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Username Post: 63 Impala SS 4 speed manual trans        (Topic#357351)
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-23-19 07:45 PM - Post#2771406    

I've been entrusted with the caretaking of my dads '63 Impala SS. 250hp/327, 4 speed manual.

Couple questions.

1. is there a way to decode the options based on the VIN? or is there info on a cowl tag? I think dad said the car had 3.55 rear gears with the posi, but I'd like to confirm with regards to any numbers besides counting the turns of the pinion vs tire revolution.

2. I also thought dad said the car had a M20 Muncie, but thought I read something recently that these cars had a T10? I haven't had a chance to jack it up to visually verify. Again, any way to identify by the VIN or cowl tag?

3. The shifter has always had a vague shift gate feel ever since I've known the car as a kid some 35 years ago. Don't know if there is some wear in the shifter, or if thats just the way the factory shifter was, even when new? If not, are there bushings that can be replaced to tighten the feel?

Dad bought a Hurst Competition plus shifter 25 years ago that I could install once I locate it, but I prefer the look of the OEM shifter handle and ball. From the pics I've seen of the stock shifter, it doesn't appear that the stock shift arm would bolt to the Hurst Shifter.

Thanks for any insight on these questions.



 


pvs409 
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2740
pvs409
Loc: Sergeant Bluff, Iowa
Reg: 01-10-05
07-23-19 08:58 PM - Post#2771412    
    In response to DOTracer

1. Absolutely no way with the VIN to tell what accessories came with your 63(the top of firewall passenger side cowl tag can be used to check what came with the car but it does not cover engine and transmission).
The only thing you can tell is the year(3 first number in VIN) and 1847 is a V-8 in 1963 (1747 is a 6 cylinder 1963 Hardtop. The 5 digit(actually a letter) is the GM plant were the 1963 was built, the last 6 numbers are the order of building the car starting at 100,000 at each plant.

2. GM changed 63's from T-10 Borg Warner 4 speeds to Muncie 4 speeds in the middle of the production year. Some here know about what month this occured in early 1963). Perhaps the partial serial number of your 63 is stamped on the 4 speed case (others here will know). There is no other info that tells you about the transmission other than what "all" factory 4 speed cars came with. These items are easy to review. I am not listing them on this forum -since persons like to clone cars and pass them off as "original factory 4 speed" cars.

3. All factory 1961 to 1963 Chevy 4 speed shifters are poor shifters for being tight and not hanging up between gears. I call them wiggle shifters since you have to wiggle the handle to find the gears on worn shifters.
There are guys out there who rebuild original factory 4 speed shifters but the cost is high.

4. A Hurst competition plus shifter is the way to go to replace the original shifter(keep the old factory shifter) - I always changed my 61 to 64 Chevy's to Hurst competition plus 4 speed shifters.
All original "early" Hurst competition plus shifters did not have bolt on handles -the handles on early Hurst 4 speed shifter handles are part of the shifter.
Bolt on reproduction handles (that fit "bolt on style" Hurst 4 speed Shifters ) are sold new like this: Show Cars part # 3368

https://show-cars.com/product/690

Finally the factory rubber bolt could rip open (they only come with the round hole in the boot for the round factory shift handle) if you use a flat Hurst 4 speed shifter handle.

Paul


57 BelairHT 283/270hp 4 spd
62 ImpHT 327/300 4 spd
62 Imp CV SS 327/300HP 700R4 (sold)
62 Imp HT SS 409/482 stroker 4 spd
62 Imp SS 409 - 5 spd Convertible
http://paulstensland.com


 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-24-19 04:34 AM - Post#2771422    
    In response to pvs409

Thanks so much for the reply. I thought I had read about the 63 being a change over year from the T10 to Muncie but didn't post it as I just wasn't sure what I read was correct. Thanks for confirming.

That shifter handle is exactly what I am looking for. That will allow me to keep the stock look inside but upgrade to a better performing shifter.

Just wish I had time to get started on swapping the shifter out, but at the moment I'm up to my eyeballs in cleaning out my dads garage with over 40 years of parts and tools collecting.

I'll probably need to order a new shifter boot for the console as being 56 years old I'm sure it's gonna crack or tear just trying to remove the original shifter.



Edited by DOTracer on 07-24-19 04:36 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Verne_Frantz 
Member #574 "61-64 Subject Matter Expert"
Posts: 5734
Verne_Frantz
Loc: Hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-24-19 07:33 PM - Post#2771488    
    In response to DOTracer

If your trans is original to the car, it won't have the VIN derivitive on it because it's a 250hp 327. Only the 300hp and the 409s got stamped.
The first Muncies started showing up at plants in early February.
Let us know which trans your car has and when it was built (and where)

Verne



 
DZAUTO 
Member #51
Posts: 8822

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
07-25-19 10:23 AM - Post#2771533    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

I agree with all of the above.
The 4spds changed from T10 to Muncie in Feb for FULL SIZE PASS CARS, and about Mar-Apr for Corvettes. So, if your car was built after late-Feb, it should have a Muncie.
Also, in my opinion, the ONLY WAY TO GO with a shifter is a Hurst and then add a REPLICA 63 shifter handle. I have this kind of setup on 3 of my cars ------------------ and I will NEVER go back to a stock GM shifter!

Just one example. This is our 70 Chevelle conv with a Muncie - Hurst shifter - replica handle with M U N C I E stamped into the handle. Solid shifting, factory look.



My son's 68 Chevelle (bench seat setup) with Muncie - Hurst shifter - replica handle. The brushed chrome bezel around the boot is original from a donor car.




 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-25-19 12:39 PM - Post#2771546    
    In response to DZAUTO

Is there any special installation kit specific for the Impala to place the shifter in the proper position, or does the as purchased Hurst Competition plus shifter put the shifter in the correct placement for the handle to come up in the stock console location?

I've been looking into a Modern Driveline Tremec TKO500/600 conversion, but not sure I am willing to modify/raise the transmission tunnel the required 2".



 
Verne_Frantz 
Member #574 "61-64 Subject Matter Expert"
Posts: 5734
Verne_Frantz
Loc: Hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-25-19 01:59 PM - Post#2771551    
    In response to DOTracer

DO,
I don't have a Hurst part number on hand, but if you contact them with the type of trans you have and tell them the model of the car, they will have the right part number for you. You can buy it from them or shop for a used one.
You still haven't said when and where your car was built or what type of trans it has in it now. The switch over to Muncies was not at the same time at all plants and it wasn't made in one day. MANY '63 have been documented with both Borg Warner & Muncies one day after the other and back again. BOTH types of trans missions were in the plants at the same time until all the Warner boxes were used up.

Verne



Edited by Verne_Frantz on 07-25-19 02:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-25-19 02:12 PM - Post#2771553    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

The car is stored at my mothers house as I don't have room here at home. There just isn't room in dads garage to work on it there. I'm way deep on cleaning out 40 years of collecting in dads garage so right now I just don't have time to bring the car home to put it up on stands to verify the trans, rear gear, etc. At this pace, it might take me a year to clean out and sell off everything that is in his garage, piled over 5 feet deep.



 
Verne_Frantz 
Member #574 "61-64 Subject Matter Expert"
Posts: 5734
Verne_Frantz
Loc: Hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-25-19 07:15 PM - Post#2771593    
    In response to DOTracer

Take you time, but you'll need to know which trans it is before you order a Hurst. You'll need the whole kit, including shift rods and arms for the forks.

Verne



 
DZAUTO 
Member #51
Posts: 8822

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
07-25-19 08:49 PM - Post#2771605    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

FIRST, confirm which transmission you have.
Then, Contact Eric Davidson crash_enterprises@yahoo.com
He deals in LOTS of good used Hurst 4sp shifters and parts, at fair prices for quality shifters.
Eric is on other forums such as Team Chevelle. I recommend him without reservations.
When I rebuilt the SB389 in the 51 Chevy and replaced the Muncie for one that I had freshly rebuilt, I told Eric what I needed and that it was for my 51 (which was never built for a 4sp). The shifter he sent me is perfect.
Tell him I referred you.



 
pvs409 
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2740
pvs409
Loc: Sergeant Bluff, Iowa
Reg: 01-10-05
07-25-19 08:58 PM - Post#2771608    
    In response to DOTracer

  • DOTracer Said:
Is there any special installation kit specific for the Impala to place the shifter in the proper position, or does the as purchased Hurst Competition plus shifter put the shifter in the correct placement for the handle to come up in the stock console location?

I've been looking into a Modern Driveline Tremec TKO500/600 conversion, but not sure I am willing to modify/raise the transmission tunnel the required 2".



I have the complete Hurst part numbers for Borg Warner 4 speed and a Muncie 4 speed in your 1963 SS 250HP 327 4 speed.
As Verne stated each type of transmission has its own shift arms and rods.
The shifter body is the same for either transmission.

Hurst competition plus 4 speed shifters sold today are do not have the correct numbers stamped into the rods and arms( I think the Hurst patents or ownership changed ) I do not like that the rods and arms do not have the numbers( they only have the arm/rod numbers using stickers)

Only two Hurst Competition Plus 4 speed shifters will fit your 63 SS shift plate by fitting in the center of the shift plate hole & your factory 4 speed tunnel cover under your carpet( unless you want to remove the stock 1963 SS shifter - & move the 4 speed tunnel cover and shift plate - then your SS console will have to move). Your factory 1963 SS shift plate and 1963 SS console have factory brackets welded to the floor pan to mount both of them in only one location. Use of a non original transmission TKO/Tremec will require complete removal or relocation of these factory SS brackets/shift plate/console.

All of these comments are from my actual Hurst installations on 1961 to 1963 Chevy’s that I have done over the last 25 years using factory 4 speed & factory SS items such as shift plates.

For your comment on a using a TKO500/600 in (1961 to 1964 Chevy’s) - since they all have the same floor pans and factory 4 speed tranmission/shifter locations)

All TKO and Tremec 5 or 6 speeds require:

The entire tunnel from the seat to the firewall has to be raised 2 inches plus.
Your factory 63 SS shift plate and console will have to be removed or relocated ( as noted above) toward the back of the car about 3 inches from the factory locations.
Factory carpet will not fit the floor pan or will require modifications (you will need new carpet).
Transmission costs are over $3000, + driveshaft shortening -(TKO/Tremec are 8 to 11 inches longer than BW & Muncie 4 speeds) + tunnel modifications + factory SS shift plate and SS console modifications or complete removal.

A better solution is a Richmond 5 speed or 6 speed that will bolt in without floor modifications. (More on this is available from my actual conversion in my 62 Impala SS 409 to a Richmond 5 speed.)

Paul


57 BelairHT 283/270hp 4 spd
62 ImpHT 327/300 4 spd
62 Imp CV SS 327/300HP 700R4 (sold)
62 Imp HT SS 409/482 stroker 4 spd
62 Imp SS 409 - 5 spd Convertible
http://paulstensland.com


 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-26-19 04:40 AM - Post#2771622    
    In response to pvs409

I'd be curious to see about the Richmond trans swap just so I can see if that's a direction I'd like to consider.

Do you have a link to a thread showing the conversion process?

Thanks



 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-26-19 04:47 AM - Post#2771623    
    In response to DZAUTO

  • DZAUTO Said:
FIRST, confirm which transmission you have.
Then, Contact Eric Davidson crash_enterprises@yahoo.com
He deals in LOTS of good used Hurst 4sp shifters and parts, at fair prices for quality shifters.
Eric is on other forums such as Team Chevelle. I recommend him without reservations.
When I rebuilt the SB389 in the 51 Chevy and replaced the Muncie for one that I had freshly rebuilt, I told Eric what I needed and that it was for my 51 (which was never built for a 4sp). The shifter he sent me is perfect.
Tell him I referred you.



I just sent Eric a message.

BTW, good to hear from you. I was a member of Team Chevelle for many, many years posting in the performance forum (I have a small tire radial/stock suspension 79 Malibu).




 
pvs409 
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2740
pvs409
Loc: Sergeant Bluff, Iowa
Reg: 01-10-05
07-27-19 08:11 AM - Post#2771712    
    In response to DOTracer

  • DOTracer Said:
I'd be curious to see about the Richmond trans swap just so I can see if that's a direction I'd like to consider.

Do you have a link to a thread showing the conversion process?

Thanks



Here is a post I did on the 348/409 info Exchange forum on Richmond 5 and 6 speed installation for 1961 to 1964 Chevy's. I currently have a Richmond 5 speed in my 62 Impala SS 409 convertible.
You may have to join to view the pictures (it does not cost to join)

http://www.348-409.com/forum/threads/transmi ssion....

I do have some additional pictures of my Richmond Installation.
The Richmond 5 or 6 speed is a bolt up to any Chevy bell housing. You do have to make a new rear transmission mount. Factory 4 speed driveshafts bolt right up. You need a 400 Turbo input for the driveshaft to the 5 speed. You do need a longer speedometer cable (about 90 inches) to reach the stock type speedometer connection on the 5 speed or 6 speed.

Paul



57 BelairHT 283/270hp 4 spd
62 ImpHT 327/300 4 spd
62 Imp CV SS 327/300HP 700R4 (sold)
62 Imp HT SS 409/482 stroker 4 spd
62 Imp SS 409 - 5 spd Convertible
http://paulstensland.com


 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-27-19 12:41 PM - Post#2771724    
    In response to pvs409

Thanks Paul! I can see the thumbnails, just can't enlarge them without joining. I'll try and register later here once a have some free time to relax.



 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-27-19 12:47 PM - Post#2771725    
    In response to DOTracer

Spent the morning and afternoon at dad’s garage doing more cleaning out. Also met a buyer for a few parts then went in the house to search for the shifter dad had purchased for the 63 Impala a long time ago.

Wasn’t sure I was gonna find it but on the last place I had left to look, there it was.

For a 49 year old, it was pretty exciting to find something that was long lost. Even better news is that it wasn’t rusted and all the parts appear to all be there.

If you zoom in on the shipping label, it’s dated September, 1981, shipping was $2.28!!!

The only question I had is if dad had ordered the correct kit. A quick google search brought up a 2005 Hurst catalog that showed this part number. Apparently the number system has changed in recent times.













Makes me wonder what a 81 Vintage shifter is worth today? lol





 
Verne_Frantz 
Member #574 "61-64 Subject Matter Expert"
Posts: 5734
Verne_Frantz
Loc: Hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-27-19 02:19 PM - Post#2771732    
    In response to DOTracer

I hope your Dad ordered the shifter for the trans that's in the car NOW..................which ever one it is.........

Verne



 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-27-19 02:39 PM - Post#2771735    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

  • Verne_Frantz Said:
I hope your Dad ordered the shifter for the trans that's in the car NOW..................which ever one it is.........

Verne



Shifter is for the Muncie.

It won't matter, if the car has a BW T10, it'll be coming out and go on the shelf. I've got 5 transmissions here, two have been positively identified, one a '65 M20 and the other a '68 M21, plus a bunch of cases, tail housings and misc parts. I can't get to the other three to verify what they are right now.

But at the moment I'm also looking into the Auto Gear M22z as an option as well.




Edited by DOTracer on 07-27-19 02:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
japete92 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1320
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-27-19 03:38 PM - Post#2771737    
    In response to DOTracer

  • DOTracer Said:
  • Verne_Frantz Said:
I hope your Dad ordered the shifter for the trans that's in the car NOW..................which ever one it is.........

Verne



Shifter is for the Muncie.

It won't matter, if the car has a BW T10, it'll be coming out and go on the shelf. I've got 5 transmissions here, two have been positively identified, one a '65 M20 and the other a '68 M21, plus a bunch of cases, tail housings and misc parts. I can't get to the other three to verify what they are right now.

But at the moment I'm also looking into the Auto Gear M22z as an option as well.





It is unclear why you are considering changing transmissions but here's some info you may find helpful as you decide on what transmission to use:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/muncie-4 -spe...

I would use a wide ratio (a la the M20 that may have come with the car) on the 327 you have. If the one you have is fine, I'd keep it. If you go to the AutoGear, the M22W is a better choice in my opinion. It has the ratios from the M20 with the gear tooth configuration from the M22.

Also, note the differences in input and output splines. Your car came with 10 spline input, 27 spline outfit.

There are bell housing differences to take into account.

DZAUTO is the expert. He's commented many times on this transmission stuff. Recommend you search for his inputs on '63 (as they compare to other years) transmission components.

Verne and Paul are also experts.

Pete




Edited by japete92 on 07-27-19 03:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-27-19 03:47 PM - Post#2771739    
    In response to japete92

  • japete92 Said:
  • DOTracer Said:
  • Verne_Frantz Said:
I hope your Dad ordered the shifter for the trans that's in the car NOW..................which ever one it is.........

Verne



Shifter is for the Muncie.

It won't matter, if the car has a BW T10, it'll be coming out and go on the shelf. I've got 5 transmissions here, two have been positively identified, one a '65 M20 and the other a '68 M21, plus a bunch of cases, tail housings and misc parts. I can't get to the other three to verify what they are right now.

But at the moment I'm also looking into the Auto Gear M22z as an option as well.





It is unclear why you are considering changing transmissions but here's some info you may find helpful as you decide on what transmission to use:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/muncie-4 -spe...

I would use a wide ratio (a la the M20 that may have come with the car) on the 327 you have. If the one you have is fine, I'd keep it. If you go to the AutoGear, the M22W is a better choice in my opinion. It has the ratios from the M20 with the gear tooth configuration from the M22.

Also, note the differences in input and output splines. Your car came with 10 spline input, 27 spline outfit.

There are bell housing differences to take into account.

DZAUTO is the expert. He's commented many times on this transmission stuff. Recommend you search for his inputs on '63 (as they compare to other years) transmission components.

Verne and Paul are also experts.

Pete




I feel the car needs more first gear ratio to get moving from a stop. I'm pretty sure the tires on the car are taller than the OEM rubber. I went to check the size this morning but the sidewall markings were both rotated up inside the quarter panel lip and I didn't feel like moving the car so I'll verify the diameter at a later date.

I am looking at the M22z for the 2.98 first gear.

A buddy suggested an overdrive which is why I was considering a 5 speed setup as well. Given I don't plan on any lengthy highway trips, I'm not totally sold on the overdrive yet.

I also like the M22z as it keeps the 27 spline output and I believe it's the same length as the Muncie so no driveshaft changes. I could care less what spline the input shaft has as I will most definitely be removing the current stiff 409 clutch with a modern diaphram clutch. The original clutch went out when the car was new and the dealership replaced it with a 409 clutch under warranty.

There is no good reason to change to the M22W over the current M20 IMO.



Edited by DOTracer on 07-27-19 04:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-27-19 03:59 PM - Post#2771741    
    In response to DOTracer

Found dads receipt folder. Back tires are 255/70R15 which is 29" tall.



 
japete92 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1320
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-27-19 06:59 PM - Post#2771760    
    In response to DOTracer

This old topic did not start out with a question anywhere near yours, but there is some info on bell housing and flywheels you may find helpful:

https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...

A 250 hp 327 would have had 153 tooth flywheel with a 10 1/2" clutch disc. A 409 would have the 168 tooth flywheel with an 11" clutch. Do you know any details about the replacement '409 clutch'?The 11" clutch is not compatible with the smaller bell housing/flywheel.

I do not know what is installed on your car; I don't need to know. To avoid costly rework, I think it would be wise for you to determine what you really have. And then decide the best course of action to achieve your goals.

I'm just trying to be helpful.

Pete



Edited by japete92 on 07-27-19 07:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-27-19 07:11 PM - Post#2771761    
    In response to japete92

  • japete92 Said:
This old topic did not start out with a question anywhere near yours, but there is some info on bell housing and flywheels you may find helpful:

https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...

A 250 hp 327 would have had 153 tooth flywheel with a 10 1/2" clutch disc. A 409 would have the 168 tooth flywheel with an 11" clutch. Do you know any details about the replacement '409 clutch'?The 11" clutch is not compatible with the smaller bell housing/flywheel.

I do not know what is installed on your car; I don't need to know. To avoid costly rework, I think it would be wise for you to determine what you really have. And then decide the best course of action to achieve your goals.

I'm just trying to be helpful.

Pete



Thanks for the info. I bookmarked that for future reference. I'll figure out what I'm gonna do with the clutch once it's decided if I change the trans or not...i.e. 10 spline input vs 26 spline, etc.

I won't be inspecting the clutch/bellhousing/trans till I can have space and time to get the car here at home, which will probably be next spring. Maybe this fall but with my racing season and working on cleaning out dads garage, free time is pretty limited to work on the Impala.



Edited by DOTracer on 07-27-19 07:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Verne_Frantz 
Member #574 "61-64 Subject Matter Expert"
Posts: 5734
Verne_Frantz
Loc: Hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-27-19 07:55 PM - Post#2771764    
    In response to japete92

  • japete92 Said:
This old topic did not start out with a question anywhere near yours, but there is some info on bell housing and flywheels you may find helpful:

https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...

A 250 hp 327 would have had 153 tooth flywheel with a 10 1/2" clutch disc. A 409 would have the 168 tooth flywheel with an 11" clutch. Do you know any details about the replacement '409 clutch'?The 11" clutch is not compatible with the smaller bell housing/flywheel.

I do not know what is installed on your car; I don't need to know. To avoid costly rework, I think it would be wise for you to determine what you really have. And then decide the best course of action to achieve your goals.

I'm just trying to be helpful.

Pete



Pete,
All the 409s had a 10.5" clutch, (not 11") even though they had the large 168 tooth flywheel.

Verne



 
japete92 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1320
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-28-19 06:18 AM - Post#2771785    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

Thanks Verne. I must have read Tom's comments incorrectly on that.

Pete



 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-28-19 07:55 AM - Post#2771798    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

  • Verne_Frantz Said:
  • japete92 Said:
This old topic did not start out with a question anywhere near yours, but there is some info on bell housing and flywheels you may find helpful:

https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?t...

A 250 hp 327 would have had 153 tooth flywheel with a 10 1/2" clutch disc. A 409 would have the 168 tooth flywheel with an 11" clutch. Do you know any details about the replacement '409 clutch'?The 11" clutch is not compatible with the smaller bell housing/flywheel.

I do not know what is installed on your car; I don't need to know. To avoid costly rework, I think it would be wise for you to determine what you really have. And then decide the best course of action to achieve your goals.

I'm just trying to be helpful.

Pete



Pete,
All the 409s had a 10.5" clutch, (not 11") even though they had the large 168 tooth flywheel.

Verne



So dads story about the dealer installing a 409 clutch under warranty could very well be true?

...using the existing flywheel and bellhousing?



 
japete92 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1320
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-28-19 08:36 AM - Post#2771802    
    In response to DOTracer

Sure; never said it wasn't true. I assumed it was and what ever other changes necessary were also completed. Now my question (just 'cause I'm curious) is the are there ANY differences between the 327 clutch and the 409?

As for using your existing bellhousing and flywheel; yes you can (always could) but you need to ID the parts you have and match your 'new' parts to them. As Tom (DZAUTO) noted, the '63 bell housing is a one year only unit. Things can change w/o documentation. Better 'know' than 'assume'.

Pete

Pete



 
DOTracer 
Member
Posts: 37
DOTracer
Reg: 09-19-04
07-28-19 11:31 AM - Post#2771812    
    In response to japete92

Was able to free up a little time this afternoon so I loaded up some tools and headed out for a little fact finding mission.

First off I did confirm the car has a posi for sure.





The gear ratio appears to be a 3.55 by tire revolution vs pinion rotation. I also discovered the back brakes are dragging pretty heavily as well. lol

Next up I confirmed the transmission truly is a Muncie.





For the moment I'm going to assume it's a M20 wide ratio. Don't know if it's possible if GM ever installed the close ration M21 in these cars or not? No stampings visible on the passenger side like I have seen on other Muncie transmissions.

Also, there appears to be a casting date molded into the case. Can anyone decipher it?



Next up I confirmed the small 153 tooth flexplate by the bellhousing casting number.



Lastly, I was always curious to what these cars actually weighed so on the scales it went.







So 3800 lbs without driver.



Edited by DOTracer on 07-28-19 11:34 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
japete92 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1320
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-28-19 12:18 PM - Post#2771816    
    In response to DOTracer

Here's some more info to hopefully help:

https://www.5speeds.com/muncie2.htm


The ...421 bell housing and the ...1704 transmission are 1963 ONLY.
The front bearing retainer (and the 'hole' in the bell housing) are unique to 1963. The 153 tooth fly wheel (flex plates are for sissy automatics ) fits within.

Love the color. Here's a pic of my '63. It came to me with a 327 from a '66, a truck bell housing, and a Saginaw 4 speed. It had a complete kluge of a clutch pedal arrangement. It now has a '383 stroker' (385 hp @ 5200 rpm; 440 torque @ 3800 rpm), an AutoGear M22w, The proper clutch pedal mechanics, and a RAM clutch (I kept the truck bell housing but specified the required larger front bearing retainer that AutoGear sold). The remainder of the car is very much '1963'.

Good luck with whatever you decided to do with it.

Pete


Attachment: IMG_0430.jpg (1.36 MB) 3 View(s)






 
Verne_Frantz 
Member #574 "61-64 Subject Matter Expert"
Posts: 5734
Verne_Frantz
Loc: Hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-28-19 07:32 PM - Post#2771857    
    In response to DOTracer

The Muncie case was cast the 3rd month of '63. On the left side, just behind the side cover at the lower corner will be the assembly date of the trans. (some are stamped on the rear side edge of the main case) Since it was a 250hp car, it won't have the VIN stamped there.

The '63 327 and 409 clutches were different, but both were a diaphram type.

The M20 wide ratio came standard with the 327, but with the 3.55 rear, the close ratio could have been optioned.

Verne



Edited by Verne_Frantz on 07-28-19 07:32 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 


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