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Username Post: The MOTHER of all Chevrolet Small Block Starter threads        (Topic#338918)
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
09-08-16 09:30 AM - Post#2650142    

Hi All,
Let's talk about factory Chevy Starters to bolt onto Gen I small block engines only. Facts only here. Let's cover:
-- 153 vs. 168 flex plate / fly wheels
-- Stagger vs. straight bolt patterns
-- 1970 Corvette LT1 starters
-- Gen II LT1 starters
-- 1996-1999 Vortec starters
-- LS starters
-- other factory starters
-- aftermarket starters
For BBC starters, see the thread titled "The MOTHER of all Chevrolet Big Block Starter threads"




    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



Edited by BigDogSS on 09-08-16 09:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 




BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
09-08-16 05:07 PM - Post#2650235    
    In response to BigDogSS

OK, I'll start. Here is what I found out:
-- Straight bolt pattern = 153 tooth
-- Staggered bolt pattern = 168 tooth

Correct?

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



Edited by BigDogSS on 09-08-16 05:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
09-08-16 05:15 PM - Post#2650239    
    In response to BigDogSS

OK, so my nephew has a GMPP 350/290HP with TH350 in his 1961 Bel Air and is having heat-soak issues with his starter. I'm unsure if it is staggered or straight bolt hole pattern.
I've heard Chevrolet now uses "permanent magnet" starters that impervious the common heat issues.
What engines should I obtain a starter from? Vortec? LT1(1990s)? LS?
We want to stick with GM --> no aftermarket starters.
What about wiring it up? any concerns?
Thanks!

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



Edited by BigDogSS on 09-08-16 05:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
57ORG 
Senior Member
Posts: 625

Loc: Brookfield,Illinois
Reg: 12-24-02
09-09-16 10:08 AM - Post#2650353    
    In response to BigDogSS

Bigdogss,

My sons 89 formula has the 350 also in it and starter went out we got a OEM one from autozone and was getting same issues your nephew is having with the heat soak, son would have to wait a good 30mins before car would start. We did try the wrap and heat shield and same issues. We finally just went with a mini starter and no issues with it yes not stock as you want but helps. With mini starter size is not as close to headers as stock starter.
If we wanted to stay stock which sons car is not now engine mods we done, we probably would put in a remote solenoid this what your nephew may have to do?


Oh by the way the mini starter is straight bolt.

Tim
1957 Belair 4 door 38,000 actual miles on it.
1977 Firebird Formula 400 4speed
1989 Firebird Formula (sons car) 350 Holley Stealth ram
1990 GMC Jimmy 350 350 trans 6" lift on 35s
2006 HD Softail
2013 Sonic



Edited by 57ORG on 09-09-16 10:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4013

Reg: 12-29-02
09-14-16 07:19 AM - Post#2651265    
    In response to BigDogSS

You need to find out if the car is using a 153T or 168T flexplate first. You can get a PM 153T straight bolt pattern starter from a LT1 or you can get the 168T version from a Vortec truck application.

The only possible concern with using a newer starter is that the solenoid may not have the R terminal used to provide full battery voltage to the coil while cranking the engine. You can add a relay to get around this but I doubt this particular application requires the R terminal.



 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
09-14-16 08:34 AM - Post#2651281    
    In response to 65_Impala

Thanks for the reply. Is the "R" terminal only required for points ignition? We have converted this car to use a standard GM HEI distributor.

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



Edited by BigDogSS on 09-14-16 08:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4013

Reg: 12-29-02
09-15-16 09:33 AM - Post#2651484    
    In response to BigDogSS

I've only seen the R terminal used with points ignition systems.



 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
09-15-16 10:37 AM - Post#2651492    
    In response to 65_Impala

OK, Thanks!

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



 
wagonman100 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 13996
wagonman100
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
10-14-16 06:53 PM - Post#2656569    
    In response to BigDogSS

The remote solenoid is a very good way to cure heat soak. Some consider it a band-aid, but I have done it on 4 cars and they never had heat soak problems again.

Jay
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.

1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon


 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 27357
Rick_L
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
11-28-16 07:23 PM - Post#2663647    
    In response to wagonman100

Heat soak is very overrated. The problem is usually a junk rebuilt starter, or a bad battery or cables.

Heat soak or not, the 90s and newer GM permanent magnet starters are far and away better than the old school starters, even the ones with the extra windings.

One oddity I've seen on these starters is that one from a 94 Z28 had a nonserviceable solenoid, it was permanently part of the starter. However the other two I've messed with, a 95 Z28, and a 95 pickup, did have a serviceable solenoid.

I am told that LS starters can also be used, but I've never attempted to verify that.




 
wagonman100 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 13996
wagonman100
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
11-28-16 10:17 PM - Post#2663677    
    In response to Rick_L

I have the newer style starter and the separate solenoid on my El Camino. Heat soak is real. I never had starter trouble on my old Malibu Classic until I changed from exhaust manifolds to headers. I had new cables and battery and the same starter. Plenty of grounds as well. I had the battery grounded to the engine and the engine grounded to the frame and the body all with good contact. Heat soak problem went away immediately with the separate solenoid and never came back.

Jay
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.

1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon


 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
11-30-16 09:47 AM - Post#2663913    
    In response to wagonman100

  • wagonman100 Said:
.... Heat soak problem went away immediately with the separate solenoid and never came back.


Is your solenoid attached to the starter or remotely mounted, like a Ford?


    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



 
wagonman100 
Super Senior Member
Posts: 13996
wagonman100
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Reg: 11-27-04
12-03-16 08:44 AM - Post#2664376    
    In response to BigDogSS

Remote mounted. Mine is on the inner fender. I've done this conversion on three of my own cars and a couple of my friends cars and the problem always goes away.

Jay
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.

1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon


 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4013

Reg: 12-29-02
12-04-16 07:05 PM - Post#2664604    
    In response to wagonman100

The remote solenoid adds a new Ford style solenoid. The old solenoid remains on the starter. The purpose is to provide more current to the starter mounted solenoid so it will engage. The root cause of the problem it solves is the stock wiring having too much resistance to provide the current and voltage necessary to engage the solenoid when it is hot. The resistance of the solenoid goes up when it is hot so it requires the same current but more voltage to engage.



 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 27357
Rick_L
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
12-06-16 08:17 PM - Post#2664925    
    In response to 65_Impala

The Ford solenoid does NOT supply more current. It avoids voltage drop to the solenoid. The current will be whatever it is to get the POWER required (voltage x current) to pull the Chevy solenoid windings and turn the starter. When the voltage drops, more current is required. If the voltage doesn't drop, less current is required. Also, the speed of the starter motor is proportional to voltage. So with less voltage drop, the motor spins faster.

The advantage of a permanent magnet, gear drive starter is twofold. The gears provide torque, and the permanent magnets require less current.



 
65_Impala 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 4013

Reg: 12-29-02
12-06-16 10:11 PM - Post#2664942    
    In response to Rick_L

  • Rick_L Said:
The Ford solenoid does NOT supply more current. It avoids voltage drop to the solenoid. The current will be whatever it is to get the POWER required (voltage x current) to pull the Chevy solenoid windings and turn the starter. When the voltage drops, more current is required. If the voltage doesn't drop, less current is required. Also, the speed of the starter motor is proportional to voltage. So with less voltage drop, the motor spins faster.

The advantage of a permanent magnet, gear drive starter is twofold. The gears provide torque, and the permanent magnets require less current.



The sentences I underlined are simply wrong. The solenoid is not a constant power device and only constant power devices vary their current draw inversely proportional to voltage. The solenoid pull-in or energizing current will be higher when you apply a higher voltage.

The solenoid is an electromagnet and the strength of the magnetic field is proportional to the current. So, the only way to get it to energize is to ensure enough current reaches it. Raising the voltage to lower the current makes no sense because that would weaken the magnetic field trying to pull in the plunger.

The stock wiring is weak and has a voltage drop when you energize the solenoid. It works fine when cold because even with the lower voltage reaching the solenoid the current is still high enough to energize the solenoid. It does not work when hot because the hot solenoid winding has a higher resistance which requires more voltage to get the same current through the hot solenoid winding. BUT, the stock wiring has too much voltage drop to be able to supply the required current. So, when you hit the solenoid with a stronger voltage source the solenoid gets the current it needs and pulls the plunger in.

In case you didn't know, the solenoid has 2 windings in it. There is a heavy low resistance pull-in winding connected between the S terminal and the starter motor power terminal. This winding is only energized until the solenoid pulls-in and engages the starter motor. There is also a lighter higher resistance holding winding that is always energized and just has to create a strong enough magnetic field to keep the solenoid pulled-in. These windings will typically require about 27-28A to pull the solenoid in. From the testing I've done I found that the solenoid requires about 9V to energize when cold but it will require 10V or more to energize when hot. So, believe it or not, when you have the GM "heat soak" issue the purple wire at the solenoid is providing < 10V to the solenoid.

The PM starter having a much smaller solenoid which requires a much lower current to pull-in is what fixes the GM "heat soak" problem. The other advantages are simply a bonus when using a PM starter to fix this problem.




 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27486
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
12-08-16 10:20 AM - Post#2665159    
    In response to 65_Impala

  • 65_Impala Said:
.....The stock wiring is weak and has a voltage drop when you energize the solenoid. It works fine when cold because even with the lower voltage reaching the solenoid the current is still high enough to energize the solenoid. It does not work when hot because the hot solenoid winding has a higher resistance which requires more voltage to get the same current through the hot solenoid winding. BUT, the stock wiring has too much voltage drop to be able to supply the required current. So, when you hit the solenoid with a stronger voltage source the solenoid gets the current it needs and pulls the plunger in.....


Finally, someone else gets it right! Thank, you, thank you, thank you!.

I would add that GM designed the cranking circuit to work as built, but it didn't have much reserve capacity to allow for component deterioration. Over time, corrosion slowly increases contact resistance at the blade terminals on the ignition switch, neutral switch (if present) and the firewall connectors. That's why these cars have "heat soak" cranking issues now even though they didn't when they were new.

Mopars (at least in the 60s) avoided this problem by using a relay to switch the solenoid current, and are pretty much trouble-free even now.

Since Mopar had the right idea, my preferred fix is to install a cube relay near the starter to switch the solenoid current. That way, the external cranking circuit has to carry only the relay coil current, which is no more than a fraction of an amp. The popular Ford solenoid will of course also fix the problem, and for the same reason, but is overkill the way it is usually wired, because there is no need for it to switch the starter current too.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
WagonCrazy 
"11th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 3064
WagonCrazy
Loc: So Cal
Reg: 06-07-05
12-12-16 08:35 AM - Post#2665695    
    In response to raycow

  • Quote:
my preferred fix is to install a cube relay near the starter to switch the solenoid current. That way, the external cranking circuit has to carry only the relay coil current, which is no more than a fraction of an amp.



Ray, Can you draw up a simple diagram of how this wiring would be done and post that please?

57 Nomad -LS1 with C4 suspension
59 Apache Fleetside Shortbed BigWindow



 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27486
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
12-13-16 09:34 AM - Post#2665890    
    In response to WagonCrazy

  • WagonCrazy Said:
Ray, Can you draw up a simple diagram of how this wiring would be done and post that please?


I can draw the diagram, but I have no way to post it. The best I can do is give you a written description.

You will need a 30A cube relay with either 4 or 5 terminals. It doesn't matter which, because you will be using only 4. The relay will look something like this.
https://www.amazon.com/RELAY-BOSCH-30AMP-SPD T-12V/...

Mount the relay near the starter to keep the wire runs short, but in a place that will be easy to reach for wiring and will also keep the wires away from the exhaust manifold.

Remove the purple wire from the solenoid and extend it as needed to connect to #86 on the relay. Run a wire from #87 on the relay to the solenoid terminal you removed the purple wire from. Run a wire from #30 on the relay to the battery cable terminal on the solenoid. Run a wire from #85 on the relay to ground.

That completes the wiring. The wires on #87 and #30 should be at least 12 ga. The wires on #86 and #85 can be 18 ga. because they only have to carry the relay coil current.

Any questions?

Ray


Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
08-03-17 06:17 AM - Post#2702632    
    In response to BigDogSS

  • BigDogSS Said:
OK, so my nephew has a GMPP 350/290HP with TH350 in his 1961 Bel Air and is having heat-soak issues with his starter. I'm unsure if it is staggered or straight bolt hole pattern.
I've heard Chevrolet now uses "permanent magnet" starters that impervious the common heat issues.
What engines should I obtain a starter from? Vortec? LT1(1990s)? LS?
We want to stick with GM --> no aftermarket starters.
What about wiring it up? any concerns?
Thanks!


Hi All,
UPDATE: Last night, installed a NEW permanent magnet, gear reduction starter. At RockAuto.com, I entered in a 1999 Chevrolet C1500 w/ 5.7 engine. Here is the list of starters: Link. Apparently, this was at a time when GM was transitioning from the old direct-drive starters to the permanent magnet, gear reduction starters, so they were both available in 1999. You want the permanent magnet, gear reduction starter.
We ended up getting the Remy P/N 96206. This is a staggered-bolt, 168-tooth starter. This BRAND NEW starter was cheaper than the cheapest local chain-store rebuilt starter, and NO CORE CHARGE. We bought new starter bolts from the Chevrolet dealer. It bolted up easily, due to it's size and weight. We carefully taped up the wire for the "R" terminal and hooked up the rest of the wiring. Super-simple installation.
It starts awesome! Thank you to everyone who chimed in on this subject.
IMO, this should be a an MUST-DO upgrade, much like switching to electronic ignition.

    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



Edited by BigDogSS on 08-03-17 03:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BigDogSS 
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4598
BigDogSS
Loc: SoCal
Reg: 12-21-01
05-31-18 08:51 AM - Post#2735485    
    In response to BigDogSS

Summary:
153 Tooth straight bolt pattern starter from a 1996 Caprice w/LT1 5.7. Rock Auto link: Link

168 Tooth staggered bolt pattern starter from a 1999 C1500 w/Vortec 5.7. Rock Auto link: Link


    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible - Ermine White C1
    1967 Chevrolet Impala SS 396 - Marina Blue FF



Edited by BigDogSS on 05-31-18 08:53 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 




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