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Username Post: Radiator fan orientation        (Topic#351013)
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-07-18 11:49 AM - Post#2733299    

Got the ’60 moving and once I got the wheels adjusted pretty much straight forward and was able to get on my street and moved it back and forth a few times I noticed that the temp was creeping up. It took about 10 minutes or so to get up there, 212*, taken with an infrared thermometer. I’m not sure that I have the fan turned the correct way. It never ran hot when I would have it running before but I have had the fan off and on a couple of times since then and not sure if I reinstalled it correctly. I hope that the picture is good enough to tell. Thanks, Lamar

Attachment: IMG_4551.jpg (1.52 MB) 4 View(s)






 
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PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-07-18 01:09 PM - Post#2733305    
    In response to PLS

I don’t know why I didn’t try this before posting but I cranked it up and put a piece of paper in front of the radiator and it pulled it up against the radiator pretty readily so I’m guessing that the fan is installed correctly. I’m assuming that the pump is working because the radiator and hoses are HOT. After it cools I think that I will remove the thermostat to make sure that it is opening completely.



 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-07-18 03:11 PM - Post#2733313    
    In response to PLS

Well I replaced the thermostat and it still creeps on up but seem to take longer. The one that I removed was a 180* so I bought a 160* just to see what it would do. Maybe when I'm able to drive it, it will settle down but it looks like that if everything was good it would stay at the correct temp since the weather here isn't that hot yet, just 82 today.

I guess that I am using this post to just think out loud



 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6772
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
05-07-18 04:40 PM - Post#2733321    
    In response to PLS

Did you do an engine rebuild?

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
ragtp66 
Contributor
Posts: 648
ragtp66
Reg: 12-09-07
05-07-18 07:33 PM - Post#2733332    
    In response to PLS

A little hard to tell because of the angle but is the fan blade as close to 1/2 in and 1/2 out of the shroud?

Also have you checked your ignition timing? Late ignition will cause it to run hot I believe the book calls for it to be in gear for an automatic. I am not close to my service manual at the moment but hopefully someone else will chime in.

Is the temperature using your IR gun the same at the top and bottom of the radiator? Check temps on the exhaust and intake as well. Stuck heat riser on the passenger side can also make it run hot. Make sure it moves freely.


Toys:
1958 Impala 2dr Hardtop Under Construction
1966 Chevelle Malibu Convert M20/350 Aztec Bronze
1987 Sea Ray Pachanga 22
2002 Cadillac Escalade EXT Parts chaser
2007 Trailblazer SS -gone and missed


 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-07-18 08:03 PM - Post#2733340    
    In response to ragtp66

  • DonSSDD Said:
Did you do an engine rebuild?




Hey Don, the engine was rebuilt in 1984 and was never turned over until I cranked it up Jan. 2014, looong story. Here’s the link to the start-up: http://chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/27... I have had it running many times since but this was the first time that I have been able to actually drive it and it never really got hot before. You will probably notice that this post, in the link above, was done in April of this year and the reason is that I was trying to restore my previous post after Photobucket wreaked havoc on so many of CT members post.

  • ragtp66 Said:
A little hard to tell because of the angle but is the fan blade as close to 1/2 in and 1/2 out of the shroud?

Also have you checked your ignition timing? Late ignition will cause it to run hot I believe the book calls for it to be in gear for an automatic. I am not close to my service manual at the moment but hopefully someone else will chime in.

Is the temperature using your IR gun the same at the top and bottom of the radiator? Check temps on the exhaust and intake as well. Stuck heat riser on the passenger side can also make it run hot. Make sure it moves freely.



Thank you Ragtp, I will check your suggestions tomorrow and let you know what I find.








 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-08-18 08:51 AM - Post#2733393    
    In response to ragtp66

For all practical purposes the fan is ½ in and ½ out of the shroud but as you said it hard to determine from the angle of the photo. I don’t have a reliable timing light to check the timing. The weight on the heat riser was in the up position yesterday while it was hot and this morning it was still up. It moves really easy up and down by hand and it was a new one that I had purchased when I got my exhaust system. I cranked it up this morning and as the temp went up it never moved and when I pushed the weight down it freely and easily returned to the up position. I will check the different locations for the temp this afternoon. Thoughts? Lamar



 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-08-18 11:01 AM - Post#2733405    
    In response to PLS

These are the temp reading with the heat riser weight tied down in the open position:: T’stat housing: 169* At temp. sending unit: 175* Top of radiator: 180* Bottom of radiator: 160* Front of left head: 160* Front of right head: 175* Front of left header: 410* Rear of left header: 490* Front of right header: 460* Rear of right header: 390* The header temps were taken between the exhaust ports and all of the temps are the best I could get because the temps would move around a bit. I am going to temporally reinstall the mechanical temp gauge that I used when I ran the engine on the test stand and see what it says that it is doing at different stages.



 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-08-18 01:03 PM - Post#2733413    
    In response to ragtp66

I installed the mechanical temp gauge and refilled the radiator and after 15 minutes it was a little over 170* but it was still pretty warm from the previous run. After 15 minutes I untied the heat riser and in 8 minutes it went to 200*. Both headers were in the mid 400* range but after I unwired the riser my IR thermometer registered 'ERROR' on the right header. The IR probably only goes to 500*. I think that the heat riser is the main culprit. Raggtp66 thank you very much for your help, it is greatly appreciated!!! Everything is closer to being normal than it was yesterday. Lamar

Attachment: IMG_4555__2_.JPG (634.44 KB) 4 View(s)


After running 15 minutes.


Attachment: IMG_4556__2_.JPG (658.38 KB) 3 View(s)


After running an additional 8 minutes with the heat riser weight untied and returned to the up position.




 
WagonMan 
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1622
WagonMan
Age: 70
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Reg: 10-26-04
05-08-18 06:43 PM - Post#2733450    
    In response to PLS

Even if you were to turn the fan around, it will still pull air through the radiator. The only way for it to push air through the radiator is to reverse the rotation direction.
The only limitation to turning the fan around would be fan clearance to belts and pulleys.
From what I can see it looks fine as it is and the temps shown aren't out of line for a recent rebuild.

Charles

57 210 4dr. Wagon(bought '82)
-350/700r4 Mild Custom
56 BA 4dr. ht.(bought '98)
-265/TH350 Mostly Stock
29 Ford Sedan(bought '75)
-4.3L/TH350(in progress)


 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-08-18 07:08 PM - Post#2733453    
    In response to WagonMan

Thank you Charles, I appreciate your input very much. Lamar



 
ragtp66 
Contributor
Posts: 648
ragtp66
Reg: 12-09-07
05-08-18 08:00 PM - Post#2733458    
    In response to PLS

Lamar

Can you post a picture of the heat riser ? It has been a little while since I have had a car with manifolds on it but you said the weight was UP when it was hot, that seems to me to be the opposite of how it should be orientated. Someone else will correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the heavy weight should basically be at 6 o'clock-ish position when its hot and open and at 3 or 9 o'clock when closed. As the bi-metal spring heats up it allows the weight to drop and opens the butterfly inside the heat riser. After the car gets cold again the spring pulls the weight up to help with cold starting.

I would definitely try to get a timing light on it as soon as you can. If nothing else grab a vacuum gauge and set it where you have the highest vacuum reading. If it pings when accelerating you may need to back it off a couple degrees, that should at least get you into the ball park. Today's crappy gas doesn't help any. Hopefully you can find alcohol free gas where you live.

Toys:
1958 Impala 2dr Hardtop Under Construction
1966 Chevelle Malibu Convert M20/350 Aztec Bronze
1987 Sea Ray Pachanga 22
2002 Cadillac Escalade EXT Parts chaser
2007 Trailblazer SS -gone and missed


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6772
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
05-09-18 01:34 AM - Post#2733477    
    In response to ragtp66

The weight up on the heat riser when cold is correct, the flap is closed then. The heat riser has a groove on the bottom for the exhaust gasket donut and is flat on top, so not likely it would be installed upside down.
For a newly built motor, things are tights for a few thousand miles until the rings wear in, the temp will run cooler after it loosens up a bit. Just keep an eye on the temp and when driving it, make sure you vary speeds. Drive it like you stole it and it will get broken in correctly and faster.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-09-18 04:26 PM - Post#2733547    
    In response to DonSSDD

  • ragtp66 Said:
Lamar

Can you post a picture of the heat riser ? It has been a little while since I have had a car with manifolds on it but you said the weight was UP when it was hot, that seems to me to be the opposite of how it should be orientated. Someone else will correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the heavy weight should basically be at 6 o'clock-ish position when its hot and open and at 3 or 9 o'clock when closed. As the bi-metal spring heats up it allows the weight to drop and opens the butterfly inside the heat riser. After the car gets cold again the spring pulls the weight up to help with cold starting.

I would definitely try to get a timing light on it as soon as you can. If nothing else grab a vacuum gauge and set it where you have the highest vacuum reading. If it pings when accelerating you may need to back it off a couple degrees, that should at least get you into the ball park. Today's crappy gas doesn't help any. Hopefully you can find alcohol free gas where you live.



Thank you ragtp66, When I said that the weight was up, I meant in relation to the other position. You’re correct as to the position, when it is closed/cold the weight is approximately at the 3 or 9 o’clock position depending on which way you may be looking at it and approximately at the 6 o’clock position when open/hot. It moves very very easy when you move it. When I had it on the test stand I let my neighbor who rebuilt it 30 years ago crank it over the first time but it didn’t start right up so after a few more tries his son Danny started tweaking the timing and it started then. Danny works for Proline racing, https://www.prolineracing.net/ . I told him that one of these days I may get one of these engines and drop it in the ’60: https://www.prolineracing.net/blogs/engines/plr-52... As far as the gas goes, when the guy rebuilt my carburetor he said that any fuel could be used and I did use the ethanol gas before because I was using an temporary external tank with a elect pump. Now that I have installed the real tank I have been buying the ethanol free gas, one reason is because I’m not sure that the fuel pump that I have on it would stand up under the ethanol and another reason is she never ran on anything except leaded gas. It’s only about a buck more and about 2 miles from the house. Lamar



  • DonSSDD Said:
The weight up on the heat riser when cold is correct, the flap is closed then. The heat riser has a groove on the bottom for the exhaust gasket donut and is flat on top, so not likely it would be installed upside down.
For a newly built motor, things are tights for a few thousand miles until the rings wear in, the temp will run cooler after it loosens up a bit. Just keep an eye on the temp and when driving it, make sure you vary speeds. Drive it like you stole it and it will get broken in correctly and faster.




Hey Don how fast does a 77 year old man drive a stolen car?





Attachment: IMG_4561.JPG (1.06 MB) 4 View(s)


Up


Attachment: IMG_4562.JPG (972.27 KB) 3 View(s)


Down, this is the best that I could do with my phone




 
beagrizzly 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1808
beagrizzly
Age: 67
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
05-10-18 09:04 AM - Post#2733595    
    In response to PLS

"Hey Don how fast does a 77 year old man drive a stolen car?"

May I answer that for Don?

Does the term "WFO" mean anything to you?
How about "WOT"? Both mean the same thing, just different crowds.

On the fan, the little flip up belongs on the tail of the blade away from the radiator. It gives a little more pull. It works similar to a curved trailing edge on a boat prop.

Griff.


if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6772
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
05-10-18 11:58 AM - Post#2733614    
    In response to beagrizzly

Good answer.

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-10-18 12:34 PM - Post#2733617    
    In response to beagrizzly

Hey Griff, I’m not very good with deciphering acronyms, matter of fact had to look up how to spell it.
Figure this one out: WOFMMOB35




 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-12-18 02:02 PM - Post#2733791    
    In response to PLS

Drove the '60 to the alignment shop this morning and the temp did great. I wired the heat riser in the open position. Griff I did about 25 going and smoking on the way back, 35 Ragtp66 thank you again for pointing the heat riser out



Edited by PLS on 05-12-18 03:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beagrizzly 
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Posts: 1808
beagrizzly
Age: 67
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
05-14-18 07:37 AM - Post#2733939    
    In response to PLS

It's gonna smoke for a couple of days. As clean as you can keep it, your hands leave a little grease on the manifolds, exhaust system, etc. You might even be burning a little paint.

If it doesn't stop after a couple more little drives, I'd check for leaks, but until then, run it hard for a little while. (providing your brakes work well, and front end is good on the alignment)

SAFETY FIRST!!

At least before you endanger every body on the highway! LOL.

Griff

if you're gonna be a bear..................

1960 Biscayne (the 6T)
2005 Yukon XL
2007 GMC Sierra Classic 8.1
2009 Silverado
2011 Escalade ESV


 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-14-18 08:08 PM - Post#2733991    
    In response to beagrizzly

Hey Griff, I need to clarify what I meant when I said, “I did about 25 going and smoking on the way back, 35”. I was trying to be funny, I didn’t mean that the car was smoking but rather I drove about 25 mph going to the shop and a whopping 35 mph on the way back. No there’s no smoke coming from the car and as many times that I have had it running everything that was going to burn off has. Sorry about that. Lamar



 
YOUNG57 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1025

Loc: Tennessee
Reg: 12-06-10
05-14-18 08:23 PM - Post#2733995    
    In response to beagrizzly

Smoking, you are probably burning paint off the exhaust cross over passage of the intake manifold. Unless you live in a cold climate the early warm-up of the heat riser valve and exhaust cross over passage are over kill. Many of us block the exhaust cross over passage at the head to intake gasket to avoid excessive heat under the carb and burning the paint off the intake.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4172
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
05-15-18 03:45 AM - Post#2734000    
    In response to YOUNG57

Hi Lamar, the fan looks fine to me, and as other poster have said it will work almost the same both ways. Flat metal blades are not aero-foils like wings or props.

If you want it to be more efficient then increase the depth of the shroud so its more enclosed as this reduces tip spillage which is where most of the action is happening.

Thermostat opening temp has nothing to do with overheating at all. It is solely to speed up engine warm up and reduce wear. I have never found a thermostat that fails to open fully if it opens at all. And only a very few that fail closed.

If you are running a new rebuild with out a new core then I would expect it to boil if you let it sit still. New build engines generate more heat during bed in and will find any weaknesses in your system.

If you haven't got the timing right and the mixture very close to exact then you should get this right and go through a proper break in procedure.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
PLS 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1024
PLS
Loc: Smyrna, Georgia
Reg: 06-07-12
05-15-18 12:18 PM - Post#2734036    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi


  • YOUNG57 Said:
Smoking, you are probably burning paint off the exhaust cross over passage of the intake manifold. Unless you live in a cold climate the early warm-up of the heat riser valve and exhaust cross over passage are over kill. Many of us block the exhaust cross over passage at the head to intake gasket to avoid excessive heat under the carb and burning the paint off the intake.




Thank you Young57,It seems that I opened a can of worms by mentioning “smoking” to “beagrizzly” above. I wasn’t referring to the car itself was smoking from anywhere, just trying to describe how fast that I was driving on the way home, I was being facetious. I haven’t used the “smoking” term in a long time but I remember saying years ago, when someone would pass me going really fast, “man there’re smoking”
When I put the engine back together I didn’t install the exhaust restrictor plates and as far as I can remember they didn’t come with the gasket set that I purchased. I found some items in a box much later that had been in the out building long before I purchased the set so I posted this:
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?ti... Had I of known what they were and their function I would have installed them but coulda, shoulda, woulda want get it now. Everything is burned off now and that is something that the next owner can correct. The temp seemed to be really good once I tied the heat riser in the open position and I guess that the “wire” will be a permanent thing. Lamar








  • Bel Air kiwi Said:
Hi Lamar, the fan looks fine to me, and as other poster have said it will work almost the same both ways. Flat metal blades are not aero-foils like wings or props.

If you want it to be more efficient then increase the depth of the shroud so its more enclosed as this reduces tip spillage which is where most of the action is happening.

Thermostat opening temp has nothing to do with overheating at all. It is solely to speed up engine warm up and reduce wear. I have never found a thermostat that fails to open fully if it opens at all. And only a very few that fail closed.

If you are running a new rebuild with out a new core then I would expect it to boil if you let it sit still. New build engines generate more heat during bed in and will find any weaknesses in your system.

If you haven't got the timing right and the mixture very close to exact then you should get this right and go through a proper break in procedure.

Cheers Kiwi



Thank you Kiwi, yes it has a new core and my main problem was the heat riser, spelled “CHINA”. Not for sure if it from China but probably is. Lamar










 
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