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Username Post: old problem new question        (Topic#346049)
turbo38s10 
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1369
turbo38s10
Loc: Agawam,MA
Reg: 09-17-09
07-16-17 02:26 PM - Post#2700259    

Running hot in traffic runs great when moving but after 5-10 minutes in traffic gets up to 195-200 and the I won't let it get higher I pull over. Someone mentioned that I should plug the bypass hose, it was for heating the manifold up and the water bypasses the radiator so it doesn't get cooled. Currently 409 bored .30 over just done so block is clean. Aluminum water pump, 6 blade fan no clutch, 160 thermostat(but doesn't matter whether it's 160, 180 or none does the same thing), 1800 cfm pusher electric fan, radiator support shrouds, 3 core aluminum radiator(not champion).Put my old 3 core 348 radiator that watewr cleaned and tested in and still did the same thing( also did this when I had my 348 in it) Everything I did slowed it but doesn't stop it. I took out the fender well dust shields to let more air out.Currently using plain water since it is supposed to cool better than anything else.



 
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Tri5man 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3377
Tri5man
Loc: Possums Crotch, KY
Reg: 06-26-07
07-16-17 02:44 PM - Post#2700261    
    In response to turbo38s10

Cooling Rule Of Thumb, runs hot at highway speed - not enough radiator. Runs hot at low speed - not enough fan. Youmean you have an engine driven fan and pusher fans? I don't use pusher fans as they restrict airflow. I'd remove them.

Gary



 
turbo38s10 
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1369
turbo38s10
Loc: Agawam,MA
Reg: 09-17-09
07-16-17 05:19 PM - Post#2700279    
    In response to Tri5man

Yes both fans and it did help just didn't completely stop it.



 
Brian64SS 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1121
Brian64SS
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Reg: 09-30-00
07-16-17 08:10 PM - Post#2700295    
    In response to turbo38s10

Plain water doesn't boil until +212. A mix of anti-freeze/coolant that's good to 20 below zero is good to +260. Pressurizing the cooling system raises the boiling point quite a bit more. A typical thermostat doesn't open until +195.

So why do you shut off an engine at 200? Seems like a sure way to not enjoy your car when it's running normally. Maybe I'm misunderstanding....

Brian
1964 Impala SS, 283 (not original), 4-speed (25 years)
1964 Impala 4-door hardtop, 283 Powerglide (2 years)
They made a million but I only have two.


 
junky 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2108

Loc: Northeast CT
Reg: 06-27-10
07-16-17 09:08 PM - Post#2700300    
    In response to Brian64SS

ethylene glycol antifreeze with water in a 50-50 ratio increases the boiling point to 223°F, which is close to the operating temperature of an engine.

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience.


 
models916 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4529

Age: 66
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
07-17-17 04:09 AM - Post#2700310    
    In response to junky

Plus the pressure cap on the radiator will bump up the boiling point. I have had mine at 220 in traffic. I don't like it but have had no problems with that. Bypass hose may actually helping by pressurizing water into tight spots. I would guess you need more low RPM timing. I run 18 at idle and 36 total all in at 2700 RPM. You would then need to calibrate the vacuum advance if you run one. Ignition man has the instructions on that.



 
1963er 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 162
1963er
Loc: Joppa, Md.
Reg: 12-20-15
07-17-17 04:34 AM - Post#2700314    
    In response to models916

Nothing wrong with that temp.....normal




 
brokenspoke 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 31

Reg: 02-28-08
07-17-17 04:52 AM - Post#2700315    
    In response to 1963er

First of all a radiator has one core, they have rows 2-3-4. Second 200 degrees is not over heating. Your temp gauge is most likely off a little...Also check your timing and double check where your getting the vacuum for the advance. Be sure your vacuum advance canister is in working order. Manifold vacuum is needed so the vacuum advance retards the timing at idle.



Edited by brokenspoke on 07-17-17 05:20 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Verne_Frantz 
61-64 Subject Matter Expert
Posts: 5069
Verne_Frantz
Loc: hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-17-17 06:19 AM - Post#2700325    
    In response to brokenspoke

  • brokenspoke Said:
First of all a radiator has one core, they have rows 2-3-4. Second 200 degrees is not over heating. Your temp gauge is most likely off a little...Also check your timing and double check where your getting the vacuum for the advance. Be sure your vacuum advance canister is in working order. Manifold vacuum is needed so the vacuum advance retards the timing at idle.



Actually, your VAC should be "all in" at idle (or cruise) vacuum. and preferably, 2" below that. In other words, if you're running 18" of vacuum at idle, you should be using a VAC that's all in by 16".

Verne

What is your idle manifold vacuum?



Edited by Verne_Frantz on 07-17-17 06:20 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
turbo38s10 
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1369
turbo38s10
Loc: Agawam,MA
Reg: 09-17-09
07-17-17 06:21 AM - Post#2700326    
    In response to brokenspoke

All good points except when you run a 160 thermostat your engine should run at 160 not 200+. I shut it off because I don't want it to overheat an possibly create another problem, say a blown head gasket etc no matter how small a chance. I have put a mechanical gauge along with the stock gauge just to verify and they match. I just had the engine done and I'm not about to let it overheat just to see how far it will go.



 
Tri5man 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3377
Tri5man
Loc: Possums Crotch, KY
Reg: 06-26-07
07-17-17 06:42 AM - Post#2700329    
    In response to turbo38s10

A 160 degree thermostat WILL NOT guarantee your engine will run at 160. The sole function of a thermostat is to warm up your engine faster. Once the thermostat is open your engine should exceed 160 and continue to climb until it reaches its normal operating temperature. 195-200 degrees is a normal operating temperature and not an indication of overheating.


Gary



 
rrausch 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13415
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
07-17-17 07:01 AM - Post#2700333    
    In response to Tri5man

Are you sure the temp gauge is reading accurately? Did you try using an infrared thermometer and pointing it at various places on the cooling system.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
japete92 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 804
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-17-17 08:00 AM - Post#2700339    
    In response to Tri5man

  • Tri5man Said:
A 160 degree thermostat WILL NOT guarantee your engine will run at 160. The sole function of a thermostat is to warm up your engine faster. Once the thermostat is open your engine should exceed 160 and continue to climb until it reaches its normal operating temperature. 195-200 degrees is a normal operating temperature and not an indication of overheating.


Gary



Gary is 100% correct.

I was told by a source I consider reliable that the 'hot' light comes on around 235 degrees F. I have not found documentation on that, but is matches my experiences. Not saying that 235 is normal or acceptable; but that's the temp GM thought was 'pull over' time.

I've attached some info that may be helpful.




Attachment: pressure-boiling-point.pdf (76.06 KB) 4 View(s)



 
japete92 
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 804
japete92
Loc: No. Virginia
Reg: 01-18-13
07-17-17 08:08 AM - Post#2700341    
    In response to Tri5man

  • Tri5man Said:
Cooling Rule Of Thumb, runs hot at highway speed - not enough radiator. Runs hot at low speed - not enough fan. Youmean you have an engine driven fan and pusher fans? I don't use pusher fans as they restrict airflow. I'd remove them.

Gary



I agree with Gary that the 'pusher' fans are superfluous, at best; and flow restrictive at worst. But your temps are NORMAL.





 
55Brodie 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 96
55Brodie
Age: 65
Loc: Little River, SC
Reg: 12-26-15
07-17-17 10:11 AM - Post#2700350    
    In response to ozzie7

Sorry, but I have to call hooey on the lubrication statement. The bearing is grease packed and sealed and all the mechanical seal needs is a liquid. Water only qualifies.



 
turbo38s10 
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1369
turbo38s10
Loc: Agawam,MA
Reg: 09-17-09
07-17-17 10:25 AM - Post#2700351    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

Verne, it was all in at idle(1O degree intial no vacuum advance) but now I'm running FITech fuel injection. At first it was with the vacuum distributor but now it is mechanical and locked out per the instructions and the computer controls all timing.
That being said I have had the same issue whether it was with the 4 barrel carb, fuel injection with vacuum distributor or mechanical computer controlled so I don't believe the issue is that.
My engine guy says to tape a temp gauge bulb to the lower radiator hose real good and check that temp against the upper reading. Ideally they will be 20degrees apart. But if it is 10 or less then to much pump flow and if 30 or more then not enough flow. I'm working on that now.
What I have noticed is the engine compartment gets really really hot when not moving. I mean you can't touch the front of the hood or the top of the fenders near the hood if the hood is closed. I'm beginning to believe that it's more about getting the heat out of the engine bay rather than the engine getting to hot or at least a major factor. With the 409 in there there isn't a lot of open area for air to escape any thoughts or am I just out in left field.



 
rrausch 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13415
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
07-17-17 11:12 AM - Post#2700353    
    In response to turbo38s10

DO NOT run just water. A 50/50 of good antifreeze and DISTILLED water is the best.

Don't ask me how I know this, but it stems from a '70 MGB/GT--the worst car I ever owned--in 1981. Every stinkin' month I owned that car something broke on it that cost me $100. I ran only water in it for about 6-7 months, and the "water" eventually turned into rusty sludge. I unloaded it to another sucker for $200 and breathed a sigh of relief.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
Verne_Frantz 
61-64 Subject Matter Expert
Posts: 5069
Verne_Frantz
Loc: hightstown,NJ USA
Reg: 08-22-00
07-17-17 11:44 AM - Post#2700354    
    In response to turbo38s10

Earlier you had said something about "radiator support shrouds". Could you explain that a little better? Maybe you have tried to funnel the air better through the radiator but have actually restricted its movement.

As for water pump bearings, they DO sell little bottles of water pump lubricant to add to the water.

Verne



 
Tri5man 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3377
Tri5man
Loc: Possums Crotch, KY
Reg: 06-26-07
07-17-17 12:59 PM - Post#2700361    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

How does lubricant in the cooling system get into the bearings that are in a sealed compartment? Sounds like a "snake oil" BS advertisement to me. If water gets into the water pumps bearing compartment the water will leak out of the weep hole and the water pump is failed.

Gary



 
55Brodie 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 96
55Brodie
Age: 65
Loc: Little River, SC
Reg: 12-26-15
07-17-17 01:00 PM - Post#2700362    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

I'd sell muffler bearings and blinker fluid if somebody would buy them.



 
turbo38s10 
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1369
turbo38s10
Loc: Agawam,MA
Reg: 09-17-09
07-17-17 01:20 PM - Post#2700364    
    In response to Verne_Frantz

Verne these are the filler panels:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/61-Impala-Radiato r-Show-Fi...



 
pvs409 
"5th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1704
pvs409
Loc: Sergeant Bluff, Iowa
Reg: 01-10-05
07-17-17 03:36 PM - Post#2700372    
    In response to turbo38s10

here is a little different picture of the filler panels options that are available for 61 and 62's

http://www.lategreatchevy.com/full-size-chevy-core...

I have these filler panels on my 62 SS 409 stroker motor SS Hardtop (with black "SS Impala ") with a stock 409 fan shroud, 8 bladed fan, no clutch, stock 409 water pump and Griffin aluminum 409 style large core radiator plus a 160 degree thermostat.
My 409 runs 190 degrees and sometimes to 200 degrees. I have run water wetter in the past. I do have a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and distilled water.

I do not have extra fans, and I have found that I don't need them.

Paul

57 BelairHT 283/270hp 4 spd
62 ImpHT 327/300 4 spd
62 Imp CV SS 327/300HP 700R4
62 ImpHT SS 409/482 stroker 4 spd
62 Imp SS 409 - 5 spd Convertible under frameoff
Website http://paulstensland.com/
[image]http://chevytalk.org/sm/26453.jpg[/ima


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6494
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
07-17-17 04:22 PM - Post#2700379    
    In response to pvs409

Nothing wrong with 190-200F.

I'd run 50/50 anti freeze and distilled water. Any other water has who knows what minerals in it.

If you are running 2 thermostats and they agree, they are likely accurate.

A fresh built motor will run a little hotter until it is broken in, I'd say 5,000 miles would do it.

A 160 thermostat opens at 160, it doesn't change anything about how how your motor will run, but it will run cooler with the thermostat open.

I assume you are running a stock fan shroud with the fan blades half in half out.

Keep driving it with the 50/50 anti freeze mix and let it go to 210-215 or so, see if goes that high. I don't think you will have problem at those numbers for a short time. Just try to get some highway miles on it and get it broken in and see if it improves.

My modern cars run all day at 194F, summer and winter.

Don

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


Edited by DonSSDD on 07-17-17 04:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Brian64SS 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1121
Brian64SS
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Reg: 09-30-00
07-17-17 08:14 PM - Post#2700413    
    In response to DonSSDD

There are 12 explosions taking place in each cylinder Every Second at 1440 RPM - one every other revolution in a 4-stroke engine. A little internet searching found the temp of internal engine parts is as high as 1200 F. If an engine is going to run as cold as 160 F how can all that heat be dissipated that fast? It can't, it's impossible.

The friction and wear in an engine is brutal, rings scraping cylinder walls, lifters on cam lobes, bearings, high pressures, high stresses, high temps. That's just the engine. What about transmission, driveshaft, rear-end, brakes, steering, suspension, frame and body. With all that chaos and carnage going on, it's irresponsible to drive them or even run them.

Water pump lube might do something to keep the seal soft but if it gets to and lubes the bearing, the seal is shot and the pump needs to be replaced.

Brian
1964 Impala SS, 283 (not original), 4-speed (25 years)
1964 Impala 4-door hardtop, 283 Powerglide (2 years)
They made a million but I only have two.


 
Andy4639 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 627
Andy4639
Age: 56
Loc: Liberty, SC
Reg: 08-06-16
07-18-17 04:14 AM - Post#2700437    
    In response to turbo38s10

Cooling.

1,250 CFM for a 4-cylinder
2,000 CFM for a 6-cylinder
2,500 CFM for a 8-cylinder

A further note is that engines that are 5.0-liter (302 cubic inches) or larger should use an electric fan with 2,800 or more CFM. Obviously, an 800-horsepower engine will need more cooling than a 400-horsepower version regardless of the cylinder-count, but this basic guidance will get you started. And no amount of CFM will keep an engine cool if the radiator is under-sized or if too much of the grille-opening is obstructed. But let's move on, assuming that you have a typical engine in a typical enthusiast's car or 4x4 with a proper radiator.

A few rules of thumb:
Don't use an electric fan as the primary fan on 4-core radiators. It overworks the fan to try to draw air through these extremely restrictive radiators.
It's recommended to have at least 70-percent of the radiator core covered by the fan shroud.
Use puller electric fans (mounted behind the radiator) for primary cooling. A pusher (mounted in front of the radiator) is appropriate as an auxiliary fan.

These general guidelines should address most of the questions and issues you run into when trying to determine which electric fan will fit on your application.

New vehicles run at 210* all day long and are fine.




1956 Bel Air - LT-1/4l60
1964 SS Impala -350 crate/powerglide
1967 Ramp truck - 350/ 4 speed
1971 C 10 - 6.0 LS / 4l80e 4:10 gears 30 years owner
94 Elderado
2000 S-10
2008 LTZ Tahoe
2011 Treverse


Edited by Andy4639 on 07-18-17 04:22 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
models916 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4529

Age: 66
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
07-18-17 05:54 AM - Post#2700451    
    In response to Andy4639

Water pump bearing is sealed. Lube is more for the surface to surface of the impeller to housing.



 
CATS 09 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 29
CATS 09
Reg: 05-27-12
07-18-17 07:10 AM - Post#2700464    
    In response to Brian64SS

Brian64SS, so it's a good idea to give your car a few gentle pats on the hood every time it gets you back home with no strange noises coming from underneath, especially after running some snot out of it, i do.
I run a mech. 5 blade and an elec.18" puller fan, 50/50 water mix, 18 degrees adv? at idle, Champion rad. on my stroker 409, 160 thermostat. Moving on the road temp is 160-175, on real hot days outside (88-95) and humid, stopping often in city traffic it climbs sometimes to 210-215 but never any more than that. It has a stock water pump and the casting slag in the engines water pump passages has been ground away. I personally flushed out the engine and head water sides after it was tanked/blown out by the builder, it is very clean in there.



 
Brian64SS 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1121
Brian64SS
Loc: Milwaukee, Wi
Reg: 09-30-00
07-18-17 07:29 PM - Post#2700548    
    In response to CATS 09

Ha, yeah I've done that once or twice. Not trying to tell anyone how to live but overthinking this stuff would take the fun out of it for me. A friend has a late model Mustang, spotless but not rare or valuable. He won't take it out where it'll get bugs on the grille or where the undercarriage will get dirty.

Brian
1964 Impala SS, 283 (not original), 4-speed (25 years)
1964 Impala 4-door hardtop, 283 Powerglide (2 years)
They made a million but I only have two.


 
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