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Username Post: Smokin' 1964 409 Impala        (Topic#333247)
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
02-19-16 04:54 PM - Post#2610040    

Well I have this car in the shop now and will be going over with the owner about how to proceed. I'm sure there will be a difference of opinion lol.

The rear quarters were installed by a collision repair shop...now I'm tasked to finish the job.

It also need floor pans and braces.

Oh, and an interior and a top lol.

"She ain't much to look at, but she'll get ya where you're going"

I'll let the pics speak,





















And the trunk lid had all the insulation from in between the outer skin and inner bracing melted away.

























lots of fun stuff ahead!




cheers

Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



 
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fuzz1957 
Contributor
Posts: 550

Loc: NE IA
Reg: 02-18-08
02-19-16 08:17 PM - Post#2610091    
    In response to Sauceman

Yes, looks like lots to do. In the pictures, I noticed the dash had no tachometer. Didn't all 409 cars come with a tachometer? Just wondering if that is correct.

Fuzz




 
64ss409 
Senior Member
Posts: 888

Loc: Montana
Reg: 12-04-02
02-19-16 11:45 PM - Post#2610115    
    In response to fuzz1957

No tach with the PG cars unless it was special ordered.
Ron

1964 SS 409/340 4 spd, bought new Oct '63 from Ken Boggs Chevrolet, Geraldine, Montana


 
gofastwclass 
Contributor
Posts: 888

Loc: In the garage
Reg: 08-19-14
02-20-16 02:28 AM - Post#2610125    
    In response to Sauceman

  • Sauceman Said:
I'm sure there will be a difference of opinion lol.



Isn't there always?

I see a totally savable project, but I'm not there in person.

I also won't give my unfiltered opinion on the "body shop" repairs beyond it's probably the same as yours.



1961 Impala mild custom build

I build my own stuff...


 
rrausch 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13529
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
02-20-16 10:30 AM - Post#2610204    
    In response to gofastwclass

Personally I'd replace the trunk lid. Reason being if it got so hot as to melt the insulation then the metal between the skin and the ribs is unprotected and will rust out eventually--maybe sooner, maybe later depending on moisture and conditions. I went through the same thing with a truck door once.

1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
0utlaw 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2777
0utlaw
Loc: US East Coast
Reg: 09-10-02
02-20-16 11:56 AM - Post#2610215    
    In response to Sauceman

Going to be a real pretty car when finished.

If you can weld ice cream, you can fix anything!


 
Sweed62 
Senior Member
Posts: 1101
Sweed62
Loc: NotUS.Language warning#1
Reg: 10-24-04
02-20-16 03:26 PM - Post#2610254    
    In response to Sauceman

It looks like a convertibel in a pretty good shape to me.

It looks to me that the new quarter is placed outside the rocker, and i do believe it should be inside.

Trunk lid edge looks pretty rusty.

Strange hammering to quarter at rearest pillar, for a collision repair shop.

Can the floor be patched?

All floor braces gone?

Whats your questions?

Svenne




 
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
02-20-16 05:37 PM - Post#2610279    
    In response to Sweed62

  • Sweed62 Said:
It looks like a convertible in a pretty good shape to me.



Yep, she runs really well.

  • Sweed62 Said:
It looks to me that the new quarter is placed outside the rocker, and i do believe it should be inside.



Yep, major mistake. This will be an interesting repair.

  • Sweed62 Said:
Trunk lid edge looks pretty rusty.



It's not bad, the issue is the lack of bonding between the outer skin and inner bracing.

  • Sweed62 Said:
Strange hammering to quarter at rearest pillar, for a collision repair shop.



The convertible 1/4s are not available so you have to make the hardtop ones work. And since the collision shop over quoted the price of a paint job they were not too keen on doing quality work.

  • Sweed62 Said:
Can the floor be patched?



Yes new floor is being installed.

  • Sweed62 Said:
All floor braces gone?



Just the centre 4 short ones, for the seat mounts I believe. the front and rear braces are good.

  • Sweed62 Said:
What's your questions?



Well I didn't ask one, but if I must, on Canadian built cars did they stamp the serial number from the car on to the block?



Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



 
Pete P 
"7th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 422
Pete P
Loc: westerly R.I.
Reg: 12-14-08
02-20-16 06:23 PM - Post#2610286    
    In response to Sauceman

It looks like most of it is there. And should be a serious project. Good luck with it. Pete P

Pete P.
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/211819 6...


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6633
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
02-22-16 04:23 AM - Post#2610590    
    In response to Pete P

On a Canadian car, they had an engine number on the block stamping. Not sure about 64, but 62 and 63 had it this way.

GM Vintage in Ontario can get you that number, and likely all the options on a 64 and up. I have the info they provide for 63 and 62, not as detailed, but I think 64 and up they can provide almost a "build sheet".

Don

63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
Chevy 4 Life 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1393

Reg: 03-14-14
02-22-16 07:26 AM - Post#2610637    
    In response to DonSSDD

I tell you what bud, I definitely give you the credit for the effort it will take on this project. Good luck and wish you the best



 
WarrenL 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1189
WarrenL
Loc: Hebron, ME
Reg: 11-17-04
02-22-16 03:24 PM - Post#2610749    
    In response to Chevy 4 Life

Can you post a picture of the engine pad?



 
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
03-01-16 03:16 PM - Post#2612484    
    In response to Chevy 4 Life

Got some more done today. Started cutting out the floor boards. There were two separate repairs done over the years, the first using brazing rod, the second with rivets and tar!

pic time,



Had to remove the rear braces to be able to get the floor pan in.





A little bit of inner rocker work required.




cheers

Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



 
stingray caretaker 
Contributor
Posts: 418

Loc: Midwest
Reg: 11-19-12
03-01-16 04:35 PM - Post#2612498    
    In response to Sauceman

I hope there is a magician in your shop. The deeper you go the better it gets ( I bet ! ). Can't imagine the hours one can estimate to get it in straight primer. This is a very desirable and expensive vehicle when completed. I think one could get upside down easily on this project. Good luck .



 
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
03-02-16 03:08 PM - Post#2612679    
    In response to stingray caretaker

  • stingray caretaker Said:
I hope there is a magician in your shop. The deeper you go the better it gets ( I bet ! ). Can't imagine the hours one can estimate to get it in straight primer. This is a very desirable and expensive vehicle when completed. I think one could get upside down easily on this project. Good luck .



I quoted him 130 hours to replace the floor pans and get it ready for paint.

Got the rest of the drivers side floor removed and welded up the inner rockers today.

Total time so far, 16 hours.




The scraps so far;



All patched up,





cheers

Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



 
gofastwclass 
Contributor
Posts: 888

Loc: In the garage
Reg: 08-19-14
03-02-16 03:22 PM - Post#2612681    
    In response to Sauceman

Nice work, thanks for the pictures. The car looks fairly solid overall.

I need to replace my floors as soon as I get my friends car to the trim shop.

1961 Impala mild custom build

I build my own stuff...


 
BG64SS409 
Contributor
Posts: 639
BG64SS409
Loc: Edmonton,Alberta Canada
Reg: 05-03-08
03-03-16 04:01 AM - Post#2612781    
    In response to gofastwclass

You got your work cut out for you... I am afraid that the deeper you get, the worse it will get. 130 Hrs is going to be light.
That, and the owner hasn't even got into the engine compartment... it would appear to be a 348, not a 409, without the proper fan shroud, and a few other "easy" fixes..
The Canadian cars to my knowledge did not have the VIN number stamped on the block.
348-409.com will have all the casting codes etc to determine the actual engine, and if it does turn out to be a 409, then perhaps GM historical services can give you some insight as to whether the car was born with it..or what it was born with.

Brett

64SS Impala,Original documented numbers matching 1 of 36 Canadian made SS409 340hp/PG
2013 Callaway Suburban, supercharged 450hp


 
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
03-03-16 04:15 AM - Post#2612782    
    In response to BG64SS409

Well it's a real 409 block,



According to 348-409 website

http://www.348-409.com/cgi-bin/block/csvsear ch.pl?...


Block# 3844422
Year used: 1964
Model: Passenger car
Engine: 409
Horsepower: 340,400,425
Bore: 4.3125
Stroke: 3.50
Main Journal: 2.50
Rod Journal: 2.20
Notes: This block was used for all 409 applications in 1964. This block has the "X" on the front.


And I'm doing nothing else but the body work and floors, no other detailing or interior etc.



cheers

Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



Edited by Sauceman on 03-03-16 04:20 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 6633
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
03-03-16 06:26 PM - Post#2612929    
    In response to BG64SS409

  • BG64SS409 Said:
You got your work cut out for you... I am afraid that the deeper you get, the worse it will get. 130 Hrs is going to be light.
That, and the owner hasn't even got into the engine compartment... it would appear to be a 348, not a 409, without the proper fan shroud, and a few other "easy" fixes..
The Canadian cars to my knowledge did not have the VIN number stamped on the block.
348-409.com will have all the casting codes etc to determine the actual engine, and if it does turn out to be a 409, then perhaps GM historical services can give you some insight as to whether the car was born with it..or what it was born with.

Brett



Brett, my 62 283 has an "engine number" stamped on the front pad, 9V88749. No relation to VIN.


63 Pontiac Parisienne Sport Coupe(CDN Chev mechanically (409, 4 speed),62 Bel Air SC (sold), 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold), 63 SWC Vette (sold),
Member #2194


 
BG64SS409 
Contributor
Posts: 639
BG64SS409
Loc: Edmonton,Alberta Canada
Reg: 05-03-08
03-03-16 10:36 PM - Post#2612960    
    In response to DonSSDD

Sauceman


The reason I commented about the 409, is that it would seem to have a 348 oil pan on it if nothing else, and usually when the shroud is missing, the engine is usually a transplant... nonetheless not your issue I guess.. block appears legit. Stamp number would still be cool to know though..!

You bet Don... of course there will be a block stamp, but he asked about a serial/VIN number...Tonowanda didn't know the recipient cars' VIN, and to my understanding the Canadian car plant did not bother to stamp it on while installing it.

Brett

64SS Impala,Original documented numbers matching 1 of 36 Canadian made SS409 340hp/PG
2013 Callaway Suburban, supercharged 450hp


 
stingray caretaker 
Contributor
Posts: 418

Loc: Midwest
Reg: 11-19-12
03-04-16 09:21 AM - Post#2613016    
    In response to Sauceman

130 hours ........ I would think by the time it is in primer ready for paint that number could triple . Depending on how nice the customer wants it. Friend that does pentastar restorations has 5 to 600 hours in sheet metal ( inside, outside, and bottom ) as an average. I haven't seen one in this condition come through his door. I would not say this is average.
Again, a very desirable car that is worthy of a quality rebuild. Many eyes will be fixed on the final product. Your skill level is appropriate , hope you can make up the time on solid less time consuming tasks.
The last shop gave you a real head start, ... if you don't have to rework their work.



 
stingray caretaker 
Contributor
Posts: 418

Loc: Midwest
Reg: 11-19-12
03-04-16 09:28 AM - Post#2613017    
    In response to BG64SS409

  • BG64SS409 Said:
Saucema
You bet Don... of course there will be a block stamp, but he asked about a serial/VIN number...Tonowanda didn't know the recipient cars' VIN, and to my understanding the Canadian car plant did not bother to stamp it on while installing it.
Brett



With that bit of information that total of 36 will be 136 shortly depending on values. If they hit the high water mark counterfeiters will be pounding out 409s and 283s will be rare. I have viewed repo paperwork aged and in correct type. I have seen hardtops changed into convertibles. The dollar seems to be an ultimate goal of some crafters.



 
BG64SS409 
Contributor
Posts: 639
BG64SS409
Loc: Edmonton,Alberta Canada
Reg: 05-03-08
03-04-16 10:13 AM - Post#2613023    
    In response to stingray caretaker

I agree... Thank God the powers that be at GM Canada took it upon themselves to keep records of their builds.

A buyer of a Canadian built car does not have to rely upon a sellers word that it was born with a 409. Now, if perhaps, a cloner had a legit 409 engine, then just happened to be able get his or her hands on a legit 409 VIN for an engine built on that day, the same engine that matched the car, with the same transmission, carb etc., then yes... a clone could be born without doubt....Getting in to depth with casting codes etc is another way to further reconcile the probability/ possibility, but not really a way to confirm the "born with" status
The fly in the ointment for any cloner up here is GM historical services, and their ability to put it all together. Any self respecting buyer up here for about $60.00 can get genuine confirmation in a day or two.
Seems like a lot of work, and even more luck to create a Canadian "numbers" car. I suppose someone could fake the documentation, but when spending large, wouldn't most buyers take advantage of the GM resource regardless of the sellers claim?
Our friends to the South have no such luxury for this scenario..

64SS Impala,Original documented numbers matching 1 of 36 Canadian made SS409 340hp/PG
2013 Callaway Suburban, supercharged 450hp


 
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
03-06-16 05:35 AM - Post#2613370    
    In response to BG64SS409

Well got some more work done, the right side inner rocker was a little more rusted than the left,









Those captured nuts on the crossmember for the body mounts will have to be transferred over to the new brace.



More ickyness,



The pile keeps growing,



Inner rocker cut out,



New metal going in,



Working on the inner-inner rocker.



Almost fixed, one more little section to replace,



Action shot, cutting out the last of the floor.



Until next time!



cheers

Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



 
Chevy 4 Life 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1393

Reg: 03-14-14
03-06-16 06:49 AM - Post#2613388    
    In response to Sauceman

Here my 61 has less then 10% rust and it is enough to deter me from spending high money to do extensive metal work and painting. God Bless you my friend, that is all I can say. Keep up the good work



 
gofastwclass 
Contributor
Posts: 888

Loc: In the garage
Reg: 08-19-14
03-06-16 06:50 AM - Post#2613389    
    In response to Sauceman

Very nice. Thanks again for the photos.

1961 Impala mild custom build

I build my own stuff...


 
stingray caretaker 
Contributor
Posts: 418

Loc: Midwest
Reg: 11-19-12
03-06-16 11:35 AM - Post#2613453    
    In response to Sauceman

I am surprised the frame didn't collapse. Looks like the rocker strength is near non existent . When there is so much decay how do you weld to the adjacent thin metal ? This could never be placed on a rotissery without ending up in two pieces.
Your a " brave rust eater " for sure. Hard to watch the full cycle of metal returning to earth.



 
Sauceman 
Contributor
Posts: 104
Sauceman
Loc: Napanee, Ontario
Reg: 08-29-15
03-06-16 06:00 PM - Post#2613577    
    In response to stingray caretaker

You're welcome for the pics, this also helps me document the repairs for my customers.

  • stingray caretaker Said:
I am surprised the frame didn't collapse. Looks like the rocker strength is near non existent . When there is so much decay how do you weld to the adjacent thin metal ? This could never be placed on a rotissery without ending up in two pieces.
Your a " brave rust eater " for sure. Hard to watch the full cycle of metal returning to earth.



Don't forget, these cars have the X-Frame, so the structural support for the frame is down the center of the car, the rockers provide support for the body. And yes being a convertible these rockers are very structurally important. When I first lifted it on my 2 post hoist (first getting the owners permission) the upper rear gap on the doors opened up about another 3/8 of an inch when the weight was lifted (with the doors closed, would never try this with open doors LOL). We'll see after all the repairs how it performs in that test.

This is also why it's a necessity to brace up vehicles, especially convertibles, when repairing/replacing any body or frame pieces.

In regards to a rotisserie, I do have one but I don't use it for rust repair just for that reason. These cars were assembled on a line, not hanging with only the attachment points on the ends. I do all the structural repairs on a level surface (in this case with all the weight on the suspension) and then move it to the rotisserie for body work and paint. Also this way you know everything will line up (body mounts etc.)



cheers


Good judgement comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgement.

Yugoslavia '94' , Israel/Syria '99 , Bosnia '02 , Afghanistan '08-'09



Edited by Sauceman on 03-06-16 06:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BG64SS409 
Contributor
Posts: 639
BG64SS409
Loc: Edmonton,Alberta Canada
Reg: 05-03-08
03-06-16 07:34 PM - Post#2613594    
    In response to Sauceman

Nice work!


Brett

64SS Impala,Original documented numbers matching 1 of 36 Canadian made SS409 340hp/PG
2013 Callaway Suburban, supercharged 450hp


 
stingray caretaker 
Contributor
Posts: 418

Loc: Midwest
Reg: 11-19-12
03-06-16 08:10 PM - Post#2613604    
    In response to Sauceman

Your adding new metal to areas that are near depleted in their function. Five years from now ( or less ) some areas that looked solid may change their course and fail due to inner non detected decay. As much as your replacing I applaud your practice. Its not a final elimination of demise in some cases. This is the reason I buy west coast vehicles with minimal rust. I have viewed many repaired vehicles with 6k paint work start to bubble within a few years . If your fixing to flip its more of a common practice. Classic cars are a huge business and of course who warranties inner body rust ?
It is a reason I never buy those " look like new " older examples of transportation. One can never trust a western state title as a resident for life of a rust free environment. Living in the midwest where winter salt mixed with sand create a self destructive potion I am aware of the consequences.
I recently viewed a 62 Biscayne big block post car restored several years prior. The gorgeous red paint was showing tiny paint blisters. To a degree it is an on going process with a high percentage of continuation in cases of " fix what you see " and paint the remainder. Cost is always a factor. I would never expect a shop to give an estimate of hours by visual inspection in cases of serious rust related issues. It adds frustration to the shop trying to hurry the goal and please a customer. The customer assumes the bottom line is " well padded " and the cost should remain the same or less that estimated. All of us would like the shop to remain in business by making a profit. No one wants to hear about the overhead involved providing these services.
Were in a period of time where skilled craftsman are disappearing as many prefer the desk in an office or sales positions. I grew up in an era of workers repairing fenders and doors. Today we throw them away purchasing low cost reproductions. The skill of rebuilding an older style classic has owners shopping for qualified facilities .
Sorry for the rant. Just giving credit well deserved.



 
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