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Username Post: Stall problem        (Topic#348268)
4oldcars 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 134
4oldcars
Age: 72
Loc: Little River, S C
Reg: 08-26-15
11-18-17 11:47 AM - Post#2714861    

Not being a mechanic, I'm unsure how to proceed. When I stop, the motor dies and is a hard restart. I see that the carb (original one barrel? on original 6) is leaking. Likely my problem? I could have it rebuilt, or, I have a 2 carb Fenton intake manifold (to go with my Fenton split exhaust manifold) and maybe now is the time to buy carbs and go with it? Looking for advice. You youngsters out there, notice I used a "c" in advice. Not an "s".

1953 Bel Air Sport Coupe 235/3 on tree
1971 GMC Jimmy 2 wd 68 Chev front clip
1996 Roadmaster wagon
2000 Black Eldorado


 

Shepherd 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1035

Loc: Lake George, NY
Reg: 11-11-15
11-18-17 11:51 AM - Post#2714862    
    In response to 4oldcars

My opinion, fix the the root cause of the stall issue before changing the intake. That carb is easy to rebuild.



 
50sChevys 
"15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2019
50sChevys
Age: 82
Loc: Central Texas
Reg: 03-23-02
11-18-17 12:01 PM - Post#2714863    
    In response to 4oldcars


Well, why do you have the dual manifolds if your not going to install them? If you have the bucks for the new carbs, now would be a perfect time I would think...

50s Chevys


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-22-17 01:02 AM - Post#2715271    
    In response to 50sChevys

Hi 4oldcars, Carb overflow is usually a failure or dirt in the float valve. My old pick up did this a lot before I swapped in a modern carb.

If your engine is fairly stock then you want two of the smaller bore size carbs used on the 216 or something similar from the aftermarket. Properly rebuilt or repro carbs are my preference.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18212
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
11-22-17 05:29 AM - Post#2715291    
    In response to 50sChevys

  • 50sChevys Said:

Well, why do you have the dual manifolds if your not going to install them? If you have the bucks for the new carbs, now would be a perfect time I would think...


I agree with this line of thinking but (there is always a but) I would try and find the cause of the engine stopping, You need to make sure idle speed is correct, that there are no vacuum leaks, and the car is timed at least to the correct base time. If the carb is a Rochester of the early model with the short top then leaking is a common fault and is hard to correct due to warpage. A rebuild kit for under 20 bucks and a good cleaning may be the answer to the idle problem, a new bowl gasket or two could help solve the leakage problem. We are always quick to jump on what seems to be the problem and start throwing parts at it. Following the basic rules of diagnosis is the way to go.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
4oldcars 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 134
4oldcars
Age: 72
Loc: Little River, S C
Reg: 08-26-15
11-22-17 07:19 AM - Post#2715315    
    In response to 2blu52

Thanx to all. Just can't decide - - -
Has anyone got the twin one set up and how is it?
What carbs are you using and where did you get them? They're priced like they are made out of gold. Kiwi suggested using 216 carbs. They will work on a 235?

1953 Bel Air Sport Coupe 235/3 on tree
1971 GMC Jimmy 2 wd 68 Chev front clip
1996 Roadmaster wagon
2000 Black Eldorado


Edited by 4oldcars on 11-22-17 01:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-22-17 10:01 PM - Post#2715421    
    In response to 4oldcars

Hi 4Oldcars, Kiwi suggested using two new or rebuilt 216 size carbs.

2 x 235 carbs will only really only work on a 261 or very highly modified 235.

The rationale is not complex. The old 216 had a smaller throttle bore diameter. So two smaller carbs give you a better matched volume overall than two stock ones.
They also should be a touch more responsive.

I haven't compared the throttle bores to work out the difference, as personally I use late model twin throat down draft Weber carbs. The Spanish repro's not the Chinese ones.

Feel free to ask questions.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-22-17 10:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18212
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
11-23-17 05:37 AM - Post#2715441    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Stud spacing on 216 carbs as opposed to the spacing on 235 carbs could be a problem. I am not susre what engine is being discussed here.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
wbeaton 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 647
wbeaton
Age: 43
Loc: Hamilton, ON
Reg: 03-07-14
11-23-17 06:07 AM - Post#2715445    
    In response to 2blu52

I use two 216 carbs on my 235. I couldn't be happier with the result. I bought a pair of Carters and rebuilt them with quality kits from a supplier here in Canada. It was quite easy. If you go this route, also buy a unisync to help set them up. The stud spacing is different on the 216 carbs so I filled the holes in my Offenhauser intake and installed new studs at the correct spacing. I used the original exhaust manifold and added a second exhaust port so I could maintain the original heat riser. If you use headers then you will need to add heat to your intake.

1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 Door Sedan
1954 235 with Isky Cam, Shaved Head
Dual Carter YF 787S Carbs on Offenhauser Intake
Split Manifold Dual Exhaust
3 Speed with 3.55 Differential
12V Conversion with Alternator
Pertronix Ignition


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-23-17 11:27 AM - Post#2715486    
    In response to 2blu52

Hi 2Blu52, yes the 216 has a smaller flange size than the 235 as they have a smaller bore.
Something like an SAE 2 vs 3 or something similar.

Having two balanced smaller carbs is far more effective than one large on a long online engine.
It just cost more. The smaller diameters give stronger signals and higher velocities for the same CFM.

But simply doubling the potential CFM with two stock sizes is more overall flow than the stock engine can deal with and the stock carbs will be splitting the air volume so the flow will slow down too much.

I am not saying the 216 carbs, paired, is a perfect 235 size match, or that they are a wonderful carb.
But size wise it is definitely moving in the correct direction on a mild motor and a lot of guys have found they work very well.
This is not a big surprise given that they come from a smaller version of the same engine family and operate in very similar conditions.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-23-17 11:30 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
4oldcars 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 134
4oldcars
Age: 72
Loc: Little River, S C
Reg: 08-26-15
11-24-17 07:06 AM - Post#2715558    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Kiwi - I'm really confused by what you say. I'm leaning toward a set of matched rebuilt carbs from Chevs of the 40's which they say are good for 216 or 235. Good choice? I don't so much about performance. At my age, I'm done performing.

1953 Bel Air Sport Coupe 235/3 on tree
1971 GMC Jimmy 2 wd 68 Chev front clip
1996 Roadmaster wagon
2000 Black Eldorado


 
2blu52 
"17th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 18212
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
11-24-17 01:44 PM - Post#2715590    
    In response to 4oldcars

  • 4oldcars Said:
Kiwi - I'm really confused by what you say. I'm leaning toward a set of matched rebuilt carbs from Chevs of the 40's which they say are good for 216 or 235. Good choice? I don't so much about performance. At my age, I'm done performing.


What I think he is saying is that two 235 carbs are too much carb for the engine, double air intake volume and double fuel to the engine being too rich. The smaller throated 216 carb offers less air flow and there fore less fuel, when balanced and still offer enough improvement to be noticeable.


"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
4oldcars 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 134
4oldcars
Age: 72
Loc: Little River, S C
Reg: 08-26-15
11-25-17 07:10 AM - Post#2715658    
    In response to 2blu52

But will the 216 carb mount to the Fenton manifold? The bolt spread is different?

1953 Bel Air Sport Coupe 235/3 on tree
1971 GMC Jimmy 2 wd 68 Chev front clip
1996 Roadmaster wagon
2000 Black Eldorado


 
wbeaton 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 647
wbeaton
Age: 43
Loc: Hamilton, ON
Reg: 03-07-14
11-25-17 07:28 AM - Post#2715661    
    In response to 4oldcars

  • 4oldcars Said:
But will the 216 carb mount to the Fenton manifold? The bolt spread is different?



If the Fenton is meant for a 235 then you will likely have to modify either the carbs or the manifold to make the 216 carbs work. Either way its not a big deal. The spacing isn't that far off. Its only about 1/16". Some guys elongated the holes to make it fit. I filled the holes in my manifold and then drilled and tapped new studs.

1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 Door Sedan
1954 235 with Isky Cam, Shaved Head
Dual Carter YF 787S Carbs on Offenhauser Intake
Split Manifold Dual Exhaust
3 Speed with 3.55 Differential
12V Conversion with Alternator
Pertronix Ignition


 
4oldcars 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 134
4oldcars
Age: 72
Loc: Little River, S C
Reg: 08-26-15
11-25-17 09:13 AM - Post#2715671    
    In response to wbeaton

You guys have been a great help on this.
Thanx !

1953 Bel Air Sport Coupe 235/3 on tree
1971 GMC Jimmy 2 wd 68 Chev front clip
1996 Roadmaster wagon
2000 Black Eldorado


 
50sChevys 
"15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 2019
50sChevys
Age: 82
Loc: Central Texas
Reg: 03-23-02
11-25-17 11:07 AM - Post#2715687    
    In response to 4oldcars

My two cents worth is this and it’s been done a zillion times. You have a 235 inliner. I wish I had a dollar for every guy that has put dual carbs, that are for a 235 dual intake, on a 235 intake on that engine along with adding headers. As you said...”I’m done with performance” and if it’s nothing but enjoying the look of that dual setup, then go for it! Use the KISS method here. I won’t discount what’s been said about matching this and that concerning theoretical performance. Yes it’s nice to have that cam, pop ups and ignition, but as you said...

50s Chevys


 
wbeaton 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 647
wbeaton
Age: 43
Loc: Hamilton, ON
Reg: 03-07-14
11-25-17 11:32 AM - Post#2715690    
    In response to 50sChevys

These cars are not rocket ships even with dual carbs and exhaust. Any performance gains you can make will be appreciated by you and other drivers. upgrading to a hopped up 235 from my 216 and adding a 3.55 rear was the best thing I could have done to this car. Even my passengers have noticed the difference. JMO

1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 Door Sedan
1954 235 with Isky Cam, Shaved Head
Dual Carter YF 787S Carbs on Offenhauser Intake
Split Manifold Dual Exhaust
3 Speed with 3.55 Differential
12V Conversion with Alternator
Pertronix Ignition


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-26-17 04:59 AM - Post#2715756    
    In response to wbeaton

Hi 4Oldcars, 216,235,and 261 all had different carbs and settings.
The 216 used a smaller SAE flange size than the 235 and 261.

2 235 correct carbs is too much for a near stock 235 and could be troublesome if the 261 didn't have some other work.

When you run an aftermarket 2x1BBL manifold on these engines they are not progressive. They both work at the same time.

These engines don't normally spin above 3000 rpm, their torque peak, in normal road use so they do not require anything like the CFM that most SBC use.

Most guys seem happy with the pair of 216 size carbs. But I wouldn't be surprised if you could run a pair of even smaller carbs.

The aftermarket supplies 2 x 2BBl kits using the Weber that was on a pinto 2.0L
The carbs are reproductions. The Spanish ones are OK the Chinese ones not. Guess which ones you guys get?

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27078
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
11-26-17 05:26 PM - Post#2715836    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

  • Bel Air kiwi Said:
....The aftermarket supplies 2 x 2BBl kits using the Weber that was on a pinto 2.0L
The carbs are reproductions. The Spanish ones are OK the Chinese ones not. Guess which ones you guys get?....


Kiwi, the only stock Pinto engines I have seen in the US were 2.3/140 displacement. I think the same 2.3 engine was also used in the M-II here. Does the 2.3 use the same carb as the 2.0 or something similar to it? My M-II was a V-6 and I have never owned a Pinto, so I am not familiar with what either the 2.0 or the 2.3 carb would look like.

Ray


Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
Ryan53 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 31

Loc: South Dakota
Reg: 07-15-16
11-26-17 07:11 PM - Post#2715853    
    In response to 4oldcars

  • 4oldcars Said:
Not being a mechanic, I'm unsure how to proceed. When I stop, the motor dies and is a hard restart. I see that the carb (original one barrel? on original 6) is leaking. Likely my problem? I could have it rebuilt.....



I swapped out my original Rochester for a Carter YF 788s and between that and the pertronix my drivability has been greatly improved. Only thing I lost was the auto choke, I would keep it simple, unless you want the look of dual carbs.

1953 Chevy Belair 2dr sedan, 235 3speed 6volt


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-27-17 01:13 PM - Post#2715949    
    In response to raycow

Hi Ray, the so called "Pinto" engine was a world series design. I believe it came as small as 1.3L but the common sizes are 1.6L, and 2.0L and the 2.0 was huge volume world wide. (Its a tax level in many countries for vehicles.)

The 2.3L was a US only variant and has a different head. From memory it has one more cam bearing or something similar and doesn't swap.
Basis of the Esslinger midget engine.

You also had blow through turbo models, where as the racing variants in Europe went twin cam head, both NA and Turbo. Sierra in Europe Merkur in the USA.

I am not sure what carb you guys got on the 2.3 as we didn't see it. The 2.0L Weber was not exclusive to Ford and a thirty year old carb would need a full rebuild by now. Early Mercury Capri's may have a 2.0L


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-27-17 01:14 PM - Post#2715950    
    In response to raycow

Hi Ray, the so called "Pinto" engine was a world series design. I believe it came as small as 1.3L but the common sizes are 1.6L, and 2.0L and the 2.0 was huge volume world wide. (Its a tax level in many countries for vehicles.)

The 2.3L was a US only variant and has a different head. From memory it has one more cam bearing or something similar and doesn't swap.
Basis of the Esslinger midget engine.

You also had blow through turbo models, where as the racing variants in Europe went twin cam head, both NA and Turbo. Sierra in Europe Merkur in the USA.

I am not sure what carb you guys got on the 2.3 as we didn't see it. The 2.0L Weber was not exclusive to Ford and a thirty year old carb would need a full rebuild by now. Early Mercury Capri's may have a 2.0L

Calling that model Weber a Pinto carb is just like calling a master cylinder a corvette one.
it simply identifies what size and fit it is.

What these carbs bring to the table is that they were made buy the world's premier carb maker, and they made millions for a wide range of OE manufacturers and aftermarket racing variants.

So they are far more sophisticated and efficient carbs than 50's single carb technology. If you like they have more steps and are more flexible in tuning.

But the big plus is simply that they are small progressive two barrels. So you can have the advantage of having a progressive two barrel and twin carbs at the same time.

Given one liter is 61 cubic inches. The 2.0L pinto was 122" and the 235" about 3.85L.
So that puts the Pinto at just over half the size of the 235, however there is more to it than that as the OHC on the Pinto means it has a far higher rev range, and also a greatly superior porting and chamber design.

As the Pinto must work from idle at about 600 rpm and run to 6000 rpm in standard form it had to have progressive carburetion. So it has to have a far more complex and expensive 2bbl carburetor to meet those parameters.

What these pair of small primaries give is great sensitivity in the lower rev range. As well as giving better runner consistency and distribution by simply having two carbs.
They also have power/economy valves, PCV Fittings, and any choke style you want. Cable, Electric, and water.

With twin carbs when you open the throttle up you have two accelerator pumps and the secondaries mean you have enough carburettion to run the engine to destruction. However for most of the time the engine will just be toddling around on the primaries.

A US made twin barrel would also work if you only want to run one carb, as internally they are normally too big to run as a pair. The Weber 38/38 DGAS would be the single two barrel for a 235, but they are rare and pricey so I just used a late Stromberg from an Aussie I6.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-27-17 01:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27078
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
11-28-17 02:48 AM - Post#2716050    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Kiwi, thank you for your detailed explanation about the progressive 2 barrel carb. That has to be a huge improvement over the stock Rochester.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-28-17 05:23 PM - Post#2716182    
    In response to raycow

Hi Ray, thanks. The advantage for us is that the down draft progressive 2BBL Weber design is fairly standardized across a wide range of vehicles.

So they go from quite small 26/28 up to 38/38 in bore sizes for OE applications.
So that is primaries as small as 1" up to 1 1/2".
The common one is the 32/36 DGV and that's the one we get from 2.0L engines.

I think the US pinto used a Ford/Holley 2BBL.

Also we had variable choke carbs like the SU series and the CD Stromberg which came in a wide size of bore sizes, but were sidedraft carbs.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 11-28-17 06:02 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3804
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
11-28-17 08:31 PM - Post#2716213    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi 4oldcars, I might have got carried away with the technical side but for your example the aftermarket twin carb manifolds are correct in the port line up, but have an SAE 3 at 1 15/16" carb spacing when if you want to run old carbs on the road you want the SAE 2 at 1 11/16".

That means you need to have the supplied manifold studs removed. The holes plugged/welded and then it needs to be accurately re-drilled to the smaller spacing. This is annoying given what you pay for the manifolds in the first place. I don't understand why they don't wise up and offer them the correct way for road use.

If you go with later 2bbl carbs from a Langdon's kit this is not a big deal as they use adapters anyway.

These re-pop manifolds do not work on a 216. They are wrong on so many levels.

If you want to find a later model single barrel to fit your stock manifold there are lots of them with the SAE 3 pattern but as I said two will drown your engine.

Also if you want to adapt a progressive single 2bbl I can give you the approximate size carbs you need for 216/235/ or 261.

Cheers Kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 

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