important is that

(1) the faster RPMs the better chances the lobe passes under the lifter floated on an oil film and the less time the oil film has to squeeze out between them

(2) the higher the RPM the greater the oil voluum and pressure the engine pumps and the more oil flow is available at the lobes

(3)the higher the rpm level the more oil is thrown from the rods onto the cam lobes

(4)the higher the rpm the greater the lifters weight and inertia tends to compensate for the springs pressure and lower the net pressure as the lifter passes over the cam lobes nose

(5) at higher rpm speed the better chance a small wedge of oil is trapped between the lifter base and lobe from the oil thrown from the lobes surface by centrifical force

(6) two differant metal surfaces scraping past each other at low speeds may tend to wear and GALL as the oil is sqeezed out but two differant hardness steel surfaces that impact each other at higher speeds covered with oil tend to work harden as they mate and will tend to be seperated by that oil

(7)as the lifter spins in its bore the contact point between the lobe and lifter base constantly changes and rotates with the lobe contact point not resisting its passage and the higher the rpms the faster the lifter rotates and the less time the lobe spends at any one point

BTW ADD E.O.S. to the oil and MOLY break-in lube to the cam
before starting the engine and prefill the filter and pre-prime the oil system before starting the engine.
I normally pour it in just before starting the engines cam break in,procedure. because I want to make sure that nothing in the oil/E.O.S. mix can settle out from sitting over a long period of time. now if your running a flat tappet cam you should have also used a moly cam lube on the lobes and be useing a mineral base oil for the break-in procedure, and youll need to do an oil and filter change after about the first 3-4 hours running time to remove that moly cam lube from the engine after its served its purpose of protecting the cams lobes and lifters at start up, aND AS THE LOBES/LIFTERS LAPPED IN. MOSTLY to prevent that moly grease and E.O.S from potentially partially clogging the filter after that mix cools down,but also because both those lubes might leave deposites in the combustion chamber ,over time that might aggravate detonation.
even G.M. suggests that E.O.S. is not a great long term oil suppliment, and that its main function is to add extra oil film strength durring new engine break in.

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepar...


don,t forget a few magnets in the oil pan goes a long way towards trapping unwanted metalic dust formed from the cam and rings lapping in durring break-in that might otherwise get imbedded in your bearings or cause other problems
heres the magnets I use in every engine
add a few magnets to the oil pan and drain back area in your engine, the trap and hold metalic dust that comes from wear and increase engine life span by preventing that crap embedding in the bearings

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetai...d=D66SH&...

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66...

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82...

these are even more tollerant of temp swings and retain strength at even higher engine oil temps plus they are smaller and easier to use

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


Edited by grumpyvette on 09-30-08 02:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Jim.Biron 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 2956
Jim.Biron
Age: 67
Loc: Monterey, TN
Reg: 04-10-08
10-01-08 04:18 AM - Post#1532854    
    In response to grumpyvette

Some really great info there Grumpy.
I've looked through most of it and I do have a question about the 00304 cam. The specs for it indicate 1.6 Intake and 1.5 Exhaust rockers. What will be the implication using my 1.6 rockers across the board?

I have to tell you that I really appreciate the time you took to get me this info. It's truely an amazing job!!

Jim
www.HudsonValleyCruise.com


 




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