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Username Post: Engine swap -bunch of questions        (Topic#106627)
Kentucky_John 
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Kentucky_John
Age: 49
Loc: Olive Hill,KY. USA
Reg: 07-10-01
07-12-05 01:31 PM - Post#738827    

I've been wrenching on cars for awhile now. This is the first time I've dealt with an enclosed drive line. I know alot of these questions could be answered by searching,but I need to keep it all in one spot.

The 216 in my 1951 Styleline gave up the ghost and I found a good 58 model 235 to drop back in.

1. So what all is involved getting it unbolted from the trans to pull it out with a hoist? Bellhousing bolts I mean.

2. What's the opinions on the water pump situation? The one on the 235 is brand new.

I'll start with these two and work my way from there. Thanks in advance for your patience with this dummy.

Don't sweat it! Flat out, get it!!!


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27764
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-12-05 05:09 PM - Post#738828    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Questions about this swap come up often enough that I'm thinking the moderator should put it on a sticky.

Anyway, transmission bolts. Take out the floor center panel and you can get to the top two bolts. The bottom two bolts thread into the transmission from inside the bellhousing. Take off the bellhousing bottom cover and you will be able to see the bolt heads. My personal preference is to pull the engine with the transmission still attached. I just think it's easier that way.

Water pump - at least 4 ways to go on this:

1. Easiest and cleanest fix is the special short conversion pump available from some of the aftermarket vendors. The only real drawback with this one is that if the water pump dies and you are a long way from home, you aren't going to find a replacement at the local parts store. If you only use the car around town, definitely consider this route.

2. You can get an adaptor plate that allows the early short water pump to be used on the later engines. Downside? You have to drill and tap the block to install the adaptor plate.

3. Keep the stock pump, but remove the fan blade and run a pusher fan in front of the radiator. Assuming you don't mind the non-stock appearance, you still have to deal with installing a temp sensor, relay and the associated wiring. Also, if you are keeping the electrical system on 6 volts you may have trouble finding a 6 volt fan.

4. Keep the stock pump and fan, but relocate the radiator forward enough to clear. Advantage: cheap, if you do it yourself. Disadvantage: work, if you do it yourself.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
rrausch 
"14th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13889
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-12-05 05:42 PM - Post#738829    
    In response to raycow

I bought a short-shaft water pump from Patricks, and then modified another one I had sitting around to match the new one. Now I have a spare short-shaft pump!

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27764
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-12-05 07:13 PM - Post#738830    
    In response to rrausch

I tried that once after I found out how the rebuilders did it. I am talking here about putting the early type pulley/hub assembly on the later pump and then cutting off the shaft. The converted pump worked fine, but the job needed a pretty hefty press and it was kinda tricky to avoid damaging anything.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
Bill K. 
Senior Member
Posts: 154

Loc: Upstate New York
Reg: 10-31-04
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-12-05 08:54 PM - Post#738831    
    In response to raycow

All it looks like they did to mine was set the radiator in with the flange edge just outside of the sides of the radiator support - it still bolts in, I swapped a bone stock pump to the block in the effort to see if the block was any good (long story) that came off a '55, and it all clears. Granted it's about an inch or so clearance, but nothing moves and it's not that much work. A little harder to get a socket on the bolts, but I did get them out to pull it so I could change said water pump. If you want to be able to change it without a radiator R&R then you'll need to push the pulley mount back.

I mentioned it to a buddy who picked up a '52 with a '57 motor a while back that is partly apart, that the clearance thing might be why. He didn't get what I was talking about... I don't think it's near as big a deal as people say.

The only thing I notice odd on mine is the generator pulley seems to have been welded back together inside the belt groove and it's mounted maybe 1/4" too far ahead, there is a slight bend in the belt now. But who knows what generator it is, the number on it wasn't in my Motors manual for any 55-61 GM car motor.



 
Kentucky_John 
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Kentucky_John
Age: 49
Loc: Olive Hill,KY. USA
Reg: 07-10-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-13-05 03:31 AM - Post#738832    
    In response to raycow

Quote:

Questions about this swap come up often enough that I'm thinking the moderator should put it on a sticky.

Anyway, transmission bolts. Take out the floor center panel and you can get to the top two bolts. The bottom two bolts thread into the transmission from inside the bellhousing. Take off the bellhousing bottom cover and you will be able to see the bolt heads. My personal preference is to pull the engine with the transmission still attached. I just think it's easier that way.

Ray




I'm trying to get around messing with the torque tube and transmisson. I know next to nothing about them and this winter I hope to convert over to an open driveline. I'm afraid that if I pull the transmisson now I'll end up starting the conversion now. I don't have the parts gathered up for it yet and I really want this car back on the road for the rest of the season. If this was an open driveline car I'd be done by now. Life is about constantly learning new things though.

Thanks much for the information so far guys.

Don't sweat it! Flat out, get it!!!


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27764
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-13-05 05:51 AM - Post#738833    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Kentucky, I thought you were wanting to remove the transmission while the engine was still in the car. If you are thinking about leaving it attached to the torque tube and rear mount when you pull the engine, forget about it right now. You run a very real chance of damaging the mount, the clutch disc, and possibly even the transmission itself. Additionally, you will never get it back together that way. Trust me on this.

There is no need for you to feel threatened by the torque tube. It is really not difficult at all to detach it from the transmission. I had no problems doing one at age 14 when my mechanical experience was limited to bicycles and lawnmower engines. Keith Hardy has been kind enough to put a complete 49-53 shop manual online at

http://chevy.tocmp.com/1949_53shop/index.htm

which describes the procedure in very thorough detail. If you run into an unexpected problem there are plenty of people here at CT, including me, who will be more than happy to walk you through it.

Once again, I cannot stress strongly enough that trying to separate the transmission from the engine and leaving it bolted up to the torque tube is a bad way to go.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
Kentucky_John 
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Kentucky_John
Age: 49
Loc: Olive Hill,KY. USA
Reg: 07-10-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-13-05 09:13 AM - Post#738834    
    In response to raycow

OK so I'm destined to pull the engine and trans as a unit. I still have a question. What makes this set up different from an open driveline transmission. Well besides the torque tube. I mean, I've pulled many engines after unbolting them from the transmisson.Without having any problems. What makes these different?

I wish I had all my parts gathered up. I'd go ahead and do the T-5 swap. Still haven't got the deal for the rearend worked out yet either. Dang it, I need a second old car to drive while this one is down.

Don't sweat it! Flat out, get it!!!


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27764
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-13-05 10:55 AM - Post#738835    
    In response to Kentucky_John

With an open driveline, it's easy enough to slide the transmission back out of the way. With the torque tube, you can't do that. Well actually you can, but it still means you have to separate the transmission from the torque tube first.

If you really want to, you can do that. I mean, unbolt the torque tube from the tranny and let the torque tube down, then unbolt the tranny from the bellhousing and slide it back till it clears. I think it's more work to do it that way though, so I normally wouldn't do it unless I had only very limited clearance for pulling the engine.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
Kentucky_John 
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Kentucky_John
Age: 49
Loc: Olive Hill,KY. USA
Reg: 07-10-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-13-05 04:57 PM - Post#738836    
    In response to raycow

Ok, I see what your saying now Ray. My main experience is with muscle cars, full size trucks or hot rods that are ground up builds. We always just slid the engine forward and then lifted it up and out of the engine bay, never moving the transmisson.

I guess I got more work cut out for me then I expected.

Don't sweat it! Flat out, get it!!!


 
mahalet 
Senior Member
Posts: 1023
mahalet
Age: 67
Loc: rio , brasil
Reg: 10-12-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-13-05 10:14 PM - Post#738837    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Profanity, or the amount exhaled while trying to align the bloody transmission with the engine coming back home, is the problem. Yes, I know its possible to do it. never said agreeable. Three days cursing and forcing with a big prybar. No, definitely get the box together with the engine. its not so much difficult. Buy a manual on ebay, or print the page from the Good Captain Hardy site, read them carefully and The Light will come.
The Reason for the tube is applying the said torque to the gearbox support, and not to the leaf springs. The General, in his infinite wisdom, choose the smallest, cheapest and weakest springs that would do the job then. if you want to open your driveline to the world, think also in installing better leaf springs,or they will flex horribly under torque trying to bend them, torque for which they were never meant to stand. this is a theme never discussed enough in these precious pages, and for that I invite the brothers to suggest the possible cheap solutions. in here we use Dodge Dart springs from the late sixties.
As I am beggining to plan better springs even if keeping the torque tube, Ill write my experience. It will also mean doing a better steering with 53 box and 49 gears, and a 53 gearbox with my new syncros from the 51 box.

Mahar
1951 Fleetline 2D, 261,3 spd, 3.55:1
1984 Chevrolet Caravan, made in Brasil
Iron Duke alcohol,5 sod, 122 hp


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27764
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-18-05 06:19 AM - Post#738838    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Wow! I just now noticed that this thread was put on a sticky. I wasn't really asking to have that done, just sort of thinking out loud, but thank you just the same, patgizz.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
djbrow 
Member
Posts: 37

Loc: Sherwood, OR USA
Reg: 06-11-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
09-21-05 05:03 PM - Post#738839    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Be aware that on the '58 the water pump is lower than on
the 216. The fan might hit the harmonic balancer if it has
the external crank flanges. I ended up having to grind
mine off. Also, with the fan lower, it will not pull air
through the top 1/3 of the radiator and the temperature
will rise when idling. I ran mine for years this way. You
can watch the temperature rise at every stop light. I
finally made a shroud and used helper fans to keep it
from rising. Details at
http://community.webshots.com/user/djbrow



 
Trucked_up 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4948

Loc: 315 er
Reg: 03-23-02
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
10-14-05 01:09 PM - Post#738840    
    In response to djbrow

Yup,the temp goes up at idle with the low pump on the 55 and up engines.I've done the adapter plate conversion 3 times using a 216 pump on a 235-261 on my trucks,no cars here,lol.The conversion cools much better at low speeds and in my case,it runs slightly cooler all the way around.You have to be confident enough to drill and tap 2 holes in the block,easy to do with the engine on a stand or no front clip on the vehicle.Pulling the radiator and doing the drilling is a lot tougher,but possible if you got some muscle.
Remember the 216 water pump spins about 1.4 times faster than the crank,the 55 and up 235-261 pump spins just slightly less than crank speed.Keep this in mind when juggling pumps and pulleys.
I use a large vise to press the pump parts on and off,ya know,a vise that can handle a 3 foot lenth of pipe on the handle.



 
lowrench 
Member
Posts: 79
lowrench
Age: 46
Loc: Seymour CT
Reg: 03-23-04
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
12-25-05 07:36 PM - Post#738841    
    In response to Trucked_up

I'd just like to add an option here for you guys wanting to use later 235's with the long water pump & pulley. Put your 58 water pump in a press & press the fan/pulley mount(Round part with 4 bolt holes) farther down the shaft & use a V8chev pulley. Saw the rest of the shat off when your done. The V8 pulley is shallower but the same DIAM. as the long 6cyl pulley. You may have to back & forth between the engine & press a few times to be sure the mount is pressed enough to get the pump pulley aligned with the crank pulley. This modification eleminates the need for a patricks pump, pump adaptors, or moving the radiator.

I've done this several times with no problems & the only cost (if any) is the V8 pump pulley.

Billy

I put the FUN in funerals.


 
Carolina Clive 
Member
Posts: 19

Loc: Brevard NC
Reg: 06-19-06
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
06-19-06 02:38 AM - Post#738842    
    In response to Kentucky_John

I have bought a Chevy school bus (later than '54) with an inline six which I hope to be able to put into my 54 Chevy 2-ton truck. One mechanic has estimated it to be around 1957. The engine is mounted in the front on two angled mounts rather than my single center one. The plate below the crank pulley is not drilled to accept the single mount bolts either. It is a Rogers Remanufactured engine that was run for about 8,000 miles before the bus was left to sit for the past eight years. (It has a blue R sticker on the left side near the front.) It is about an inch or so longer than the 54, but that seems to be accounted for by the fan pulley.

As best I can make out, the number on the boss to the rear of the distributor reads FI029K.

Cast on the block ahead of the distributor is 3837012 with GM beneath this.
Cast on the head is 386850 GM 3.

There is a resistor like the 12V drop to 6V type on the firewall. The voltage generating device is large and looks like the old generators rather than the newer alternators. The harness doesnt look altered.

I cant find this engine number in Keith Hardy's list. Was there not such a thing as a 261 ci, as Ive heard people mention? Did Rogers Remanufacturing replace the engine numbers with their own codes? I sure would love to know what it is and if you thought it could be mounted in my truck with the single front mounting by drilling holes for the single mount bolts.

Thanks for any help or direction to help you can give me.
-CC

P.S. I've never used a forum before and I've never swapped an engine. I pulled the engine and transmission out together, but the trans was significantly larger than the space between the floor and the crossmember and I had to cut out the floorboard and jack up the cab an inch to do so.

-CC



 
Deuce_Coupe 
Senior Member
Posts: 283
Deuce_Coupe
Loc: Mankato, MN
Reg: 09-18-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
06-27-06 02:08 PM - Post#738843    
    In response to Carolina Clive

CC, You lucked out. According to the casting numbers you have a 55-57 261!

32 5W Coupe
64 Chevelle Convert
53 Bel-Air 2dr sedan
87 Silverado K20
78 Silverado K20
86,87,89,90 Suburbans


 
Carolina Clive 
Member
Posts: 19

Loc: Brevard NC
Reg: 06-19-06
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-12-06 10:14 AM - Post#738844    
    In response to Deuce_Coupe

Thanks much. I need some more help now, though. The lower end of this 261 seems to be in decent shape. It will need new .060 oversize rings and possibly rod bearings (they look good), but according to the machine shop, the head is cracked in three places. I have another 261 ('54 first series) head and by the magnaflux it has one crack between the valves in one cylinder.

Question 1: Is it possible that I could live with a small crack in the head if it "pressure tests OK"?

Question 2: Can a 1956 235 head be used on a 1955 261 block? The machine shop guy seems to think so, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Thanks again. -CC



 
Deuce_Coupe 
Senior Member
Posts: 283
Deuce_Coupe
Loc: Mankato, MN
Reg: 09-18-01
Re: Engine swap -bunch of questions
07-12-06 04:45 PM - Post#738845    
    In response to Carolina Clive

I would avoid any cracked head. That 235 head is your best bet. That head will actually increase your compression a little. You will just need to drill a couple of small steam holes between the combustion chambers. take a look at your 261 head and you will see the holes that are missing on the 235 head. Simply use a 261 head gasket as a guide or template to drill the holes.

32 5W Coupe
64 Chevelle Convert
53 Bel-Air 2dr sedan
87 Silverado K20
78 Silverado K20
86,87,89,90 Suburbans


 
50 Kustom 
Member
Posts: 27

Reg: 11-01-06
02-01-07 12:50 AM - Post#1084998    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Hi John thanks for askin all the questions I was needing to ask .This is so much help . My problem is I have made a kustom sheet metal work grill everything's molded to the fenders , so not easy to remove . And so not a lot of room to pull the engine. But goin by what you guys say it would be easier than trying to split the engine and trans in the car .



 
old51sedan 
Contributor
Posts: 773
old51sedan
Age: 75
Loc: Michigan & Florida
Reg: 10-11-09
10-12-09 06:22 AM - Post#1786980    
    In response to Kentucky_John

John,
I also have a 51 styline that I just pulled the original motor so I could send the car off to the bodyman for repairs & paint. I pulled the motor only as The car will be loaded on and off the trailer several times before I get it back in the spring. I didn't want to torque tube dropping down & hitting on the trailer. I also didn't want to have to readjust my shifting lineage. I have a 54 235 powerglide engine with a 53 head to replace the 216. If you stay with a 53-54 powerglide engine you won't have the water pump problem, you will have most horsepower with hyd. lifter and a full flow oil pressure system. The 55 and up engine will fit, but has a few little instulation problems along the way. I did install a 54 powerglide reear end in this car earlier as the 411 grears that come with the 216 are way to low. Good luck, however you do it.

1951 styleline 2dr deluxe
Original 51 plate, Dealer Tag, Documents
58,000 original miles, second owner
1954 PG 235, rear axle, Power Steering
Fenton Headers With Smitys


 
Maddog Mitchell 
Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 71
Maddog Mitchell
Loc: West Haven, UT
Reg: 11-10-09
11-16-09 07:07 AM - Post#1806669    
    In response to old51sedan

I'm putting in a 55 235 in my 51 (see pic link) and cut the water pump shaft using a V8 pulley. I thought of changing out the two core radiator to a new three core in hopes that it would make up for the lower fan. What are your thoughts?

Thanks David

http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx205/MaddogMi t...


 
arnieg141 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 6355
arnieg141
Loc: nj
Reg: 10-06-08
11-16-09 03:02 PM - Post#1806927    
    In response to Maddog Mitchell

you can use shaft as is move radieter ahead to clear http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISA PI.dll?Vi...

GET ER DONE .. AS I GET OLDER I LIKE FAST CARS I CAN STILL DRIVE. AND VERY SLOW WOMEN I CAN CATCH while still able..arnie garrison


 
Maddog Mitchell 
Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 71
Maddog Mitchell
Loc: West Haven, UT
Reg: 11-10-09
11-16-09 06:00 PM - Post#1807050    
    In response to arnieg141

Sweet! That will keep her running cool!

Thanks

http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx205/MaddogMi t...


 
dpgalvan 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 7

Reg: 02-03-10
02-03-10 08:56 PM - Post#1856023    
    In response to Kentucky_John

Not that I have a ton of experience, but a buddy and I just did this exact swap on a 52 deluxe, and we found it a lot easier to pull the trans with the motor. We were also limited with space, but it was a pretty easy pull and we could change the clutch easy.



 
KaelFarmer 
Senior Member
Posts: 1014
KaelFarmer
Loc: Eau Claire, WI
Reg: 03-28-02
04-04-10 10:15 AM - Post#1892652    
    In response to dpgalvan

After looking through the stickies, I decided that I should post this here instead of as a separate topic. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be swapping the 216 in my 52 sedan with the 235 from my 55 in the near future. I'm assuming that I'll need to switch to a front motor mount arrangement rather than the stock 52 side mounts. Will I need to use the frame mounts from the 55 or will I need to use a completely different set? Also, while I'm at it what will I need to complete a T5 swap. I have 2 different 55 rearends available. One with 3.55 gears & one with 4.11s. Which one should I use? I wasn't planning on doing this swap, but now that I'm facing it I'd like to do it as efficiently as possible.

Thanks,
Kael



 
49Stovebolt 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 58

Loc: NE Florida
Reg: 11-27-12
12-27-12 05:44 PM - Post#2301578    
    In response to KaelFarmer

I would use the 3.55 to keep the rpm's lower. You'll have plenty of power.



 
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