39 Years of Service

Username Post: Big brake kit problems 1970 Chevelle        (Topic#339085)
robin_chevelle 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 3

Loc: the Netherlands (Europe)
Reg: 09-14-16
09-14-16 07:43 AM - Post#2651268    

CPP, I have your Big Brake kit on my 1970 chevelle.
Your part number: 6872FRBK-BB
From the start I have problems with it, can you help me?
I have a 7” Dual diaphragm booster on the car, enough vacuum.
The car does have 17” wheels with 255/50 front and 275/50 rear Nitto tires.
I suspected the booster pin, and adjusted it (also for testing) to tight, to loose and just spot on (it was good, just changed is to test). It does not have any prelaod on the master cylinder.

I checked everything to find the problem. Maybe a wrong master cylinder, or one with a valve in it? No, it looks like the right one. No valve and a 1” bore diameter. Bench bleed it a couple of times just to be sure that’s not the problem.
Maybe a wrong proportioning valve (for drum brakes)? Did check it, also the right one.
Caliper Alignment? Did check it over, and over again. It’s perfect.
Preload on the brake booster? No, pedal adjustment is good, properly align, pedal ratio is about 4:1

I’m 100% sure that there is no air in the system, no where. I did try 3 bleeding methods.
gravity bleeding / vacuum bleeding / pedal pumping,bleeding with helper. There is no air, can drain or pump fluid trough the system many times.

By the way, your instruction for the rear calipers are NOT the ones for this calipers. The e-brake system on this calipers is different.


Problem 1:
Passenger rear caliper drag. From the start there was a lot of brake dust on this wheel.
Checked it after a 10 mile drive, 40 and 30mph stops. Front discs are 90 degree Fahrenheit, drivers side rear 85 degree Fahrenheit, passengers side rear 160 degree Fahrenheit and a lot of dust. Brake was dragging very bad.

And the passangers side caliper was machined to deep! I needed 2 copper washers when I mounted the brake line. The caliper is machined deeper then 1 washer is thick. (no brake line was not upside down).

I thought about everything, e-brake, preload, but could not find a problem. Why only one caliper? After many nights of searching I opened the caliper to see what’s wrong. Could nog find anything, assembled it and made a test drive. Without any result. I did have a feeling is was the e-brake system that was locking the piston for clearing the brake pads after braking (e-brake or normal foot brake). Even though on some test drives the cabels were disconnected. Finally I just needed to know what it was, I even disassambled the piston and drilled the thread out of the e-brake system.
Put everything back together, bleed the brakes, pumped the pedal a couple of times to get the pads to the disc and made a test drive. It drove great!!! No more dragging!!! Problem found, now I ask you for a solution?
Do you have a new working caliper for me? Or parts to rebuild a new one that’s broken from day one?


Problem 2:
Locking rear brakes on hard stop.
When I make a emergency stop, or brake really hard the rear brakes lock. Both at the same time. The front doesn’t. Did try it a couple of times with the same result. Even with the brake pedal almost on the floor, the front does not lock and the rear is making 2 black marks on the road. I can put a adjustable proportioning valve in the rear line. But when that is necessary, why is it not in a ‘complete’ kit?



Problem 3:
A bit soft or spongy brake pedal, don’t say there is air in the system.
I know how it looks, no locking front brakes and a spongy pedal is air in front brakes.
No, there is absolute no air in the system, even not with calipers on there side to bleed the system or with the pistons pushed back. Brake pedal takes force, car brakes good, but for my feeling the pedal is a bit deep, soft or spongy.
I do have a normal rubber brake lines, not the braided ones but that can’t make so much differance does it? Did read a lot about the front calipers giving this problem with truck owners (were the calipers are on original).

I have a C10 pick up, a G10 van, both 1977 and a K10 suburban from 1979.
All 3 original, discs front, drums rear. Original booster and 1 1/4 master cylinders and they have a much higher but also harder brake pedal.


Can you help me, problem 1 is my biggest problem. I finally have a driving car again, but do not get trough the inspection we have every 2 year (it need e-brake on both rear wheels).
Problem 2 is strange for a complete brake kit and problem 3… well maybe it’s just the way you designed this system.



 
cpptech 
Classic Performance Products "Site Sponsor"
Posts: 939
cpptech
Loc: CA. USA
Reg: 12-08-06
10-27-16 07:23 AM - Post#2658596    
    In response to robin_chevelle

The feel you get out of the brake pedal of sponginess is the rear ebrakes are not adjusted properly. The big brake adjustment is done by ratcheting the mechanism on each caliper by hand taking all the freeplay out of the arm. They must be moved (cycled) back and forth till all the slack is gone. Once that is done; install the ebrake cables, adjust all the slack out at the adjuster under the car and then at that time the internal (in car) handle or pedal will only have a few clicks before the rear parking brake is fully engaged. This will answer all the questions/concerns as it all has to do with that adjustment IF all air is truly out of the system.

Thanks,
Aaron @ Classic Performance
800-522-5004


 
robin_chevelle 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 3

Loc: the Netherlands (Europe)
Reg: 09-14-16
11-29-16 12:53 AM - Post#2663685    
    In response to cpptech

Hello Aaron,

You are replying on this topic, after your college Chris doesn't answer my emails anymore.

But, please read my first post.
Your answer is no answer to any of my questions.
Even with truly all air out of the system and e-brake without slack (just 1 or 2 clicks) it still does have a bit strange pedal.

And one rear caliper was locking up under driving. e-brake ratcheting system was locking it.
And there is more brake pressure in the rear then the front. Ensures the rear to lock up before the front under heavy braking.




 
cpptech 
Classic Performance Products "Site Sponsor"
Posts: 939
cpptech
Loc: CA. USA
Reg: 12-08-06
12-02-16 04:49 PM - Post#2664257    
    In response to robin_chevelle

That actually does answer your question; Ebrake adjustment has everything to do with the symptoms you are having. If they are not properly adjusted and cable tension set, the caliper does not know where its stationary point is. Here is a link to the instructions that must be followed to a t.
http://www.classicperform.com/Instructions/PDF/Eme...


Thanks,
Aaron @ Classic Performance
800-522-5004


 
robin_chevelle 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 3

Loc: the Netherlands (Europe)
Reg: 09-14-16
12-12-16 01:49 PM - Post#2665743    
    In response to cpptech

Thank you for the reply.
But, your answer with a e-brake adjust instruction from different calipers then I have.
They don't work in the same way.






 
cpptech 
Classic Performance Products "Site Sponsor"
Posts: 939
cpptech
Loc: CA. USA
Reg: 12-08-06
12-15-16 09:16 AM - Post#2666204    
    In response to robin_chevelle

rear adjustment is made by ratcheting the arm back and forth on the calipers manually (at the caliper) till the piston is brought up to its adjusted point. Then the slack is adjusted out of the cables to hold the caliper in a adjusted position.

Thanks,
Aaron @ Classic Performance
800-522-5004


 
kwhizz 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1106
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
02-07-17 06:05 AM - Post#2675590    
    In response to cpptech

Boy............After many calls and being told I didn't know what I was doing.......I finally figured out that CPP sent the wrong thickness pads with my kit for the rear calipers........then a mis-matched bore Master cylinder for the vacuum booster.........Never again......


Ken



Edited by kwhizz on 02-07-17 06:07 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
cpptech 
Classic Performance Products "Site Sponsor"
Posts: 939
cpptech
Loc: CA. USA
Reg: 12-08-06
02-07-17 11:42 AM - Post#2675628    
    In response to kwhizz

Our brake pads only have one thickness. Not too sure other then aligning the calipers would cause an offset issue, we don't have thickness issues.
When you mention a mis-match on the booster to master, what are you referring too? I am more then happy to help but need some info.

Thanks,
Aaron @ Classic Performance
800-522-5004


 
kwhizz 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1106
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
02-07-17 01:43 PM - Post#2675641    
    In response to cpptech

The rear pads were .090 per pad too thin......when ratcheting the E brake arm to get the pads tight....the ratchet arm was so deep into the caliper (because of the thin pads)that the tapered portion of the shaft was inside the "O" ring and brake fluid would leak out.......At the time I didn't know the pads were incorrect.....I assumed that the parts that came with the kit were correct.....I called many times (5 years ago) and was told that I wasn't adjusting the ratchet arm correctly.......Then one day (still hadn't driven the car yet)the pads were not flopping around in the caliper, I thought that something magical happened and they fixed themselves....LOL......I started driving the car but it (66 Impala)never seemed to have the correct braking power and the front rims were always covered in Brake Dust........Bottom line, I got into a emergency stopping situation and the front wheels locked up and I got into a accident (rear ended the car in front of me)....Car goes to the body shop and got fixed........when I get the car home I decided not to drive it again until I figured out what was wrong.......I was tired of the brake dust and decided to put Ceramic pads on the car......When I did the rears, I found out that the wire spring clips that were supposed to hold the pads in place for assy were out of place and dropped down slightly and filled in the space between the piston and the back of the pad and made the pads seem tight.....LOL......what happened was the pads were in on a slight angle as to how the clips allowed them to be and the pads wore on the angle to match.......so.......the pads were (I Thought) tight.....but actually the rear brakes never worked, so I was driving the car with front brakes only.......when I put the Ceramic pads in the rear they fit right in and the pads were tight against the calipers as they should have been...........So........Got that issue resolved but now the car had Brakes......But lacked stopping power..........I took it to a local Street Rod shop and told them I didn't want my baby back till it stopped correctly.......They added a HydroBoost setup on the car and it now stops like a Indy Car........I would have never thought that setup would ever have that much stopping power........They told me the Master cylinder was also not sized correctly to work with the power unit........Long Story, many calls to CPP in the beginning and being told I didn't know what I was doing......an Accident.....and finally solving the problem a year later.......

That's my Story....



Edited by kwhizz on 02-07-17 01:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
cpptech 
Classic Performance Products "Site Sponsor"
Posts: 939
cpptech
Loc: CA. USA
Reg: 12-08-06
02-09-17 08:01 AM - Post#2675941    
    In response to kwhizz

When this kit was purchased 5+ years ago the master cylinder would be setup with a 1" bore specifically for Manual brakes or a very small (7-8") vacuum booster. The 1-1/8" master would be for a larger power booster as well as a Hydraulic assist. The hydraulic assist units do work great for engines not producing good vacuum as you have figured out with the shop you contracted to finish the job. .09" thickness difference in pads would only make an adjustment change. If you really think about it, Imagine when your pads wear are you going to loose brakes? NO! When the Ebrake is properly adjusted at the start, this would engage the piston to the set starting point and as the pad wears and the Ebrake is used, They stay adjusted.

I apologize you have had trouble in the past and am confident if we would have spoke back then or had email correspondence I could have walked you through it.

If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to send me a direct email at aaron@classicperform.com

Thanks,
Aaron @ Classic Performance
800-522-5004


 
kwhizz 
"9th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1106
kwhizz
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 01-01-07
02-09-17 01:55 PM - Post#2675996    
    In response to cpptech

The engine did not have a vacuum problem.......Stock 2006 GTO LS2....Stock Cam....No Vacuum issues....and.....again......In theory the pad thickness (.090 per side...... .180 Total)to you might be acceptable........But.....when I put in the Ceramic pads everything worked perfectly......except for the stopping power which the Hydro Boost fixed.......Just telling you my experience.........



Edited by kwhizz on 02-09-17 01:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Report Post

Quote Post

Quick Reply

Print Topic

Email Topic

1398 Views
FusionBB
FusionBB™ Version 2.1
©2003-2006 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.636 seconds.   Total Queries: 16   Zlib Compression is on.
All times are (GMT -0800) Pacific. Current time is 12:38 PM
Top