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Username Post: what is this box thing on the drivers side of the engine bay?        (Topic#346360)
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
08-06-17 11:19 AM - Post#2703041    
    In response to sidworks

To make things easier for my self and for everyone else, I'm going to film a video of the linkage, zbar/rods moving as the pedal is being pressed and released.

My brother has a pretty high quality phone camera so I can get some good footage and close ups.

Might be a while before I post the video though. But I think it will be helpful.

My 72 year old grandfather thinks filming it all would be a great idea as well.

My grandfather worked on automatic cars when he was in his teens and 20s. But he hasn't touched them since his late 20s due to a heart attack and health problems that he developed around age 30, like chronic back pain.

He wasn't even aware of the zbar and never noticed that. Because he was more familiar with automatic cars. I don't think he ever worked with mechanical linkages or Manuel cars or trucks at all.

So he forgot a lot of what he formerly knew and went on to do different things in his life.

Needles


Edited by Eric132 on 08-07-17 06:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
bobschevytrucks.com Ecklers LMC Trucks

sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
08-06-17 12:07 PM - Post#2703045    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

so you do not understand it???????????????
it is 3 sets of levers with 2 rods between them. press the 1st and the rest will follow and the
clutch disc will be free of pressure. 1st lever id the clutch pedal assy, then the z/bar and 3rd is the throw out arm that levers on a pivot ball. simple physics but everything has to be aligned properly to make it work efficiently' the way that you have it now works partially in principle, but not practically and efficiently as the other as you seem to have a problem disengaging the clutch when it is needed to be.
ron


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
08-06-17 12:59 PM - Post#2703047    
    In response to sidworks

I'll take a look at that when I take a look at the truk again.

Thanks for posting photos to help me understand a bit better.

Especially the one where you show the clutch pedal to rod interaction and how the pedal should make the rod move upwards instead of downwards.



Needles


Edited by Eric132 on 08-06-17 01:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
08-06-17 01:23 PM - Post#2703052    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

I think I finally figured it how the sm 465 bullet proof tranmsisson got destroyed in my truck, the linkage was put in wrong by an a guy who took on a job that was too big for him to do correctly.

As you guys have suggested to me and have spotted in my photos.

Because sm465's can apparently take a ton of abuse, but pretty much every gear on mine was in real bad shape.

The entire top portion of the trans where the gear shift goes had to be replaced on mine...

Needles


Edited by Eric132 on 08-06-17 01:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
08-06-17 02:02 PM - Post#2703063    
    In response to sidworks

am i wrong or correct, will installing linkage incorrectly damage a transmission?

does this mean it was wasted money to have my tranny rebuilt?

Needles


Edited by Eric132 on 08-06-17 02:04 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
08-06-17 02:24 PM - Post#2703072    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

the linkage cannot hurt the trans. it would be the operator trying to force the trans to shift with ill fitting linkage. I can shift that trans all day without having to use the clutch except for starting and stopping and I can get around that also if one has to.
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
08-06-17 04:40 PM - Post#2703093    
    In response to sidworks

question for Ron and Ray, Why does the brake pedal and the clutch pedal match? they look the same like they belong together.

Ron, you've seen the pic of the pedals and how the brake pedal and clutch pedal look pretty much the same.

can you explain this?

because me and Ray concluded that it was highly likely an automatic truck with a Powerglide transmission. with all the clues that the truck has given.

Needles


Edited by Eric132 on 08-06-17 04:44 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27090
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
08-06-17 05:12 PM - Post#2703098    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

If the PO got a clutch and brake pedal assembly from whatever donor truck it came from, it is normal for the pedals to match each other. There is no reason to assume that you have the original 62 brake pedal.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
08-06-17 05:53 PM - Post#2703104    
    In response to raycow

they more than likely are all the same from year to year. same brake pedal standard trans or a/trans
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
beagrizzly 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1769
beagrizzly
Age: 67
Loc: south texas
Reg: 08-04-12
08-08-17 08:11 AM - Post#2703357    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

The only trucks (in that year range 60-66)that came with a different brake pedal were the rare ones with power brakes. All the others had the small pedals, just like the clutch pedal.

IF YOU'RE GONNA BE A BEAR..................



 
jktucker92 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 108
jktucker92
Reg: 02-05-17
08-11-17 02:25 PM - Post#2703796    
    In response to beagrizzly

At one point, I put a NV3500 in my '65 in place of a SM420. The NV3500 had a hydraulic clutch, so I converted to the '62 hydraulic setup to make that work. I can confirm that the '62 hydraulic pedal is considerably different than the '65 mechanical linkage pedal. When at rest, the '62 hydraulic pedal has an arm that is nearly vertical so that it can push the master cylinder rod toward the firewall. The '65 mechanical linkage arm is more horizontal so that it can push the mechanical linkage downward at a 45 degree angle.
If the PO tried to use a '62 pedal with the rest of the linkage from a '63-66, it wouldn't work. I'm surprised anybody would get to that point and drive the truck, but I've seen worse.



 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
08-12-17 04:07 PM - Post#2703920    
    In response to raycow

Ray, you have decades of experience.

Can you explain why when we press the clutch pedal 2 times and then try, it goes into 1st gear and reverse. Are we manually aligning something when we do this clutch trick?

This clutch trick will last for a couple of shifts and then it refuses to go into 1st gear and reverse again and we have to repeat the process over again.

So again, are we manually aligning something when we press the pedal twice before trying to go into 1st gear and reverse?

Needles


Edited by Eric132 on 08-12-17 04:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
08-12-17 04:25 PM - Post#2703922    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

perhaps it is just doing it from memory as it use to have a hydraulic clutch. It could be like when someone looses a leg and they still feel things in their foot. the clutch may feel like there may be some air in the line so one has to pump it twice to work.
that extra push may push over a rough spot in the linkage or when that part of the zbar comes forward it may be hanging on something
you know that there is a problem with the linkage. talking anymore is not going to fix it.
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


Edited by sidworks on 08-12-17 04:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27090
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
08-12-17 06:15 PM - Post#2703938    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

You might have what I would call "tooth block" for lack of a better term. This can happen when the two gears aren't properly aligned for meshing and the teeth just butt up against each other. Letting the clutch pedal up and pushing it down again can cause one of the gears to turn just enough for the teeth to line up so they can mesh. I run into this fairly often on my daily driver, which is not synchronized in reverse.

Unfortunately, my "decades of experience" do not qualify me to diagnose at a distance a problem I can't personally see or get my hands on. Because of your obviously screwed up linkage, there could be something entirely different happening in your situation.

I STRONGLY recommend that you sort out your clutch linkage issues before you do anything else. After you get the linkage cleaned up, you may find that your shifting problems have gone away.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
11-27-17 02:37 PM - Post#2715956    
    In response to sidworks

I already told Ray but I wanted to let you know as well. Let me know if I'm incorrect.

We took our truck to a clutch speciality shop in Sacramento and they looked at everything linkage related, even the Z/bar and bell housing and they said everything is properly installed.

I told Ray that when we push the clutch in, the rod from the firewall travels downwards and then it travels upwards when releasing the clutch. Ray told me that this is correct.

Again let me know what you think based on our past discussions. Could the clutch specialist shop be wrong?


Also we experienced the same issue without even using the clutch with the engine off, it wouldn't go into granny low gear or reverse.

Needles


 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
11-27-17 08:45 PM - Post#2716030    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

they see a system there that may be rational to them. they may not be familiar with the proper linkage that was designed for the 63 - 66 trucks.
you say that you took it to a clutch specialty shop and they checked it out.. besides looking at it, did they roadtest and say it had a problem or did they give it the good operating seal of approval.
if it wasn't functioning properly what was their comment as I imagine that they charged you for their services
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
11-28-17 05:56 AM - Post#2716066    
    In response to sidworks

They road tested it as well besides looking at everything.

The shop we took it to gets a ton of business everyday so they don't charge much to look at a vehicle. They inspect all kinds of cars and trucks of different years.

The owner of the shop said that it isn't possible to install a Z/bar backwards and have it work. He said it wouldn't even function properly to shift through the gears if it was installed backwards.

Is the guy wrong?

Needles


Edited by Eric_Gary132 on 11-28-17 07:44 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
11-28-17 08:33 AM - Post#2716086    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

1
"They road tested it as well besides looking at everything."
as I asked you above; did they find any problem at all with how your clutch works either stationary or under power? they had the real thing physically in their control so what was their conclusion?

2
"The owner of the shop said that it isn't possible to install a Z/bar backwards and have it work. He said it wouldn't even function properly to shift through the gears if it was installed backwards.

Is the guy wrong? "
who in this thread said that the zbar was installed backwards????
ron


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
11-28-17 08:59 AM - Post#2716090    
    In response to sidworks

this 1st picture is your Zbar in your truck. pls not again the position of the lever arms. one has been relocated


the next zbar is one that hasn't been modified

ron


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
11-28-17 09:28 AM - Post#2716092    
    In response to sidworks

The shop concluded that it must be the transmission causing problems.

But like I said, they're not 1960 to 1966 chevy truck specialist. They take in all kinds of trucks and cars from new to old ones.

About the zbar, I thought you said it was wacko or put in backwards somewhere? Because you mentioned that the rods are going in reverse,

but I asked Ray and he told me that the rod from the firewall should be moving downwards when the clutch is being pressed in, which is what ours does.

What exactly are you proposing is incorrect about the zbar in the truck?


Needles


Edited by Eric_Gary132 on 11-28-17 09:29 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
11-28-17 10:02 AM - Post#2716098    
    In response to sidworks

Ron, can you take pictures of a 1963 to 1966 zbar set up that is already installed in your actual truck??? I'd appreciate a couple of photos from underneath your truck that shows how the z/bar should look. And also from above in the engine bay. If you don't have a 63 to 66 truck can you take photos of a friend's or someone you know 63 to 66 truck of the zbar from above and underneath?? It'd be very helpful.

If you can't do that, can you at least hold the zbar in your hand in the position it's supposed to be in when it is installed in a 63 to 66 truck when we look at it from the fender?? And could you connect some kind of rod to it as well when holding it in the correct position so it looks like it's in an actual truck.

But I'd really appreciate it if you could take photos of your zbar set up in your truck and how it should look when everything is hooked up.

We'd really like to get this resolved.

Also can you suggest books for me to look at that shows proper mechanical linkage installation?? We tried looking around but couldn't find anything.



Needles


Edited by Eric_Gary132 on 11-28-17 02:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
11-28-17 02:34 PM - Post#2716132    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

so what ever that I have said here previous was a waste of time. everything that you have asked has already been explained in this thread by words and pictures
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
11-28-17 02:55 PM - Post#2716144    
    In response to sidworks

  • sidworks Said:
this 1st picture is your Zbar in your truck. pls not again the position of the lever arms. one has been relocated


the next zbar is one that hasn't been modified

ron




top picture(1) and where you see where the light shining and where you see where the lower lever comes from the bottom of the zbar and it joins the linkage rod going back to the clutch. that is close to where it should be. this is the same position as the lower lever arm in the lower picture(2). can you see and understand that.

on the lower picture(2) the upper arm or the one facing back is about where it it is positioned in a stock truck. actually it would be rotated a little lower and the bottom one would come a bit further to the frt of the vehicle. when you look at the picture of the zbar in your truck that lever arm has been repositioned on yours to the top and forward
here is # 3 if you were looking at it from the nut end and it was in place this is where the lever arms on the zbar should be located.

this has been shown to you before
ron


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
11-28-17 03:55 PM - Post#2716158    
    In response to sidworks

I am starting to understand it better now Ron.

And no Ron, it isn't a waste of your time because you're helping us get to the root of the problem, but my grandfather, who is also 72, going on 73 this December said you should post more in depth pictures for us to see. That's all. He said he'll take the heat. He wants at least one or two in depth and clear photos of photos the zbar in a 63 to 66 truck if you have any trucks yourself that you haven't sold yet. Or he said at least of you holding the zbar. If you need time to do this we will be patient and wait until you have time to post these photos.

I apologize if I offended you, but if you were in my situation, as a new rookie mechanic that doesn't know much like myself, you would probably be asking the same thing and you would want clear and concise photos for a rookie to be able to fully understand.


I learn better with pictures than words that's why I and my grandfather are asking you for a more in depth picture of a zbar in an actual truck hooked up. Whereas all that you have posted was pictures of a zbar on a work table in different positions.

My grandfather and I need a bit more than a photo of a zbar on a table. So I'm asking you to expand on what you have already accomplished in this thread, it wasn't a waste of time as we are in need of assistance with this to correct the mistakes of the past owners.

Needles


Edited by Eric_Gary132 on 11-28-17 04:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
11-28-17 04:42 PM - Post#2716170    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

you learn by getting and looking at it.I think that you have been given enough info to get off your backside and start looking at it. there has been a total of 70 something replies in a couple different threads on this by you.
read back thru it. you have a cobbled setup that seems to be beyond you. you have had good suggestions to put it back to a hydraulic setup.

ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
11-28-17 05:53 PM - Post#2716190    
    In response to sidworks

I forgot to mention something. We tried going into 1st gear and reverse with the truck off and without even pressing the clutch pedal in and it still jammed on us and would not go into those gears. And this is why this situation is confusing to us.

the clutch shop said they felt it is the transmission causing issues. and they are a very popular clutch shop.

If you don't feel like replying to this that's fine, I just wanted to let you know.


and one other thing, our clutch pedal does not travel directly through the floorboard, instead the arms of the pedal go directly up like on modern cars and trucks. not sure if that makes a difference or not in relation to the position of the z/bar but my grandfather wanted me to mention it to you.

Needles


Edited by Eric_Gary132 on 11-28-17 07:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
12-02-17 01:04 PM - Post#2716648    
    In response to Eric_Gary132

this is a picture of my old 32 Chevrolet sedan as it sits today. I haven't seen it in 50 years and it did look much better 50 years ago. everything was there on that vehicle ; hood, bumpers and mind you it was in primer but the body was done. it had a 3 1/2" dropped axle and the old 8:20 x 15 tires on the back and littler on the front and a quite healthy 371 Olds in it. in about 63 I was going to drop a buick in it but the way the exhaust exited the heads I wouldn't have been able to close the hood so I put a sbc in it and after it was on the road I realized that there was no substitute for cu." so in went the Olds. when I put the sbc in I had to come up with a clutch setup. you will see oh the top left of the firewall a dual cyl master; now rember this is 63.
I can remember going out to that old auto wrecker in Cloverdale and pulling the whole clutch setup out of a 62 chev p/up. the pedal assembly, master slave and whatever else went with it and fitted it all into my 32 and it did every thing that I ever asked of it. this picture I believe was taken earlier this year so it looks like it is still in service

this is a picture that the fellow that owns it now sent me recently.
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


Edited by sidworks on 12-02-17 07:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27090
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
12-02-17 01:28 PM - Post#2716653    
    In response to sidworks

I like it! Olds is still my favorite old skool power. I see you have one of those starter relocation housings too. The oil filter gives it away.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
sidworks 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3478

Age: 72
Loc: Sidney, B.C.
Reg: 12-03-05
12-02-17 01:43 PM - Post#2716655    
    In response to raycow

Ray; I think that is an earlier olds than mine. starter went where it should have and ran the std oil filter. I did have a chevy box behind it, a aluminum flywheel and custom built headers. the motor had MT 11 1/2:1 pistons, a large displacement Engel full comp cam, heads reworked and polished and 6 97's on top that shone just like those chrome breathers do. that was a lot of hand work to polish all those carbs. now you just go out and buy it all.
ron

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208929-...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220902-...
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156542-...


 
Eric_Gary132 
Contributor
Posts: 278

Loc: northern California
Reg: 01-27-17
12-02-17 04:54 PM - Post#2716675    
    In response to sidworks

Nice car Ron. The body and engine bay look really nice, especially the engine bay. I like how you kept it original looking. I can't stand it when they make them into low riders.

Does it still have its original interior? Like the steering wheel and seats etc?

Needles


Edited by Eric_Gary132 on 12-03-17 05:44 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
bobschevytrucks.com Ecklers LMC Trucks

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