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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: Possible Vapor Lock issue?        (Topic#348411)
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-27-17 07:24 AM - Post#2715895    

after driving a bunch of miles earlier, my car started losing power and stumbling on way home. Opened hood and saw fuel in the fuel filter housing bubbling. I did not see air coming from the bottom of the filter housing but it was peculating anyway. This is first time it has happened, is it a bad fuel pump, or is it a vapor lock and somehow fuel line is heating up, maybe carb got to hot? Any ideas would be great. Engine temp was fine, outside temp was only 82.



 

2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18433
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
11-27-17 08:31 AM - Post#2715908    
    In response to beachb

Assuming a 235 or a 216 for an engine. With the alcohol in fuel now heat can be a problem but only one time have I ever had an trouble and that was returning from a trip to Canada on a hot 6th of July day, long line at the border crossing, so sitting in the heat cause a problem that went away as soon as I got moving again. At 82 degrees and no problem in the past I would suggest checking fuel pump pressure.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


Edited by 2blu52 on 11-27-17 11:36 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-27-17 09:43 AM - Post#2715915    
    In response to 2blu52

Thanks, I will check that out too.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-27-17 01:56 PM - Post#2715945    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB, Where is your fuel filter located? can you post pictures?

Does you engine have stock exhaust, and does the heat stove still move?

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-27-17 02:05 PM - Post#2715947    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Its a 216 with the fuel pupmp locate don side of the block near the bottom. The fuel filter is located on opposite side of engine at top just before getting to carb. Its a see thru bowl with the filter element inside.

The only mod done is I put fenton headers on there to split the exhaust. I will try to get a foto later today.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-27-17 04:16 PM - Post#2715962    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB, I know a lot of folk put fuel filters there and it is handy to see if fuel is getting to the carb.
But if it leaks you can burn your car down, and as they have cork or rubber gaskets that is quite possible.

It should actually be before the fuel pump, as it protects the diaphragm and valves from tank sediment. There may already be a screen in your pump. If so you can put it on the outlet and it will tell you if you have pump output. If it leaks then it dribbles on the ground.

Headers can increase the amount of heat soak in the intake manifold and carb area. Particularly under hard load and slow speed, or pulling up and idling.
Alcohol additives have a high octane rating but quite low boiling point so that can be a factor. If you are constantly running a fuel with added alcohol then you may be able to lower the intake manifold temperature with a heat shield.

Or you could chrome everything and louver the hood.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-27-17 04:42 PM - Post#2715969    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks for the help, not sure what other heat shield I can add, it has a small one under part of fuel line but stops before the filter and carb, maybe a larger one that goes under the fuel filter too. Im afraid that maybe the carb got heat soaked since it is attached to intake and exhaust is right under. I can add but will see. While I wouldn't call what I did heavy load I guess 1 hr plus at 65 and running a bit high RPM may have caused the extra heat. I want to drive it like that from time to time so I may take to shop and see what mod I can do to eliminate the issue.



 
cbmkr56 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1039
cbmkr56
Age: 62
Loc: Basehor Ks
Reg: 02-11-13
11-27-17 06:40 PM - Post#2715987    
    In response to beachb

We have had a problem like yours this past summer with 3 cars my orig 46 coupe my 50 w/261 built engine and our son in laws 51 / 350 i just finished.
There is too much Alcohol in the gasoline we buy,To solve the problem we added octane boost or diesel fuel to the tank.



Edited by cbmkr56 on 11-29-17 04:21 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-27-17 06:43 PM - Post#2715989    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB. You don't need to take it to a shop to sort that out. If you post some pictures of what you have.(Cause I don't read so good.) Then I am sure you will get a whole lot of helpful advice and guidance.

When folks talk about our engines being either
90, 105, up to 150 HP they are talking about the maximum you can get from a Lab (Blueprinted.) engine in a dyno room. However you don't drive using that horsepower. You drive using the torque curve.

Horse power is a derived function that compares torque to revs. It is largely meaningless other than for bench racing.

However having said that it is a function I factor in when configuring cooling requirements. Since about the best a NA petrol will do in steady state optimum is turn 1/4 of the fuels potential energy into work at the flywheel.

The rest all goes to a bit of friction and an awful lot of waste heat. So in simple terms (bad physics) 3 times the amount of Hp you are using at any time is being produced as excess or waste heat in the engine. So if you were driving along on the open road using 70Hp, the air and exhaust are removing 210Hp worth of waste heat.

That's fine when you have the airflow but when you pull up and shut down there is still 210Hp of heat in the engine, with no airflow and so the engine releases it all into the engine bay. It boils the coolant in the head most times creating steam pockets that don't cool well at all. You don't normally see the temp gauge spike as you hop out and walk away.

Most folks call this heat soak and as we up the Hp and expose the exhaust more we make it a bit worse. Otherwise it was a normal function of driving old school cars on old school petrol.
Changing the fuel is one way to turn this from normal to an occasional issue.

The simplest fix is to drive the car as it should be driven. So that's like Grandpa used too. Go out and warm it up while you wait for Grandma and when you pull up let it settle down and run at idle for a minute or so until the temp gauge has spiked and returned.

Another way to use an old car is to think of it like a big rig turbo diesel. You warm it up, you drive it modestly in the revs using the gears properly, and you sit and normalize it when you stop.

If that doesn't solve your problems there are a raft of other fixes available that are quite simple.

Cheers Kiwi






48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-27-17 07:10 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-27-17 08:40 PM - Post#2716017    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks Kiwi. I do drive it very normal in the city and country roads. I do drive it a bit hard on freeway 65-70 but other than that nothing. I will take it easy on it. Funny thing is that the car had 5 hours of sitting on it after driving it freeway for an hour and then gave me 20 minutes before issue came up. I will keep an eye on things and work them out hopefully.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-28-17 06:10 PM - Post#2716179    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB, If the problem is not coming up straight away after use then that tends to indicate that heat soak may not be the prime issue.

When a closed vessel cools with some airspace the pressure inside goes down in proportion. That's why carbs and fuel tanks have vents. If they can't equalize with atmospheric pressure they tend to get squished due to pressure differential.

The fuel line between the pump and carb with a filter in is like that as the pump outlet valve and the float valve are holding it closed. So you could be sucking air in passed these as it cools, in through the fittings or filter gasket.

The fuel line, intake manifold and carb are going to be quite warm (hot to touch) after a run so if you shut down there is no cooling fuel moving, so it will initially get hotter then slowly cool. This give quite a wide differential of temp and therefore pressure so it could draw in air.

Alternately the pump could be on it's way out.
Or it could be a combination of both. Post some pic's and we may be able to help.

Pull the oil dipstick and walk outside and smell for petrol. Has the level gone up or is not falling over use?

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-28-17 06:16 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Cruzin Okie 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 676
Cruzin Okie
Loc: Jay, Oklahoma
Reg: 10-26-11
11-28-17 09:10 PM - Post#2716209    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

On 7-14-94 I vapor locked a Piper Comanche. I got to 1000 ft AGL and shut the electric fuel pump off. At that point the engine started loosing power and died. Man did it get quiet until it hit the ground!!!!

Johnnie

1950 styleline deluxe sports coupe, 350 cid, TH 400, nova rear end. Gen IV Vintage air. SOLD!
1953 210 4 Door, 235 with Powerglide. All original except for the 1954 hood bird.

John 3:16



Edited by Cruzin Okie on 11-28-17 09:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-28-17 09:27 PM - Post#2716212    
    In response to Cruzin Okie

Thx. There s a heat shield that covers part of fuel line when it comes from the front of the engine towards the fuel filter and all the way to just before carb. Carb has a 1/2 in phenolic spacer so I just can't see why heat would do it. I will get pics. Question if you get an electric fuel pump will that solve the issue or are you just masking a Nother problem with heat that an electric pump will not fix



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-28-17 11:30 PM - Post#2716224    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB, because it is an inline non cross-flow the exhaust sits under the intake and carb. So that keeps them pretty warm.
Electric fuel pump won't change that as it will still need to have a fuel line along the manifold.

If you don't want to just keep throwing beer vouchers at the problem then you need to find out what's actually going wrong.

That is, see if the bubbles are happening immediately after shut down, or not until it cools down later?

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-28-17 11:31 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-29-17 07:15 AM - Post#2716238    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

When it cut out on me and I pulled to side of road I popped the hood to see. The fuel in the filter bowl was peculating right then. Engine obviously at that time wasn't cooled as it just shut down when it crapped out.



 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-29-17 08:40 AM - Post#2716247    
    In response to beachb

little update, I did fill up using arco gas 87 oct. I don't usually do that but could that fuel have a higher alc content and cause an issue compared to say mobil or chevron that I normally use?



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-29-17 03:46 PM - Post#2716289    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB, that is definitely possible. Because we are a small country we only have the one oil refinery, jointly owned by three big brands. The fuel is always the same, however we have a new player in the market and they buy their fuel from Indonesia and it is refined there, it is slightly higher octane and does behave differently. 98 v 95 Octane for other three.

What that would tell you is however that you are close to doing this in normal circumstances and there are fixes we could suggest to improve that for you if we knew what we were looking at.

Personally I would run the scenario and then lift the hood and touch the rocker cover. Then the side of the carb, and then the fuel line. Or you can get a thermal gun thermometer as they are cheap now.
The Head should burn your fingers so don't do that.

A late model Jag I wrecked had sleeved fuel lines so I saved all those sleeves. One of My cars has factory headers, and a clutch cable. Normally they would be cast iron and further apart. So they eat clutch cables, dry them out and burn the sleeve. All they did at the factory was hang the cable off a spring and they didn't last long so I just put the ceramic weave sleeve around the cable.

As I said there are plenty of fixes to help this, and they may help your engine perform better.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-29-17 03:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
beachb 
Poster
Posts: 74

Reg: 09-26-17
11-29-17 08:57 PM - Post#2716331    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks Kiwi. I do have part of the fuel line wrapped from where it comes over the front of the engine leading to the fuel filter and carb there is a heatshield that covers that whole area up to the carb in the carburetor itself is sitting on a 7/16 or half-inch phenolic spacer for thermal. I will certainly look at insulating the fuel line all the way from the tank up to the pump and then from the pump to the top of the engine and wrapping it in thermal fabric. The mechanic friend here told me that in California Arco gas is OK for newer cars but sensitive cars and in his opinion old classic cars never run good on it and if you have to use that gas use the best octane available. What kind of temperatures should I not be seen if I use that thermal gun what temperature would scare you, the engine temperature never climbed out of the normal on the gauge nor did the oil temp



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-29-17 11:08 PM - Post#2716345    
    In response to beachb

Hi BeachB, I can't see any point in insulating your fuel line before the pump. And really the only part that is subject to heat soak is the run along above the manifolds. Usually the cover on the line over the water pump is to stop abrasion on the pipe.

If you have checked all your fittings to make sure its not air coming in then the heat soak is coming from the head, the exhaust manifold and the block predominantly.

Given that heat rises this may be that you are seeing this as you have a clear filter and in a steel line it would just push past the needle valve unseen.

Phenolic resin spacers are conduction heat insulators for the carb from the intake manifold. They don't impact on radiant heat coming off the exhaust etc, and raising the latent air temperature around the carb or fuel line.

If you don't want to sit and normalize the engine, after a hard work out, then the other option is a cooling fan or if you want to go and spend a lot of beer vouchers get a Davies Craig electric water pump and controller.

When I pull up and turn the key off my electric water pump runs hard out for a further minute or two. This cools the exhaust valves and prevents steam pockets.
As the radiator has a 16" Electric fan the hot water going back through the radiator is cooling and returning to the engine.
My headers are fully wrapped from the heads to the collector so they don't add to engine bay temps, if they weren't then they would burn the paint off the hood.
Although this is a V8 the problems of heat soak are not so type specific.

Have you considered giving your cooling system a cleaner run through and then a reverse flush. Check that your timing is correct, and that you are not running too lean.


Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
53sd 
Contributor
Posts: 128

Reg: 12-08-08
11-30-17 01:23 AM - Post#2716350    
    In response to beachb

  • beachb Said:
Funny thing is that the car had 5 hours of sitting on it after driving it freeway for an hour and then gave me 20 minutes before issue came up. I will keep an eye on things and work them out hopefully.



Was the 87 fuel added before the highway run or after?

Given this set of circumstances,I'm thinking,check your fuel pump pressure.
I would also check the timing,points may have slipped.

After 5 hour cool down,20 min drive shouldn't cause a heat-soak.
But why the plate under the fuel line?
One would imagine this issue has been chased before.

Or maybe just a tank of shitty fuel.







 
53sd 
Contributor
Posts: 128

Reg: 12-08-08
11-30-17 01:32 AM - Post#2716351    
    In response to Cruzin Okie

  • Cruzin Okie Said:
On 7-14-94 I vapor locked a Piper Comanche. I got to 1000 ft AGL and shut the electric fuel pump off. At that point the engine started loosing power and died. Man did it get quiet until it hit the ground!!!!



Wow! Glad your still with us.That's the kind of quiet a guy can do without.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
12-01-17 03:16 AM - Post#2716503    
    In response to 53sd

Hi BeachB, Octane is not a measure of energy or purity. It simply measuress the resistance to detonation.
Adding alcohol is one method to raise poor petrol stock to a higher Octane rating. But it actually increases volatility, reduces energy potential and is a more aggressive solvent on soft lines etc.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 12-01-17 03:17 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
53Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 273
53Chevy
Loc: Davenport, IA
Reg: 02-18-04
12-01-17 05:08 PM - Post#2716580    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

A few years ago on a trip in Colorado had a big problem with vapor locking. The combination of altitude and temperature was the problem. Planning on going to Arizona this summer and don't want that problem. So, I'm in the process of putting a return gas line in. Puttting a high pressure electric fuel pump at the tank area and return pressure regulator up by the carb. This should keep the fuel circulating back to the tank and cooler. This is like a fuel injection set up. Hope it works!



 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18433
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
12-01-17 05:29 PM - Post#2716582    
    In response to 53Chevy

A solution that a lot of Flathead engine owners have been using for some time.Just don't let that fuel pump over power the float settings.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
0utlaw 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2789
0utlaw
Loc: US East Coast
Reg: 09-10-02
12-01-17 06:20 PM - Post#2716587    
    In response to beachb

Until you solve it, carry a gallon of water to pour on the gas line. And a can of spray start just in case the carb boils dry. The older cars and trucks do not have well ventilated engine compartments which doesn't help the situation. I have used oven foil folded loosely to wrap around the line and filter to keep engine heat away. Not that pretty, works as a temporary fix. In the case I had 2 Summers ago on hot days, especially in slow moving traffic where gas moves slow through the line, it was the mechanical pump losing pressure. Really annoying.....so I know your frustration...there isn't always a good place to pull over.
Jim



 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18433
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
12-01-17 06:46 PM - Post#2716591    
    In response to 0utlaw

Twice when on camping trips with my sister and her husband his 35 Ford acted up. He just cut a cantelope in half and put it over the fuel pump. Worked well. Good thing as we were way out in the boonies in MT., and no traffic there at all.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
12-01-17 08:45 PM - Post#2716608    
    In response to 53Chevy

Hi 53, I have a late model car that was configured like that, possibly as some models had injection and some didn't.

However the reason it worked against vapor-lock is the return line was a union at the carb.
The mechanical pump on the engine was constant flow so fuel went up to the carb and either into it or back down the return line to the tank.

When running the returning fuel was constantly cooling the line. I can't see a return line from a pump being a significant improvement as its the post pump fuel that is likely to percolate in the hot zone.

It's not hard to insulate these parts however we need to know what we are dealing with and pictures help greatly there.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
cbmkr56 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1039
cbmkr56
Age: 62
Loc: Basehor Ks
Reg: 02-11-13
12-02-17 05:27 AM - Post#2716625    
    In response to beachb

As i said before we had this problem all summer, 30 minutes into a drive it would start acting up, This week i did a lot of driving in my original 46 coupe with temps in the 60's and it never happened. This new fuel will not take the heat and these old cars do not like it.
Old trick from years ago that works wood close pins on your gas line will dissipate heat.
Another thing to remember the 49-54 Chevrolet cars hold a lot of heat under the hood.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4233
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
12-02-17 04:41 PM - Post#2716667    
    In response to cbmkr56

Hi CBMKR, Most cars with hoods trap a lot of heat when shut down. We work in celsius but remember the radiator is at/or near boiling and it is not the hottest area by a long way.

The oil is hotter than boiling water most times.

There is a practical reason that hoods were louvered, even though it is more fashion now.
The burnt gasses in the exhaust manifold could be anywhere from 1000* to 1300*C and even higher on a lean burn engine. If you grab your tailpipe after a long run you will probably burn your hand so what do you think the downpipe temp is like?

When you see a pipe glowing on a dyno shot you are looking at between 500-700*C. And that is the external temp of the pipe surface. It also probably running a rich A/F ratio of say 13:1 to make power without damage. If you are jetted lean, or too advanced you will get more heat.

I have set rubber engine mounts on fire using tubular headers and it only required modest revs. All you need to do is pull up and sit still and whoosh.

Again there are things you can do such as fuel line insulation, and heat deflector shielding. But I would always do the basics of making sure the cooling system is working properly, checking the exhaust heat is not locked on and verify the timing and mixtures are correct.

Cheers Kiwi






48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
cbmkr56 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1039
cbmkr56
Age: 62
Loc: Basehor Ks
Reg: 02-11-13
12-02-17 04:45 PM - Post#2716669    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Really



 

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