Jalapeno
Member #252
Posts: 9919
Loc: The Hill Country of Texas
Reg: 04-30-00
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09-15-14 03:01 PM - Post#2484240
I came across this link to a "brag site" for someone's 57 FI convertible.
http://www.kennagelclassiccars.com/1957-chevy-bela...
Now, it's a nice car, and the owner has a right to be proud of it. But in this article there are so many little details that are incorrect, I found them distracting.
The article cites data that I am not sure where it came from ("one of 5", etc.) and data that is plain wrong ("VINs started with 1001 in 1957").
Looking at the pics I can see a lot of things not done very well (lower plate on the crossmember is caved in, a common thing on an unrestored or poorly restored car), and some aftermarket parts like the power steering control valve on the centerlink (it's a replacement type valve not an original valve).
I really don't like to pick apart someone else's ride, but there is such a large amount of hubris displayed in the article and that it just begs for other more knowledgeable people to contribute their 2 cents.
I invite anyone to take a look and point out any other inconsistencies, in the data and on the car.
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 Sting Ray
"19th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 3043
Loc: Westwood Hills, Kansas
Reg: 02-19-05
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09-15-14 03:23 PM - Post#2484248
In response to Jalapeno
Modern battery.  I can't really tell what the little things wrong are, one nice car tho.
Bleeds Chevy Orange
1955 Bel Air hardtop, 327, 4-spd, tilt front end
1964 Corvette two top convert, 327, 4-spd
1967 El Camino, 427, 4-spd
2022 Corvette coupe, Arctic white, red stripes, 3LT Morello Napa leather |
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Richard Martin
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5568
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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09-15-14 04:09 PM - Post#2484260
In response to Jalapeno
Thank you for posting this. Upon reading "Only 5 of the 39 Matador Red Fulies were fitted with an automatic transmission." I almost stopped reading. After the "245 horsepower" Fuel Injected engine I had to quit.
Richard
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DZAUTO
Member #51
Posts: 9298
Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
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09-15-14 06:02 PM - Post#2484277
In response to Richard Martin
Most of you know that I have sworn off of responding to ANY of the 55-57 sections because of grief from a##h%!&s. BUUUUUUUT, because Steve and Richard are involved on this one, I'm including my .02cents.
It is generally semi-accepted that 1,506 57 pass cars were built with fuel injection and 1,040 57 Corvettes were built with FI. The breakdown of 250/283 FI quantities for pass cars is not clear, nor is auto tranny vs 3sp tranny quantities clear. What is clear (again, semi-accepted), is the FI quantities for each model/body style for pass cars. In those quantities, it is accepted that there were 68 convertibles with FI. Of those 68 FI convertibles, it is NOT clear how many had 250hp or 283hp FI engines, nor how many had PG/TG trannys or 3sp trannys. But what IS CLEAR, is that if a pass car got the 283/283 engine (solid lifter FI), IT DID GET A 3SP TRANNY (NO FACTORY build 57 pass car got a 4sp)! The solid lifter engines (270 or 283hp) were not available with an auto tranny.
Now, with that said, oddly enough, the quantities of BOTH solid/hyd FI engines and auto/3-4sp 57 Vettes IS KNOWN! Corvettes with auto trannys ONLY GOT PG (NO TG in Vettes) trannys.
182 with Hyd/3-4sp (4sp was not available in Vettes until AFTER June 9)
102 with Hyd/PG
756 with Solid/3-4sp tranny (43 of those were Airbox cars).
While we're at it, here is the remainder of FI units installed in 57 GM cars.
600 Pontiacs (ALL were auto tranny---400 in 58)
5 Cadillacs (no known survivors)
At least ONE Olds (possible existance is unknown).
By the way, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 57 FI Ponts were Bonneville convertibles ONLY!
Regarding that VIN beginning with 1001 (by the say, it is abundantly clear that this guy IS NOT a knowledgeable FI person!!!!!).
EACH, repeat, EACH model of FI unit (NOT the VIN of the car) began with 1001. For example, the FIRST model of 57 FI unit was the 7014360 (FI units are commonly referred to by their last 4 digits-----------all of them began with 701 through the end of FI production in 65). BUUUUUUUUUUUUT, during EARLY production of the 4360 units, they were stamped on the plenum--------they DID NOT have a tag riveted on the left front of the plenum. The second FI model was the 4520 and it began with 1001. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS, as always, there has to be an exception to everything. The 4520 units were INTENDED to be used only on hyd lifter engines. BUT, there were not sufficient quantities of 4360 units to install on solid lifter engines, thus, the 4520 units (some of them) were calibrated for installation on the solid lifter engines and those units began with 2001. Soooooooooooo, there were sort of two different 4520 units-----one for hyd engines and one for solid engines.
The third 57 FI unit was the 4800-----------it was used on hyd cam engines only. The forth and last 57 FI unit was the 4960. The 4960 was identical in every way to the 4800 unit ------------- EXCEPT ------------ it was calibrated richer for the solid lifter engine.
In additional to the above, there were also a FEW (VERY few) service FI units available from the Chevy Parts dept, as well as a few "training" units that were assigned to the GM Tech Centers.
I'm sure I've left out a few details, I have forgotten a lot.
It does not bother me that most people are not familiar with the details and differences of the FI units.
What REALLY disturbs me is those people who do NOT do the research, have never touched an FI unit, piggy back on the information given in past publications (which has FREQUENTLY been inaccurate), just plain don't know what they are talking about, but profess to be all knowledgeable about FI and FI cars!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are the people that I want to b!tch slap, because they publish inaccuracies and then the younger people who want to learn are provided the wrong information!!!!
Oh yes, I almost forgot.
ANY 57 pass PRODUCTION car built with FI prior to the LAST day of Feb is bogus. PERIOD! I don't care what an original owner tells you, it's bogus!
ONLY, ONLY, ONLY 57 Corvettes got the FIRST FI unit (4360). NO, NO, NO, NO, NO production 57 pass cars got a 4360 unit FROM THE FACTORY! The very first FI unit that was FACTORY INSTALLED on a pass car was the 4520 ----------------------- AND IT WAS NOT RELEASED FOR INSTALLATION UNTIL FEB 28, 1957!
YA, YA, YA, YA, YA, YA, YA, I know, there is going to be someone jump in here and point out that the there were 57 FI cars running at Daytona in Feb 57. YES, those were factory built cars, BUUUUUUUUUUUT, they all went to SEDCO to be setup for NASCAR racing. They WERE NOT sold as production cars to the public. And yes, THOSE CARS would have had 4360 units.
And here is one of the MOST BOGUS comments ----- "This was the first and only year Chevrolet offered a fuel-injected V-8 engine outside of the Corvette line". MOST everyone here knows that FI was an available option on FULL SIZE 58-59 pass cars!
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Richard Martin
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5568
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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09-15-14 07:07 PM - Post#2484300
In response to DZAUTO
Tom:
From what you said about the date of the first factory built Fuel Injected passenger cars may reinforce the theory/claim the Black Widows were originally delivered to SEDCO with engines that were not fuel injected. Smokey sort of hinted this but was not quite clear. The story line is the F. I. engines were crated and shipped to Smokey allowing him to go thru them and then ship them to SEDCO. One thing that is very clear Smokey actually did indicate one of reasons he quit Chevy and signed with Ford shortly after the Daytona race was because he was told to "park" his '57 race car and just maintain the SEDCO engines.
Richard
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cdmhenry
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2409
Loc: Minden, NV.
Reg: 09-14-00
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09-15-14 07:40 PM - Post#2484310
In response to DZAUTO
Tom,
Glad we found a topic to lure you out of the shadows. And when did you ever care about the noises made by censoredh*les anyway?
You're a valued contributor and most of us appreciate your studied input. For my part? Thank you very much sir!
Post away.
| Every Government Interference In The Economy Consists Of Giving Unearned Benefit, Extorted By Force, To Some People At The Expense Of Others - Ayn Rand |
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DZAUTO
Member #51
Posts: 9298
Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
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09-16-14 05:51 AM - Post#2484368
In response to Richard Martin
Richard,
Since SEDCO only existed for such a very short time, and since Smokey (as well as others) provided minimal information about the "back door" activities, cars, parts and engine assemblies, it is likely that after the years which have gone by, we may never know the true story.
The ONLY thing that is known for a fact is that some 57 Chevys raced with FI units BEFORE they were built during REGULAR production and BEFORE NASCAR disapproved anything except for a single 4bl carb.
Also, after the SEDCO cars were first involved in racing and NASCAR mandated removal of the FI, the cars underwent various changes throughout their racing period. Thus, it would be extremely difficult to replicate a perfect example of a 57 FI SEDCO car as it was during the 57 Daytona race.
Last, I'm not aware of any FACTUAL documentation of the true configuration of the SEDCO cars BEFORE their arrival in Atlanta by rail (cars delivered by rail are not quite as accessible for examination as they would be if delivered by truck). Soooooooooooooooo, exactly how many 57 black and white 150 sedans were delivered to SEDCO with what engines, how many FI engines were delivered and with what FI units (PROBABLY 4360 units), what internal engine tweaks were done by GM, what and how many "Heavy Duty" parts were supplied, how (exactly) were the bodies/chassis modified, etc, etc, etc????? A lot IS known, but not everything is known. But for sure, A WELL BUILT "BLACK WIDOW" TRIBUTE CAR WILL BRING TOP DOLLAR! Just a PROPERLY built/restored FI unit that is 100% ready to bolt on (I DO NOT mean Ebay junk) will bring more than the price of three cars when built with FI.
This is what a correctly restored FI unit should look like.
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nstlga
"20th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 937
Loc: Colorado
Reg: 12-01-05
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09-16-14 11:48 AM - Post#2484459
In response to DZAUTO
Great posts Tom and Richard. Always informative. Thanks!
| He who dies with the most toys doesn't necessarily win, but had more fun getting to the finish line. |
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Bel_AirAmerica
Contributor
Posts: 751
Loc: Evansville,Ind.U.S.A.
Reg: 05-09-02
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09-16-14 03:04 PM - Post#2484479
In response to DZAUTO
 I don't know about anybody else,but I always enjoyed the heck out of your posts,even though most of it is way over my head.Thanks again.
Rick
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cdmhenry
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2409
Loc: Minden, NV.
Reg: 09-14-00
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09-16-14 08:15 PM - Post#2484539
In response to DZAUTO
Tom,
I see the plate in the photos, but the web resolution sucks and I can't read the stamping.
Is the unit in the photos a 4360?
| Every Government Interference In The Economy Consists Of Giving Unearned Benefit, Extorted By Force, To Some People At The Expense Of Others - Ayn Rand |
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DZAUTO
Member #51
Posts: 9298
Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
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09-16-14 08:17 PM - Post#2484541
In response to Bel_AirAmerica
Is there any interest in a list of pass car body styles that were factory built with FI?
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cdmhenry
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2409
Loc: Minden, NV.
Reg: 09-14-00
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09-16-14 08:23 PM - Post#2484543
In response to DZAUTO
Of course!
What would be equally interesting is how many at each assembly plant.
| Every Government Interference In The Economy Consists Of Giving Unearned Benefit, Extorted By Force, To Some People At The Expense Of Others - Ayn Rand |
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DZAUTO
Member #51
Posts: 9298
Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
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09-16-14 09:23 PM - Post#2484557
In response to cdmhenry
It is possible that this list is not absolutely 100% accurate, but it most likely 99.9% accurate. The person who accumulated this data is now deceased. When he put this together many years ago, there was not the presence of mind by enough people to encourage him to divulge his source(s) ------------------- but NO ONE has been able to dispute the accuracy of the list.
1957 PASSENGER CARS
QUANTITY---- BODY-------- STYLE ------------------- SERIES
156---------------150---- ----2dr sedan-------------------- --1502
3------------------150--- -----4dr sedan-------------------- --1503
0------------------150--- -----2dr Handyman wagon-------1529
22-----------------150--- ------2dr Utility sedan-------------1512
434---------------210---- ----2dr sedan-------------------- --2102
17-----------------210--- -----4dr sedan-------------------- ---2103
0------------------210--- ------2dr Handyman wagon--------2129
46-----------------210--- ------Delray club coupe (2dr)-----2124
85-----------------210--- ------2dr Hardtop------------------ -2154
6-------------------210-- -------4dr Townsman wgn (6pass)-2109
1-------------------210-- -------4dr Beauville wgn (9pass)---2119
10-----------------210--- -------4dr hardtop------------------ ---2113
524---------------BelAir- -----2dr Hardtop------------------ -2454
40-----------------BelAir ------2dr sedan-------------------- --2402
4------------------BelAir ------4dr sedan-------------------- ---2403
68-----------------BelAir ------Convertible-------- ------------2434
109----------------BelAir ------Nomad-------------- -----------2429
0------------------- BelAir ------4dr Townsman wgn (6pass)--2409
0------------------- BelAir -----4dr hardtop------------------ ---2413
5------------------Sedan delivery----------------- -------------1506
1530 Total 1957 pass cars with Fuel Injection
Now, this list raises some interesting questions. Look at the 150 2dr sedans and the 150 2dr utility sedans. That's a bunch of economical cars to have been built with a premium option (FI). Could the SEDCO cars be part of these quantities?? We may never know. MOST of the participants who were involved during that period are no longer with us. And the few who are still with us, may not have a totally clear memory. I know that I have forgot a lot over the years. Back in the day, it never occurred to me to take lots of notes and tons of pictures so that I could provide good information 50-60yrs later!
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cdmhenry
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2409
Loc: Minden, NV.
Reg: 09-14-00
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09-17-14 06:59 PM - Post#2484764
In response to DZAUTO
Thanks Tom!
I've seen this before and remember someone commenting,
Of the 1500 FI cars built only 2500 remain. -- Or something to that effect.
| Every Government Interference In The Economy Consists Of Giving Unearned Benefit, Extorted By Force, To Some People At The Expense Of Others - Ayn Rand |
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f.i.57chevynut
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1538
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
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09-17-14 09:18 PM - Post#2484788
In response to DZAUTO
I like Tom Parson's info and agree with most but this one is one that I have personal knowledge of. The list showing the number of each body style originally equipped Factory Fuel Injection is wrong on more than one body style I know of. First, The 150 wagon is listed as zero, but I have pictures of a car that was taken in 1972, of a 150 wagon with FI, originally owned by a known racer from Northern California, I believe his name was Ed Brown. This was his tow car. It was changed to a Hydramatic for towing duties. These pictures were taken in 1972 at a Northern California collector/ dealer, who also had a Z11 63 Chevy. The car was subsequently sold to a couple guys here in So Cal, one guy named Jimmy Arroyo. He and his partner( who also cloned a black widow in the 70's, mentioned in a previous post) restored the car back to a 3 speed and sold it. I heard it went to New York, but can't verify it. Anyone out there have any info on this car?
These are pictures of film pictures film so the quality isn't perfect.
Jumping to the Bel Airs, the list claims no Bel Air 4 door wagons, but in 1980 I bought a Sierra Gold Bel Air 4 door wagon from a wrecking yard in Del Norte Colorado. It was a Fuel injection car that the original engine and trans was missing but still had the left radiator filler panel with the grommet hole for the 2 hoses from the Trico electrovac pump and the mounting bracket holes for same, and the fuel injection emblems on both sides, painted over with a yellow paint job. The 3/8 fuel line was still intact but not the 3/8 line sending unit, probably changed out with a replacement gas tank. It also had the FI firewall throttle arm that was longer than the standard arm with a different ID mark and no hole for the Air Conditioning fast idle cable to hook to. I still have these parts.
Strangely enough the guy who has the car now called me from paperwork I had from the purchase that went with the car when I sold it. He now seems to want to restore it back to an FI car.
Now jumping to the 4 door hardtop, My buddy who taught me , as a teenager, lots of 57 stuff back in the 60's because he was a total 57 Chevy guy, who had a 57 Del Ray, bought in 58, a 210 4 door wagon that he raced in NHRA and AHRA in the mid 60's, a Bel Air 4 door hardtop 220hp NHRA racecar in 67, 210 2 door wagon, a 150 wagon (the white one in my avatar), drove a yellow 57 Bel Air 4 door hardtop that was on a used car lot on Sherman Way, near the Van Nuys Airport. It was a demonstrator car with every option they could put on it, continental kit , visor, wonder bar radio, spinners, power rear antenna, dual rear antennas, bumper guards, door handle shields, rear seat speaker, but the FI gas removed. The emblems were still in place and the 997 heads were still there. Also Dick Stelk, from the Denver area, now deceased, had a 4 door hardtop FI car, and he was the one who found out that the dealership in Colorado Springs that sold the local hotel on one but 2 Bel Air 4 door wagons with fuel injection, for their hotel shuttles.
Lastly, there were no sedan deliveries with FI, or dual quads. They were sold as trucks and the most powerful engine available was the 220hp option.
This list has been around for many years and there is no documentation for it. If there was Ken Keyser would have had it and published it in his book about fuel injection. He had access to a wealth of great info but none of these lists were ever uncovered.
I hate to see lists like this taken as fact, and repeated endlessly, just like nowadays the uneducated people call any 57 a Bel Air, or they call my 150 wagon a Nomad. I politely correct them and explain the difference, because this is how "old wife's tales" start.
Any input Brad?
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f.i.57chevynut
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1538
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
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09-18-14 01:37 PM - Post#2484940
In response to cdmhenry
Tom,
I see the plate in the photos, but the web resolution sucks and I can't read the stamping.
Is the unit in the photos a 4360?
Henry, the unit in the pictures is either a 57 4800 or 4960. The air cleaner adapter is a 58-62 Corvette.
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f.i.57chevynut
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1538
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
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09-18-14 01:48 PM - Post#2484947
In response to Jalapeno
I came across this link to a "brag site" for someone's 57 FI convertible.
http://www.kennagelclassiccars.com/1957-chevy-bela...
Now, it's a nice car, and the owner has a right to be proud of it. But in this article there are so many little details that are incorrect, I found them distracting.
The article cites data that I am not sure where it came from ("one of 5", etc.) and data that is plain wrong ("VINs started with 1001 in 1957").
Looking at the pics I can see a lot of things not done very well (lower plate on the crossmember is caved in, a common thing on an unrestored or poorly restored car), and some aftermarket parts like the power steering control valve on the centerlink (it's a replacement type valve not an original valve).
I really don't like to pick apart someone else's ride, but there is such a large amount of hubris displayed in the article and that it just begs for other more knowledgeable people to contribute their 2 cents.
I invite anyone to take a look and point out any other inconsistencies, in the data and on the car.
The balance tube from the fuel meter to the air cleaner is later than 57, should wrap around the lower front of the doghouse, below the enrichment diaphragm line. The oil cap is supposed to be cadmium plated. When you brag about Fuel Injection so much it should be correctly detailed with proper original style parts. All the numbers thrown around are a pipe dream. GM didn't keep such records on passenger cars.
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DZAUTO
Member #51
Posts: 9298
Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
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09-18-14 10:22 PM - Post#2485082
In response to f.i.57chevynut
Tom,
Much of Ken's information is a follow up of what Mike Hunt accumulated. And Ken does not dispute Mike's information, although, some of it cannot be verified because Mike is no longer with us.
Also, I pointed out that the list may not be 100% correct------------------ but to date, it's the best list available, or may ever be available.
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6-bangertim
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2218
Age: 66
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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09-23-14 02:13 PM - Post#2486096
In response to DZAUTO
THANK YOU BOTH - Mr. Parsons AND Mr. Ordway for the F.I. history lesson!!!  I will bookmark this thread.
I wonder how Chevrolet got the FI approved by NASCAR for the Daytona Beach race (Feb.17), BEFORE it was approved for the production line on Feb. 28? I'll guess NASCAR approval kick-started the line.
From what I've read, it seems that FI wasn't ready for prime time yet, but it was released into production more for MARKETING - TO KEEP THE BUZZ GOING IN THE SHOWROOMS, and to satisfy NASCAR and their 500 unit rule. They had to put some cars on the street for testing - but it was IMPOSSIBLE to order as an option. Magazine editors couln't get their hands on a test car, except for Car and Driver - they landed a Corvette equipped with 4.11's and (I think) a 4-speed. Correct me gents if I'm off base here - PLEASE!!!
I know the early units had issues, but just how BAD were they? What were those issues?
My Utility Sedan is a Black Widow TRIBUTE CAR created by the PO. The unit is a #4905 (1958?) on '57 block and heads. Was told by the engine builder the heads were upgraded to 1.94 intake valves, 9.5 forged pistons (runs well on 89 fuel)
and the cam is a copy of the 097 grind. I just LOVE the slight lope of the cam and light tapping of the solids. She pulls from 1k-1200 up, and just a BALL to drive in the mountains!!! Except for that pesky CRANKING SIGNAL VALVE (I'm on #3, but NEED to install my spare to test it) and learning how to start the engine HOT, I just LOVE MY FULIE!!! BUUUUUUUUUUT, it doesn't like the cruse loop at CFAC - just too HOT, too SLOW, stalls often and idle turns to CRAP... I blame the chitty so-cal gas for percolating in the spider and lines. 
I'll make no bones about my 'Widow - It was a San Jose car, sold outside the state (3-piece front bumper) with a 3-speed and six - or maybe 2-bbl V-8 (5/16 fuel line inside the frame). One unique thing about the car is the HORN RING with the '150' script instead of the typical 150 horn button.
I've been told that the U.S. Forestry Service spec'd these cars with the horn ring. Can anyone here verify that? I do know that it began life in a DRY western climate, with a solo driver - the ONLY rust I found was in the d-side foot board area and the body bolt pocket!
Man... I just can't get enough '57 and Fulie trivia!!!  
Again, thanks to Richard and my two FAVORITE Toms for ALL YOU SHARE HERE!!!
Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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DZAUTO
Member #51
Posts: 9298
Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
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09-23-14 05:31 PM - Post#2486137
In response to 6-bangertim
I know of NO such thing as a 4905 unit. There were 4900 and 4900R units in 58.
Also, where/what do you get your cranking signal valves? The ONLY ones I will touch are rebuilt CSV from Frank Antonicelli. Also, on my PERSONAL FI units I have replaced the CSV with an electric solenoid valve.
The replacement of the CSV with an elec solenoid valve was done MANY, MANY years ago by a person unknown. It IS NOT correct, but it is 99.999999999999 dependable.
The unit on my 56 is a hybrid, made up from 57-65 parts, with the goal of achieving the APPEARANCE of (sort of) a 57 unit, but with the dependability of a 64-65 unit, which were the best FI units made. Thus, I've made several modifications to achieve both.
But unless a person is intimately familiar with differences between all the 57 through 65 units, it's best to restore whatever model unit you have to its original configuration.
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6-bangertim
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2218
Age: 66
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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09-24-14 01:34 AM - Post#2486208
In response to DZAUTO
Tom, I get my NEW repop CSV's from Chuck Smith & Co. in Valley Center, Ca. I don't know his source for them. Cost when I bought mine couple years ago was $125. First repop was a dud - the car started, but was very SLOW in coming up to temp, got really thirsty too! He made good on it, bought a spare to carry with - TOO EASY to change before calling AAA!
Chuck is HIGHLY REGARDED here in So-Cal for his FI and dual quad restoration work. My unit was built by a budddy of the PO who does Corvette work in the L.A area. Functions well, but NOT top-shelf in appearance - but acceptable.
I'll have to go back and check the p/n... 
- Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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Richard Martin
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5568
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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09-24-14 08:17 AM - Post#2486272
In response to 6-bangertim
"500 unit rule"
I know there was such a rule in the late 1960s but I could not find anything printed by NASCAR about that rule in 1957.
If NASCAR gave Chevrolet a pass they also did the same for Ford, Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Plymouth. Pontiac's 317 horsepower Tri-Power hi-performance engine was not released until January and ditto for for the Olds J-2. I couldn't find the date Ford released it's Supercharged 312 but it's a fair bet they hadn't built 500 by February. Plymouth's Fury 290 horsepower 318 (that was available in any Plymouth model) was released in December 1956.
Today probably the Pontiac 317 horsepower Tri-Power engine is the rarest. I've only seen one and that was in a NASCAR museum.
Richard
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6-bangertim
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2218
Age: 66
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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09-24-14 11:03 AM - Post#2486322
In response to Richard Martin
Thank you Richard! I know of a gent with a '57 Ford with a 312 - Paxton here in SoCal. Told me that Mcnamara only allowed 500 cars to be built with the supercharger. That might be where I got that number.
Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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Richard Martin
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5568
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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09-24-14 12:24 PM - Post#2486348
In response to 6-bangertim
You are welcome but please understand I'm not saying there wasn't a 500 rule in '57---I just couldn't find any evidence of it. Actually it's a moot point
because NASCAR allowed the cars to race anyway.
I wouldn't be surprised if most of the supercharged '57 Fords were Thunderbirds. '57 blower Fords had a F in the VIN indicating they were factory built. 312 single 4-bbl carb were D code and 2 X 4-bbl carbs were E code in the VIN.
It sure would have been nice if Chevy had put an engine code in the VIN prior to 1972.
Richard
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1957 FI Nomad
Senior Member
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Reg: 01-19-03
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09-25-14 12:55 PM - Post#2486628
In response to DZAUTO
Mike knew that his list was not accurate. I provided a copy of a dealer invoice for a FI Bel-Air Sport Sedan where his list showed 0 produced.. I also provided him with a copy of the Chevrolet internal document letter concerning the recall campaign to replace earlier FI units with the "new" model 4800.
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1957 FI Nomad
Senior Member
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Reg: 01-19-03
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09-25-14 02:55 PM - Post#2486648
In response to 6-bangertim
The "Deluxe Steering Wheel" was an option available for the 150 model in 1957. It was standard equipment on all 150s built in Canada.
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6-bangertim
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2218
Age: 66
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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09-26-14 12:17 PM - Post#2486827
In response to 1957 FI Nomad
Thank you for that tidbit 'Nomad!
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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f.i.57chevynut
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1538
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
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09-26-14 03:33 PM - Post#2486862
In response to 6-bangertim
I know the early units had issues, but just how BAD were they? What were those issues?
My Utility Sedan is a Black Widow TRIBUTE CAR created by the PO. The unit is a #4905 (1958?) on '57 block and heads. Was told by the engine builder the heads were upgraded to 1.94 intake valves, 9.5 forged pistons (runs well on 89 fuel)
and the cam is a copy of the 097 grind. I just LOVE the slight lope of the cam and light tapping of the solids. She pulls from 1k-1200 up, and just a BALL to drive in the mountains!!! Except for that pesky CRANKING SIGNAL VALVE (I'm on #3, but NEED to install my spare to test it) and learning how to start the engine HOT, I just LOVE MY FULIE!!! BUUUUUUUUUUT, it doesn't like the cruse loop at CFAC - just too HOT, too SLOW, stalls often and idle turns to CRAP... I blame the chitty so-cal gas for percolating in the spider and lines.
I'll make no bones about my 'Widow - It was a San Jose car, sold outside the state (3-piece front bumper) with a 3-speed and six - or maybe 2-bbl V-8 (5/16 fuel line inside the frame). One unique thing about the car is the HORN RING with the '150' script instead of the typical 150 horn button.
Take Care, Tim
Tim, the early 4360 units had a gas mileage feature called the coasting shut-off valve, with a needle and seat arrangement cast into the high pressure pump and a diaphram on top of the fuel meter that would lift the needle when the manifold vacuum got real high( high rpm like going into a corner in a circle track car). The problem was that it depressurized the fuel delivery system and caused a flat spot when you got back on the gas. GM just deleted the system and put a cover over the seat on the pump, rather than throw away the pump casting.
As far as hot starting, all you have to do is crank it with the throttle wide open. That keeps the manifold vacuum down and doesn't transfer vacuum to the main diaphragm and cause the rich condition that is helpful for cold starts.
There's no way around the hot idle problem. You're right about the heat and copper lines. I have dealt with that problem for over 40 years.
Early 57's had 3 piece bumpers. I had a 57 wagon made in Van Nuys that came from the original owner who live in Panorama City, a mile or so from the Van Nuys plant. Check the VIN to see if there is a V at the beginning. An original 6 doesn't have it.
Are you going to be around on Tuesday? I'll be in Lakeside to pick up some tools I bought on www.Ebay.com.
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57figuy
Member
Posts: 86
Reg: 10-21-05
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09-26-14 10:19 PM - Post#2486929
In response to f.i.57chevynut
The list of Fuel Injection production is not correct!
I talked and and corresponded with Mike Hunt (the author of the list) and he explained to me that he was given the list by one of his contacts at Chevrolet. Unfortunately it did not designate each body style by name but by letter. Mike put a body style to each letter by starting with the 150's (A to D) and going on from there to create this list. Although this made perfect sense it is incorrect as I have been able document several original FI Bel Air Four Door Hardtops for example
(the list shows none built). Also read posts from Tom Ordway.
It wouild be great to see some Chevrolet Literature that shows what letter corresponds to each body style but I've never run across anything.
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6-bangertim
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 2218
Age: 66
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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09-27-14 11:31 AM - Post#2487030
In response to f.i.57chevynut
Tom, it would be GREAT to see you Tuesday! I have cheap gas and good Mexican food in my 'hood (but different locations  ). Call or PM me and we can set things up. Looking forward to bench racing with you!!!
Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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