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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: Swap to Camel Hump Heads        (Topic#341778)
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-08-17 02:10 PM - Post#2670149    

I have a chance to buy a pair of 3917291 heads. I have a 1980 Corvette engine in my '50 and was going to do a valve job over the winter but if I can swap these with no drama I will. Current heads are 76cc and the others are 64cc, straight plugs, supposedly rebuilt.
My 350 has an Edelbrock Performer cam, tri-power and Sanderson headers. I figure for about the cost of a valve job I can have better heads for my street cruiser..
Sound good?
Thanks for any clues or heads up.

Dean50



 

rrausch 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13122
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
01-08-17 02:16 PM - Post#2670151    
    In response to Dean50

Which double-hump heads are they? The ones with 1.94 exhaust valves or 2.02? But in general the better the head breathes, the more power the engine will make.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
Shepherd 
Contributor
Posts: 690

Loc: Lake George, NY
Reg: 11-11-15
01-08-17 04:41 PM - Post#2670175    
    In response to Dean50

Big compression increase, check what it works out to first.



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-08-17 05:37 PM - Post#2670182    
    In response to Shepherd

Hi Dean, That's a great call Shepard! A small block jumps a lot more when you change cylinder head chambers and that' quite a bit.
What will follow on is that you will also have a significant change to the dynamic compression. (The one that really matters.) and this is a combination of a number of factors but primarily driven by the cam profile and its position.
Go to the Performance Forum and do some reading to Grumpy Vette's sticky posts, it's all there.

What I know is there isn't a stock head that cant flow well enough to give the optimum balance of performance responsiveness and economy below 3000rpm. And that's were a road car spends the vast amount of its life.
Maybe a weekend warrior may go a bit higher but the figure that matter is where the torque peak is. HP is a bench racer number. Because it is a derived quantity and is just torque v revs, all you have to do to get a given engine to make more HP is rev it higher. To make it a fundamentally more powerful engine you have to improve or re-position the torque peak. The easiest improvers are to boost or change fuel type. (Nos,race gas,Methanol,and nitro.)
Most of the other fixes are about durability and moving the torque peak up. But there is no free lunch with these. If you change a bottom end effect like stock air flow by porting or bigger heads then you will gain high rev flow at the expense the low speed velocity that gives you better torque, response and combustion. If you raise the dynamic compression you will definitely raise the potential for detonation. So you have to compensate for this by backing off the ignition and loosing some or all of the gain. Altering the cam position, or entire profile, or running higher octane fuel will get some back.

If I was to try and putt all the variables into a cohesive package for you to get your head around. I would say that you should get a piece of string two nails or pins and a length of string.
Put the pins into the block about six inches apart and make the string long enough to have about an inch of deflection in the middle.
Now I know this isn't a true torque curve but this is your engine. If you push the sting



48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-08-17 06:37 PM - Post#2670184    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Hi Guys, I timed out and lost the rules of the game so bare with me and I will retype it tonight.

Cheers kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-08-17 09:33 PM - Post#2670198    
    In response to rrausch

Thanks guys. I'll have to get hold of them to check the valve size. Just heard about these today.

Dean50



 
50hotrod 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 819
50hotrod
Age: 60
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
01-09-17 12:31 PM - Post#2670293    
    In response to Dean50

Dean50,
Yes those are great stock heads, 94 or 202 intakes.
You will get a compression bump with the 64cc chambers which will result in more power you will feel.

I would add a mild cam.....but its not necessary to run good.


Well, you know what's wrong with the world today

People done gone put their Bible's away

They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land

"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels



 
bobb 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 5294
bobb
Loc: paradise
Reg: 09-05-03
01-09-17 09:00 PM - Post#2670376    
    In response to Dean50

if you dont know your quench height you may run into some problems. your gonna need about .040-.045, if the camel heads give you too much compression you cannot adjust it with the head gasket thickness. how much does he want for the heads? as i understand it heads like the sr torquers are better than camel heads. nowdays you can get a fair set of aluminum heads at a pretty good price. the weight reduction and better flow would make the biggest increase in all around performance.

70 L camino, grampa engine, g-force 5 spd, road rage suspension. Pray first before all else fails.


 
50hotrod 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 819
50hotrod
Age: 60
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
01-09-17 09:36 PM - Post#2670381    
    In response to Dean50

The compression will be 9.5:1 to 10:1 with flat top pistons.


Well, you know what's wrong with the world today

People done gone put their Bible's away

They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land

"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels



Edited by 50hotrod on 01-09-17 09:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4977
56sedandelivery
Age: 65
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
01-09-17 11:33 PM - Post#2670399    
    In response to 50hotrod

Even if you decide not to use those heads, you should get them if the price is right; good for trading/resale/future project. I forget where I read it, but Camel Humps are being reproduced now; most likely offshore. IF you do use them, like has already been mentioned, quench is probably more important than the 9.5-10.5 C.R. you would most likely wind up with; that's assuming your engine has dished-4 eyebrow pistons. Intake valve size is't a big issue, but everyone seems to think it is; so are 301's and B & M Hydro-Sticks . I surely would't be building much more power into your engine as long as you have the stock 3-speed/torque-tube driveline. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.




 
70fierro 
Member
Posts: 807
70fierro
Loc: National City, Ca
Reg: 09-20-05
01-10-17 12:43 PM - Post#2670457    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

Not familiar with the 291 casting but some of the camel hump heads don't have the threaded accessory
holes



 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-10-17 07:48 PM - Post#2670525    
    In response to 50hotrod

Hey, thanks 50hotrod, Butch, bobb and 70fierro.
The heads have the 1.94 intakes, and I will have to come up with a different alternator mount (no tapped hole) but I like the 64cc vs 76cc chambers. The price is $325.00 and they have been redone already. I already have an Edelbrock Performer Plus cam in this engine(1980 Vette L48). I was just going to do a valve job on my existing heads but I figured for a few bucks more I'll get a little more pull and efficiency. It's an old school build anyway.
Butch, I will for sure not be doing any hole shots or burnouts, but it scoots pretty good going through the gears. Freeway on-ramps and passing lanes are a blast when the outside barrels kick in.

I do not know anything about quench height so any info there would be helpful.
Thanks again everybody.

Dean50



 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4977
56sedandelivery
Age: 65
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
01-10-17 10:23 PM - Post#2670535    
    In response to Dean50

"Quench or squish" ( squench is also used?)are both used to describe the "distance" of the piston at TDC relative to the surface of the head. It's measured from the "flat" of the piston, NOT the dish or dome, to the head surface. It's best to shoot for a .040 to .045 measurement, but up to .050 is acceptable to some guys. Composition head gaskets have to be figured in at a compressed thickness, not out of the box (manufactures should have that information available). An example: say your piston is .025 down in the hole at TDC, and you're using a steel shim head gasket of .018 thickness; .025 + .018 = .043, so you're in the range. But, add a thick composition gasket of .046, and you're out at .071. Depending on gasoline octane, timing, gearing involved, you may not even have or notice the "death rattle" of detonation that you're trying to avoid with quench. Stockish engines are usually way out of that .040 to .045 quench zone. But, you're boosting the C.R. with smaller chamber heads, you have a non stock cam, different carburetion/induction, so you want to be as close as you can get. Decking the engine, and using thinner head gaskets, is really the only way to adjust your quench, and I doubt you'd pull and disassemble your engine just to have it decked to arrive at an "ideal" quench. You may be just fine, you may have to use a higher octane fuel, or tailor your driving style to limit detonation. I think you'll just have to wait and see. The truth is, most guys never even consider what their quench is when assembling an engine. If your engine has been rebuilt in the past with "rebuilder" type pistons that have .020 off the tops (done figuring an rebuilt engine will get decked), but your engine is't decked, then your quench could wind up as much as .090, or more. Basically, quench is used to resist/limit detonation, that's the simple definition. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.




 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-10-17 10:33 PM - Post#2670536    
    In response to Dean50

Hi Dean, There is no such thing as quench height.
Quench is a lay term to describe the effect of deliberate chamber and piston crown combined design to induce mixture turbulence.
Given the vast majority of modifiers don't make their own piston crowns or heads. When modifying your own engine you need to consider maintaining the effect by selecting sympathetic combinations of piston shape, compression height, chamber design and gasket thickness.

Burnouts don't break drive-lines when the wheels are spinning. The maximum stress occurs in the attempt to break traction and when the traction returns under load.

Given you have a 400 SBC, you are developing far more torque than your current drive-line was ever designed to handle. Plus its old parts.
Hard acceleration with both rear tires gripping in low gears is not a smart idea. If you increase the torque more you will destroy your drive line even more quickly because nobody who wants more power doesn't use it.

Buy them if you want to do the drive-line later, and you think they are a bargain.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-11-17 07:23 AM - Post#2670555    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks Butch and Kiwi,
Quench is a new term to me but it is something I will factor in. The engine is stock, no rebuild. I'll see what the piston tops look like when I take the old heads off, sometime in the next couple of weeks. I'll measure the piston height at TDC and go from there.

Dean50



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-11-17 04:14 PM - Post#2670617    
    In response to Dean50

Hi Guys, I am Not Disagreeing with anything Butch has said, just that Squish and Quench are effects we want and the distance that the piston is down from the top of the block is actually called deck height clearance.
There is no correct deck height as it is specific to the situation. There is a myth that zero deck is important for modified engines and it simply doesn't matter. It's a means to an end, not an outcome.
In fact if you start and rev some aluminium zero deck height engines and rev them hard they smash themselves to pieces internally. Fontana sohc pinto on methanol would be a classic for this.
Not that you can rev any cold engine hard without excess wear. particularly if they have dry sumps or oil coolers.
Aluminium rods are another issue as they grow in length meaning if you start at zero deck in an iron block then you tend to go negative as they expand.
In part this is why high end race car owners rarely let drivers start the cars. Its almost always the crew chief and that is because he has a different agenda and skill set from most drivers.

One of the fumiest delusions/misunderstandin gs I find is that vehicle modifiers and hobbiests think they under stand and know how to make OE engines work better than the people who designed and made millions of them. The OE choice to run 30 to 60 thou. of deck clearance height is simply about money. Running tight tolerance spreads in volume manufacturing is very expensive. Given there are more than 15 million SBC, VW flat four, Honda 50cc and possibly other engines. Also given that these engines have superb reliability reputations through genuine reliability and proven customer satisfaction.
Non of these engines are zero decked or "blueprinted" from new so its only when you want different outcomes that deck height changes come into consideration.
Zero deck height is not a starting point but a potential answer to some changes you may make in your pursuit of your new parameters.

The performance forum is the right place for this sort of discussion, it is well moderated but there are some absolute idiots on it and some trolls so I tend to avoid it. If I ran a flat top in my Dart then the piston would have to be at least 80 thou down the bore to get the correct static C.R. as there is a 671 blower sitting on top.
I actually did that in the mule engine I built from a production block to test all the accessory systems.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 01-11-17 04:25 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
50hotrod 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 819
50hotrod
Age: 60
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
01-12-17 09:46 PM - Post#2670873    
    In response to Dean50

  • Dean50 Said:

The heads have the 1.94 intakes, and I will have to come up with a different alternator mount (no tapped hole)



Dean50, Not sure if you knew this but
you can drill and tap the double hump heads for the alternator brackets you use now and keep the same water pump also. I have done it in the past.



Well, you know what's wrong with the world today

People done gone put their Bible's away

They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land

"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels



 
56sedandelivery 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4977
56sedandelivery
Age: 65
Loc: Everett, Wa.
Reg: 02-26-08
01-13-17 12:49 AM - Post#2670892    
    In response to 50hotrod

  • 50hotrod Said:
  • Dean50 Said:

The heads have the 1.94 intakes, and I will have to come up with a different alternator mount (no tapped hole)



Dean50, Not sure if you knew this but
you can drill and tap the double hump heads for the alternator brackets you use now and keep the same water pump also. I have done it in the past.




This is true IF you do it correctly, and only drill a single hole; I have done it too. BUT, drilling/tapping the heads only gives you 1/4-3/8 of an inch thickness for a bolt to grab hold of; not much. I have a pair of 461 heads done this way, each head has a single tapped hole; my plan was to put the now plugged with set screw holes against the firewall, so they would't be seen. I have also made brackets using flat stock, and used that to bolt the alternator/power steering pump adjusters too (easy enough and does't risk damaging the resale value of a set of heads. I did that when I was forced to put a 327 into my 82 truck for a while. I could take the measurements of where the tapped holes are if that would help. JMO.
I am Butch/56sedandelivery.




 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-13-17 11:52 AM - Post#2670948    
    In response to 56sedandelivery

Thanks 50hotrod and Butch.
I'll try a different bracket before I would drill and tap. I should be able to make something up if I can't find a stock type bracket. If I need to, I would definitely appreciate the dimensions if the time comes.
Thanks again.

Dean50



 
skip57 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 47

Reg: 09-24-14
01-16-17 08:25 PM - Post#2671704    
    In response to Dean50

what is the rest of the casting number along with the date cast that should have one letter & 2 to 4 #



 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-17-17 07:56 AM - Post#2671773    
    In response to skip57

Hi Skip57
I didn't see any other numbers. The castings are:
H 11 7 GM13
H 14 7 GM28
Dropped them off yesterday to get them checked over. The shop had stacks of Edelbrock aluminum heads to be worked on. To paraphrase George Gobel on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show: I felt like pair of brown loafers in a room full of tuxedos.

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Dean50



 
4dr 57 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4349
4dr 57
Loc: Texas Hill Country
Reg: 11-10-04
01-18-17 10:18 AM - Post#2672017    
    In response to Dean50

Prety cool dean HRM just ran an article on this exact cylinder head and engine combination so you might want to check it out. Although their engine had a retro fit roller cam, the nuances sound about the same.

You would also have to magnaflux your new heads, and check the CC of the combustion chambes before you figure the compression ratio. If they've been milled much you may have to have the same done to your intake. It will also add compression. Quench?
Hopefully its a simple swap with only an increase in valve size if you have an agressive cam.

If the heads number out to 1.64 valves but now has 2.02's with bigger springs in them you would be advised to check for water leaks at the valve spring seats, especially at the ends. Good Luck!


It's all good. mostly




 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-18-17 03:48 PM - Post#2672086    
    In response to 4dr 57

4Dr 57
Actually I just got word the heads are ready. Supposedly they had been magnafluxed and reworked before the p.o. got them, he actually had gotten (and gave me) a money back guarantee. He had never used them. This week they were disassembled and checked, showing that the claimed work had been done (valves and seats, springs, etc) vacuum checked them, did a slight mill cleanup of the deck surfaces and installed new seals and locks.
These are the small valve heads but with smaller CC than my originals. Now ready to install.
Thanks, I will look up that HRM issue.

Dean50



 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-23-17 11:33 AM - Post#2673054    
    In response to Dean50

The new heads installed. The old heads had what looks like hard moss on a couple valves - Driver side rear and passenger side front. Maybe head gasket leaks? Weird.

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Dean50



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-23-17 04:35 PM - Post#2673122    
    In response to Dean50

Hi Dean, The deposits on the valves are either minerals from the fuel or impurities.
The exhaust valve gets the hottest so it tends to bake these on the most. In some case the minerals are actually glazed on like pottery glaze as you are well into that temp range.
One of your end cylinders is blacker than the other which can mean uneven mixture distribution or ring or valve guide wear allowing more oil into that cylinder.

Ps. don't just cover your valley when finished cover the whole top. the heads drain back to the sump too.

Cheers Kiwi

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


 
50hotrod 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 819
50hotrod
Age: 60
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
01-23-17 10:15 PM - Post#2673200    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

By the looks of those old heads she needs the snot blown out of her once in a while.

Another thing that can cause the build up is fuel additives.


Well, you know what's wrong with the world today

People done gone put their Bible's away

They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land

"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-23-17 10:37 PM - Post#2673203    
    In response to 50hotrod

Hi Hotrod 50, that's an urban legend about carbon build up.

The dark looking deposits may be extra fuel but are just as likely to be oil seepage from the rings or valve guides. While in an open fire more heat burns off excess carbon. (Oxidizing fire.) in a closed chamber the effect is usually one of Oxygen debt and so the environment is a reducing fire in which case the organic compounds and minerals are stripped of their oxides and chemically bond to surfaces.

The other side of the issue is if the engine is running rich or weeping oil into the chamber a drive won't fix it.

If you want to get rid of cylinder/chamber carbon then the actual trick is an internal steam clean. To do this you mix up a brew of alcohol and water like they use in turbo and blower cars as an anti detonant. Rev it up and dribble this down the carb without stalling the engine.

But be careful what you wish for as the carbon build up around your rings may be all that's keeping them working.

Cheers Kiwi

PS.The only value in a good thrash is recreational.

48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


Edited by Bel Air kiwi on 01-23-17 10:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-24-17 07:55 AM - Post#2673236    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks Bel Air kiwi and 50hotrod.
The engine was making just a bit of smoke at first start and when shifting and that left rear plug would foul occasionally, hence the desire for a valve job originally. We installed new valve stem seals when I got it so it figured to be the valve guides if not the rings. Before pulling the heads the leakdown test showed all cylinders maximum 5 percent.
Just to be on the safe side I will continue to occasionally run the snot out of it, for maintenance (and recreational) purposes.

Dean50



 
Bel Air kiwi 
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2470
Bel Air kiwi
Loc: New Zealand
Reg: 04-24-14
01-28-17 02:24 AM - Post#2673914    
    In response to Dean50

Hi Dean I was Looking on line at a You tube Article on un-shrouding the intake valve on 2.02 intakes. The guy sounds like he should be called Bubba, but his work and methods were all very sound. In his conclusion he showed how the smaller 1.94 valve in the head actually breathes more freely, and earlier than the larger 2.02 due to Chamber wall shrouding.
It might be worth a look as he also spends quite a bit of time showing how casting core shift can affect this quite a lot, as the chamber and port are offset to the bore, if the core placement isn't good. Clearly it isn't right very often.

Cheers Kiwi


48 3100 RHD, 51 Deluxe 4DR RHD, 51 Bel Air parts car, 52 Bel Air P-Glide LHD. Others 23T, 32 Tudor, 58 Edsel pacer 4DR HDT, 79 F250 351C RHD. 69,70,82 Capri. No mobile, no TV, and no Jap cars


 
Dean50 
"10th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1069
Dean50
Loc: Detroit area
Reg: 01-02-07
01-28-17 09:36 AM - Post#2673934    
    In response to Bel Air kiwi

Thanks kiwi. It's already going back together. Interesting about the smaller valves, as that's what mine are. I'll check out the videos.
Should have it back on the road pretty soon if it doesn't snow too much.

Dean50



 

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