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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: Help cool my BBC        (Topic#347587)
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-09-17 12:09 PM - Post#2710299    

She is running a little warm at times around 200

I already have an aluminum radiator with two fans attached directly to the radiator. Fan switch is 185.

I am running a 185* thermostat. Right now I am running straight water.

Other than oil cooler and tranny cooler (which is plumbed through the radiator) what other things can I try?

I know this has been discussed but the forum doesn't have much of a search function.

Thanks



 




Tri5man 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3514
Tri5man
Loc: Possums Crotch, KY
Reg: 06-26-07
10-09-17 12:19 PM - Post#2710302    
    In response to farm rat

When does your engine run hot? Low or high speed? Remember the cooling rule of thumb. Runs hot at low speed - not enough fan. Runs hot at highway speed - not enough radiator.

Is this a new problem after something was recently done or an existing problem?

Gary



 
acardon 
Ultra Senior Member
Posts: 10893
acardon
Loc: DFW TEXAS
Reg: 03-25-05
10-09-17 12:37 PM - Post#2710304    
    In response to farm rat

Fans fastened directly to the radiator pull air only directly in front of the fans, leaving a lot of the radiator core with little or no air flow, depending on the speed, which is important to trouble shooting, as mentioned. A shorud will provide air flow through the entire core.

Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (driving)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)


 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-09-17 12:39 PM - Post#2710305    
    In response to Tri5man

somewhat an ongoing thing.

I am running about as big of a set of fans I can get on the radiator. I need to double check and make sure both are running now that I think about it, but I am pretty sure they are.

I thought I had it under control at right around 185.

It's a work truck around the farm so it sees a lot of idle speeds

Here is a link to my build. I did end up putting a 750cfm Carter Performance carb on it



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3808
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
10-09-17 01:57 PM - Post#2710316    
    In response to farm rat

Hi Farm rat, paired small fans are not particularly effective as they have a big dead spot in the middle and relatively short blades.
Although sometimes that's all that fits on a modern x-flow radiator.

If you have the space run as big a diameter fan as you can, as high as you can on the radiator. A shroud normally greatly improves low speed driving fan performance, and as a previous poster mentioned if you are having problems on the open road your cooling system is too small.

Also don't believe the CFM readings of electric fans, that is normally a free flow no restriction situation, not stuck on a radiator.

If you need a full shroud be aware its the barrel shaped part that improves the blade end spillage losses and that flat boxes need venting for high speed driving.

Cheers kiwi



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars.

And when it was laid to waste, they called it peace.


 
grumpyvette 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts: 17111
grumpyvette
Age: 69
Loc: FLORIDA USA
Reg: 03-16-01
10-09-17 02:56 PM - Post#2710319    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

tips on reducing the heat of your engine coolant,



buy and add a bottle, this stuff allows the micro surface contact of water inside the cylinder heads to allow a bit more efficient heat transfer rate, its no miracle, product , but its generally good for a 7-9 degree reduction in coolant heat.
you might also consider adding an oil cooler as oil does a great deal of the heat transfer inside any engine, thus reducing oil temperatures tends to reduce coolant temperatures.
Id also point out that,adding an auxiliary oil and/or trans mission fluid cooler with a powered fan, too the car, helps remove heat far more effectively and can remove a great deal of heat load from the radiator well before the coolant in the engine needs to deal with it



related

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?thr...


IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!


 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-10-17 05:15 AM - Post#2710383    
    In response to grumpyvette

Couple of questions.

Has anyone used the Lucas additive? I haven't seen the Redline product although I am sure I can order it, but the Lucas product is on the shelves here.

Would running a heavier viscosity oil help?

Would a little more timing advance and a little richer idle setting help?

I am not opposed to running an oil cooler, but not sure where I would route it around the headers.
I don't see myself running a cooler with a fan.
1. I have enough electrical issues now.
2. The truck is subject to going off road as I use it for logging.



 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3219

Reg: 04-15-05
10-10-17 07:17 AM - Post#2710393    
    In response to farm rat

Lots of info not here about the setup, and the link doesn't work.

What type, and how is the ignition set up?

Electric fans, absolutely useless except on high temp emissions engines that need 210+ deg/F.

What is needed is the right timing setup, ENGINE driven, large diameter mechanical can, large shroud, NO "under drive" pulley sets.

It's a work truck, not an emissions, nor race vehicle, use the right stuff on it.



 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-10-17 08:36 AM - Post#2710403    
    In response to IgnitionMan

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?ti...

Link again.

Standard GM HEI type billet dist.

What do you mean about large can?




 
japete92 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 913
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
10-10-17 11:53 AM - Post#2710417    
    In response to farm rat

  • farm rat Said:
She is running a little warm at times around 200

I already have an aluminum radiator with two fans attached directly to the radiator. Fan switch is 185.

I am running a 185* thermostat. Right now I am running straight water.

Other than oil cooler and tranny cooler (which is plumbed through the radiator) what other things can I try?

I know this has been discussed but the forum doesn't have much of a search function.

Thanks



'She is running a little warm at times around 200'

' ...it sees a lot of idle speeds'

If it hits 200 only while lingering at idle, I think that's rather normal.

If it drops back to 180 'ish' while moving forward, I'd leave it alone.





 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3219

Reg: 04-15-05
10-10-17 12:29 PM - Post#2710423    
    In response to farm rat

INITIAL timing?

IDLE timing?

With VACUUM ADVANCE disconnected (hose plugged), how many TOTAL DEGREES of timing (combination of INITIAL and MECHANICAL ADVANCE degrees of timing added together)?

VACUUM ADVANCE set up to restrict the amount of degrees?

If so, HOW MANY?

What VACUUM ADVANCE sourcing, PORTED, or FULL MANIFOLD vacuum?

Under the rotor, there are two weights, what number is on them?

Under the rotor, there is one scroll plate the weights move, what number is on it?



 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-10-17 01:25 PM - Post#2710429    
    In response to IgnitionMan

  • IgnitionMan Said:
INITIAL timing?

IDLE timing?

With VACUUM ADVANCE disconnected (hose plugged), how many TOTAL DEGREES of timing (combination of INITIAL and MECHANICAL ADVANCE degrees of timing added together)?

VACUUM ADVANCE set up to restrict the amount of degrees?

If so, HOW MANY?

What VACUUM ADVANCE sourcing, PORTED, or FULL MANIFOLD vacuum?

Under the rotor, there are two weights, what number is on them?

Under the rotor, there is one scroll plate the weights move, what number is on it?



Sorry for my ignorance, some of this stuff is still new/confusing to me. I'll get you the info and either PM you or post it here.

The VA is not restricted as of now. I am running full manifold vacuum (lower port on the carb).

I am going to redo the timing since I figured out how to use my degreed light

Bear with me guys, I always had someone I took this stuff to, but now I pretty much live out in the sticks and there is no one around for miles. That's why I come here with my basically freshman questions.




 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3219

Reg: 04-15-05
10-10-17 04:07 PM - Post#2710444    
    In response to farm rat

I never implied any sort of ignorance. You are doing just fine, you are learning.

As far as vacuum advance, it does need to be stopped down if it gives over 12 degrees, and even on some setups that want 10, 8 added.

Example: INITIAL TIMING, 12 deg/BTDC, you could add as much as another 12, but, mostly 10. Engines like between 18 and 24 degrees IDLE timing. Getting there is the trick to it.

To get the 10 vacuum advance degrees, the pull pin on the advance needs to have a stop made, or a Crane stop added, to restrict the pin pull down to .110/.112 inch, which gives 10 crankshaft degrees of timing.

This restricted degrees would allow the vacuum advance to do what it should, correctly, add timing when the vacuum is high, and load is nil, to light. Easy starting, and LOWER ENGINE TEMPERATURES are key results from doing it that way, along with better fuel economy and performance.

If you want a complete pictures and instructions package on how to do it, absolutely free of charge and with no strings, just stuff to help you get it done right, ask for one, use this email:

gmvacuumadvancemodificati ons@gmail.com

AS FAR AS A DIAL-BACK FEATURE ON A TIMING LIGHT, IT IS NOT FOR USE WITH REGULAR IGNITION SYSTEMS THAT HAVE MECHANICAL/VACUUM ADVANCE SYSTEMS.

The dial-back feature is ONLY for ignition systems that feed back into things like an EFI computer, one that a computer handles the timing past an initial reference setting, via loads of sensors and gizmo's. These dial-back features are literally a computer LAG TIME computation delay in the reading of the spark, to let the timing feature in the computer do its job, and that requires a 'lag time' to accomplish.

If you want to do this the right way, leave the dial-back feature off, and mark the dampener for more degrees, read the damper degrees, NOT a dial-back inaccuracy.

Yes, there will be all those people here that will call me an idiot fir saying the above, that there are timing lights that have dial-back features for regular ignition systems. But, use common sense, why would anyone need a lag time to compute spark on a system that doesn't use A LAG TIME?

Answer is, IT DON'T. No computation time needed, no lag needed to compute what ISN'T there, no dial-back computation lag needed.

But, then, I do ignition systems, EVERY day, most people that know it all...DON'T.



 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-11-17 05:33 AM - Post#2710496    
    In response to IgnitionMan

Ok so I am even more confused. How do you determine total timing?

The articles I have read (several) say to dial back to around 36 degrees and move the distributor to where the timing mark is on 0.
Obviously with the VA unhooked and the line plugged.



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3928

Reg: 12-29-02
10-11-17 08:08 AM - Post#2710516    
    In response to farm rat

Just use your timing light and see what you get. Just know that a cheap timing light can have an error as you use the dial back feature. That lag time explanation makes no sense to me either. Putting an inductive pickup on the #1 plug wire and measuring the timing is done EXACTLY the same way regardless of the engine being fuel injected or not.



 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3219

Reg: 04-15-05
10-11-17 09:06 AM - Post#2710527    
    In response to farm rat

MARK THE DAMPENER (NOT yelling, just emphatic).

If you had requested the vacuum advance pictures package I offer, you'd have already had a complete pictures and text outline on how to temporarily, non-permanently degree the dampener, and check timing the right way, NOT WITH A DIAL-BACK feature in use.

Not upset with this, but, there is more info you could have already had, to ingest and learn from.

(YELLING, again) DIAL-BACK FEATURES ON TIMING LIGHTS, ALL OF THEM, ARE NOT FOR MECHANICAL/VACUUM ADVANCE IGNITION SYSTEMS, DIAL-BACK IS ONLY FOR EFI/COMPUTER TIMED IGNITION SYSTEMS.



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3928

Reg: 12-29-02
10-11-17 10:43 AM - Post#2710536    
    In response to IgnitionMan

  • IgnitionMan Said:
(YELLING, again) DIAL-BACK FEATURES ON TIMING LIGHTS, ALL OF THEM, ARE NOT FOR MECHANICAL/VACUUM ADVANCE IGNITION SYSTEMS, DIAL-BACK IS ONLY FOR EFI/COMPUTER TIMED IGNITION SYSTEMS.



Want to give a reason that actually makes sense?



 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-11-17 10:46 AM - Post#2710537    
    In response to IgnitionMan

I actually requested and received it some time ago and had a fair amount of correspondence. Is that person you I guess?



 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3219

Reg: 04-15-05
10-11-17 05:21 PM - Post#2710578    
    In response to 65_Impala

Don't start your usual bull. NOBODY NEEDS, NOR WANTS ANY OF IT.

It is because most people go blindly back to the people that do not know about dial-back being only for EFI/computerized ignition systems, NOT for ones with mechanical/vacuum advance.



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3928

Reg: 12-29-02
10-11-17 07:59 PM - Post#2710593    
    In response to IgnitionMan

The only bull is the nonsense reasoning you posted about dial back lights....

Both pre and post efi ignitions fire the plug before TDC. The timing is measured the same in degrees before top dead center no matter what causes the timing advance.

Most all of the factory systems are single spark each time a cylinder fires. Hell, GM even used the same basic ignition parts on EFI engines as the pre-EFI HEI ignitions.

A timing light uses a pick-up on the plug wire. It is not hooked to any part of the electrical system which fires the coil, hence it does not care what caused the coil to fire. The light doesn't know the difference between points firing the coil or an EFI computer firing the coil.

So, claiming the dial back feature would work on an EFI controlled HEI but would not work on a mechanically controlled HEI because the light somehow interacts with the EFI computer makes no sense.






 
SleeperSS 
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
SleeperSS
Loc: Spanaway, Wa
Reg: 10-17-04
10-12-17 06:41 AM - Post#2710622    
    In response to 65_Impala

...just my .02. Somehow this went from cooling to ignition. Without knowning the exact setup of his cooling system, the rest doesn't matter. It appears the fans have no shroud. That's an easy fix. Who knows how the radiator is mounted...is it sealed all the way around to the core to force air thru and not around the radiator? As odd as it sounds, aluminum cookie sheets make great inexpensive shrouds. Even with dual fans, there should be enough room to install a couple of flaps the are closed at low speeds forcing the air to go thru the fans. At hwy speeds, the airflow forces the flaps open allowing more unrestricted air to flow thru the shroud.

Some pics from the op would help diagnose his problem.

U.S.C.G. "So others may live"

'96 S-10 SS
'02 BlaZeR2





 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-12-17 08:51 AM - Post#2710637    
    In response to SleeperSS

I didn't mean to start an online pissing match here.

SS, I brought up the timing question as I have read that can cause some cooling issues as well as too lean of an idle mixture.

The radiator is an aluminum replacement for the stock part and is sealed at the core support as much as the original one.

Initially I was going to stay with the stock fan on the water pump but I kept the late model (1991) serpentine system on my older (1982) K10 and the shroud would not clear. There is not an abundance of salvage yards around here with older stuff to try to find one that would work, so I opted to go aluminum with electric fans. In retrospect I probably should have gotten the shroud to go with it as well.

Back to the timing issue. We have been going at it the old fashioned way and doing by feel and how it starts . I know that's not the way and I want to correct that. We have used a light and we are at about 12-13 BTDC at idle.

Believe me I have spent hours and hours and hours studying on this. I built the motor my self, made a few minor mistakes along the way, but it basically came out the way I wanted.

BUT it is the flipping timing thing that has been my nemesis!!!! And, the more I read on it the more confused I get. Look up total timing and practically everyone says to use the dial back method. I have Dave's information he sends out free of charge and it is good stuff albeit a little more in depth.



 
SleeperSS 
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
SleeperSS
Loc: Spanaway, Wa
Reg: 10-17-04
10-12-17 08:54 AM - Post#2710638    
    In response to farm rat

Have fun with your timing...but you still need a shroud that covers the entire radiator and is sealed.

U.S.C.G. "So others may live"

'96 S-10 SS
'02 BlaZeR2





 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-12-17 08:54 AM - Post#2710639    
    In response to farm rat

I still have the old shroud. I am thinking I might try to cut it down so it will clear the serpentine system but I don't know how well that would work around the dual fans and I would hate to screw up a sellable part.



 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3219

Reg: 04-15-05
10-12-17 09:02 AM - Post#2710640    
    In response to SleeperSS

Well, cooling the engine has a few more areas of concern past simple radiator, water pump and fan sections, one very important factor is the ignition system, and setting it up incorrectly, helps immensely in causing engine OVERHEATING when not properly set up. That is proven fact.

So, I like to get stuff fixed right, and, not even the right fan, radiator, water pump, etc., setup will overcome an incorrect ignition timing parameter. Also proven fact.

Ignition setup is the FIRST area to get right in attaining correct cooling system operation, others go on from there, like carburetion issues, etc. that is why I wanted to make sure it was good to go for the engine in question. There are parameters to get right FIRST, not after all else has been changed, with no positive results.

Neither is setting timing with a timing light feature that is not compatible with the ignition system being used, no matter whom says different. That is also painful fact 65_Impala, and some few others, those others, with the very best of intentions, steadfastly refuse to accept, but, is still FACT.

As far as the ONE person here that CONSTANTLY attacks me, with NO provocation, 65_Impala, I REFUSE to carry on a battle of wits and intelligence with a completely arrogant, extremely ignorant and totally wrong 65_Impala.

I have absolutely NO idea what 85_Impala's problem is, but, I am absolutely sure that NOBODY here, and certainly not myself, needs, nor has ever needed/wanted any of his never-ending bull and dead wrong "advice". No-one here deserves any of it, either. But, he gets away with it, EVERY TIME, with NO resolution to the problems he creates for not only myself, but for others he openly harasses.

We notice that 65_Impala has done NOTHING to help farm rat to get this cooling issue resolved in this topic, he has only posted two more of his constant attacks upon me.

farm rat, you have my email address, if you would care to continue without the bull created by that one board problem person, please feel free to continue it with me, I will help, the right way. Lets get it fixed, sir.



 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-12-17 10:53 AM - Post#2710652    
    In response to IgnitionMan

Thanks Dave



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3928

Reg: 12-29-02
10-12-17 01:14 PM - Post#2710666    
    In response to IgnitionMan

  • IgnitionMan Said:
Well, cooling the engine has a few more areas of concern past simple radiator, water pump and fan sections, one very important factor is the ignition system, and setting it up incorrectly, helps immensely in causing engine OVERHEATING when not properly set up. That is proven fact.

So, I like to get stuff fixed right, and, not even the right fan, radiator, water pump, etc., setup will overcome an incorrect ignition timing parameter. Also proven fact.

Ignition setup is the FIRST area to get right in attaining correct cooling system operation, others go on from there, like carburetion issues, etc. that is why I wanted to make sure it was good to go for the engine in question. There are parameters to get right FIRST, not after all else has been changed, with no positive results.

Neither is setting timing with a timing light feature that is not compatible with the ignition system being used, no matter whom says different. That is also painful fact 65_Impala, and some few others, those others, with the very best of intentions, steadfastly refuse to accept, but, is still FACT.

As far as the ONE person here that CONSTANTLY attacks me, with NO provocation, 65_Impala, I REFUSE to carry on a battle of wits and intelligence with a completely arrogant, extremely ignorant and totally wrong 65_Impala.

I have absolutely NO idea what 85_Impala's problem is, but, I am absolutely sure that NOBODY here, and certainly not myself, needs, nor has ever needed/wanted any of his never-ending bull and dead wrong "advice". No-one here deserves any of it, either. But, he gets away with it, EVERY TIME, with NO resolution to the problems he creates for not only myself, but for others he openly harasses.

We notice that 65_Impala has done NOTHING to help farm rat to get this cooling issue resolved in this topic, he has only posted two more of his constant attacks upon me.

farm rat, you have my email address, if you would care to continue without the bull created by that one board problem person, please feel free to continue it with me, I will help, the right way. Lets get it fixed, sir.




You post nonsense info and then make it personal with your crying when you get questioned about it. You need to take off the training pants and put big boy pants on. Post good info that makes sense if you have it.

The simple fact is that tons of people SUCCESSFULLY use good dial back lights on mechanical ignition systems.



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3928

Reg: 12-29-02
10-12-17 01:24 PM - Post#2710668    
    In response to farm rat

  • farm rat Said:
We have used a light and we are at about 12-13 BTDC at idle.



Now plug the vacuum hose in with the timing light on it and make sure the vacuum advance is working. You should see the mark move further BTDC, around double the amount BTDC compared to it being unplugged. If the vacuum advance is working then your overheating at idle is not a timing issue.

If you're having idle cooling issues the total advance is irrelevant because you're not using any mechanical advance at idle.

Is your rad and fans all a factory setup?



 
farm rat 
Contributor
Posts: 106

Reg: 09-13-16
10-12-17 02:00 PM - Post#2710673    
    In response to 65_Impala

  • 65_Impala Said:
  • farm rat Said:
We have used a light and we are at about 12-13 BTDC at idle.



Now plug the vacuum hose in with the timing light on it and make sure the vacuum advance is working. You should see the mark move further BTDC, around double the amount BTDC compared to it being unplugged. If the vacuum advance is working then your overheating at idle is not a timing issue.

If you're having idle cooling issues the total advance is irrelevant because you're not using any mechanical advance at idle.

Is your rad and fans all a factory setup?



See post #1 on the fan set up, no shroud right now




 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3928

Reg: 12-29-02
10-12-17 02:06 PM - Post#2710674    
    In response to farm rat

  • farm rat Said:
See post #1 on the fan set up, no shroud right now





Your post 1 was rather lacking on details like what rad and what fans.

The no shroud works sometimes with good fans, but you have a much better chance of success with a shroud.



 




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