bound2ryde
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Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-10-14 01:04 PM - Post#2483101
I needed a vehicle and so a friend is GIVING me a 66 Apache. Outside is beat up but she says it loves to run. She thought it had a 292 but I think it's a 250.
It's been sitting 2-3 years and before that was a daily driver.
I put new points/condenser/coil/spa rk plug wires.Battery is charged and healthy. Took ground strap off and cleaned all the rust away for good connection.
There is no spark coming out of the coil high tension lead. The NEGATIVE post on the battery is getting hot! I have 12.5v to the starter solenoid but only 6.5 coming out to the coil.
I'm a very good bike mechanic, and an average truck mech. This would be my first restore...Any thoughts would really be appreciated.
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 Vaughn
Member #455 "15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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09-10-14 04:48 PM - Post#2483137
In response to bound2ryde
Well, you have a short somewhere if the negative battery post is getting hot. It is probably because the points ignition is wired incorrectly.
You should have 9 volts to the points while running, but 12 volts when starting. The lower voltage during running is by design.
Points ignitions use less voltage when running, because it makes the points last a lot longer.
As said before, it only uses 12 volts when starting, because that is when you want the ignition to be the hottest - so that the motor will have a greater tendency to start.
There is a yellow (usually) wire that is thicker than the other wires. This is a wire that has a resistor in it, to drop the voltage to the coil while running. It is called a ballast wire. It should go to the positive side of the coil. It normally comes out of the firewall next to the heater (if a deluxe version) and goes to the coil. The wire originates at the key switch, goes through the firewall and hooks to the coil.
There should be another wire that comes up from the starter to the positive side of the coil, and it is hooked to the "R" terminal on the starter solenoid (the R is embossed in the black plastic, and is sometimes hard to see). This provides the 12 volts to the coil during starting. The "R" terminal on the starter is for "relay", it only supplies power while the starter is cranking over. It shuts off when the starter does (after the motor is running).
The negative side of the coil should have a wire that goes to the distributor base, this goes inside the distributor and hooks to the points.
Coils only fire when the negative side is grounded, so the points switch the coil on and off by grounding the points to the block through the distributor.
This is how to tell the difference between the 292 and the 250:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?...
Picture of a 250:
Picture of a 292:
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bound2ryde
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Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-10-14 06:07 PM - Post#2483167
In response to Vaughn
Yup, I was right it's a 250. TY!
Ok, so the truck was running and one day didnt start so it sat 2-3 years. None of the wiring has changed, with the exception of the new points, condenser, and sp wires.
The negative post only gets hot when the engine is cranked, new info! Key on is not an issue. I checked the voltage to the solenoid and got 12.5v, but when I jump over to the post with coil wire there is only 6.5v. That seems like a problem to me. A 12v system cannot fire on 6v. Could the solenoid have an issue? Is there another engine ground I should look at?
TIA
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raycow
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09-10-14 06:25 PM - Post#2483172
In response to bound2ryde
The one absolutely fool-proof way to identify a 292 engine is the location of the fuel pump. On a 292 the pump is to the rear of the right side
engine mount. On a 194/215/230/250 it is forward of the mount. If you have just one engine to look at, this is the only identification point you need to remember.
Ray
| Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive. |
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Vaughn
Member #455 "15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 18770
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Reg: 08-08-04
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09-11-14 10:44 AM - Post#2483323
In response to raycow
Here are a few wiring diagrams that might help:
http://www.64moneypit.pages.qpg.com/6066chevytruck...
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bound2ryde
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-11-14 03:07 PM - Post#2483371
In response to Vaughn
So, after reading everyone's ideas and checking everything over and still not having any success... I had a thought last night and went to the truck.
With the key on but not cranking:
1.Checked for voltage to the battery terminal of the solenoid, all good 12.5v.
2.then with the positive lead of the voltmeter and the negative to the post of the solenoid which would normally be used to connect wires to the distributor, I also have 12.5v! I'm thinking that's a short to ground? right? The solenoid should not be supplying power to that post till it cranks first, if my understanding is correct about its operation. And second, there should not be a voltage reading if I'm going from the positive lead of the battery...that would only happen if it was grounded, right???
I hope you all can follow that. I'll try to pull it tonight and see whats up.
Thanks for all your help.
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Vaughn
Member #455 "15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 18770
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Reg: 08-08-04
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09-11-14 04:52 PM - Post#2483401
In response to bound2ryde
If there was 12 volts on that terminal, the starter would be spinning. That is the power input of the starter motor. The starter motor would spin, but it would not engage with the flywheel unless the solenoid was engaged.
It sounds like you measured from the solenoid input terminal (which is the same as the positive battery post) with your positive test lead, to the starter motor input power with your negative test lead. Since the starter motor isn't spinning, it will be at 0 volts. So, you just measured from a positive battery supply to a ground point, which will give you a voltage reading of 12 volts.
Also - you CAN run an ignition system on 6 volts. It isn't like when you supply less that 12 volts to a starter motor, which will make it run extremely slowly. Cars and trucks prior to the late 50s had 6 volt batteries and ignition systems, and they ran fine on them.
The 6 volts that you are reading at the coil may be a little deceptive, IF you are reading the voltage while the engine is running. You are reading a partial AC and DC voltage at the coil while running, which the multimeter will average out to 6+ volts on a DC voltage range.
At some point, you may want to switch to an electronic ignition. The 230/250 motor was used up into the late 70s early 80s, and they were equipped with an HEI ignition. These are MUCH better ignitions than the points system. All you have to do is to replace the distributor with a junkyard 250 HEI distributor, and remove the ballast wire and replace it with a regular wire so that the ignition gets a full 12 volts. You also have to remove the wire from the starter to the coil, as it is no longer needed (it is already being fed a full 12 volts during starting).
The HEI has a coil integrated into the distributor cap, so you just run that replaced ballast wire to the cap with a key-on 12 volts - and your engine will run.
It will start easier and get better gas mileage with the HEI ignition.
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raycow
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09-12-14 02:59 AM - Post#2483481
In response to bound2ryde
Sometimes I have difficulty understanding what you are writing, but I think you are saying you put your meter probe on the "R" terminal of the solenoid. That would be the terminal which does NOT have a purple wire connected to it. Is that what you meant? If yes, the other end of the wire on that solenoid terminal is normally connected to the (+) terminal of the ignition coil or to some point in the harness between the resistance wire and the coil (+) terminal.
With the key on and the engine not running, that wire and terminal will show about 12 volts if the distributor points are open and about 7-9 volts with the points closed. I would say that the points were probably open when you tested it and the voltage you read was normal. In other words, don't worry about it. If you want to be certain, turn the engine BY HAND until the points are closed and take another voltage reading on that solenoid terminal.
Ray
| Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive. |
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bound2ryde
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-12-14 02:08 PM - Post#2483584
In response to raycow
Ok, I took the starter off and took it in and had it checked and it's fine!
So, I'm right back where I started. The engine cranks over fine but there is no spark coming from the hi tension coil lead...and the negative side of the battery is getting hot.
It has new points, condenser, sp wires. I took the ground strap off the engine and cleaned it.
I'm apparently getting the right voltage TO the coil. Gonna go out and recheck everything for the hundredth time and start all over.
Still looking for a new idea... 
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Vaughn
Member #455 "15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 18770
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Reg: 08-08-04
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09-12-14 04:17 PM - Post#2483603
In response to bound2ryde
Coils fire when the NEGATIVE side of the coil is grounded. Either you have installed the points so that they are always grounded (usually the wire off of the points hits a ground somewhere underneath the distributor cap), or the points never ground out at all.
Take a test lead and hook it to the negative side of the coil. Now, while watching the high tension lead, touch (and remove) the other end of the test lead to any ground. You should see a spark, unless you have the points always grounded. IF they are grounded all the time, you need to disconnect power from the truck right away because you will fry the points otherwise.
About the hot negative lead:
There is a wiring failure that happens in 60-66 trucks sometimes, it is bad enough to catch fire if you don't stop it in time.
Grab the wire bundle going from the drivers side of the radiator to where it goes into the drivers side firewall. Is there a heavy gauge wire that is hot or smoking? Disconnect the battery from the truck immediately if you do.
Do you have an ammeter inside the truck? These can fail and cause the wiring harness to melt down and catch fire. Disconnect the ammeter if you do have one (even if it is part of the stock gauge cluster).
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bound2ryde
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-12-14 05:38 PM - Post#2483631
In response to Vaughn
Coils fire when the NEGATIVE side of the coil is grounded. Either you have installed the points so that they are always grounded (usually the wire off of the points hits a ground somewhere underneath the distributor cap), or the points never ground out at all.
Take a test lead and hook it to the negative side of the coil. Now, while watching the high tension lead, touch (and remove) the other end of the test lead to any ground. You should see a spark, unless you have the points always grounded. IF they are grounded all the time, you need to disconnect power from the truck right away because you will fry the points otherwise.
Ok, so I tried this and still no spark from the high tension lead.
I hooked up an ohm meter and the distributor, condenser, and point plate always have continuity regardless of points closed or open.
About the hot negative lead:
There is a wiring failure that happens in 60-66 trucks sometimes, it is bad enough to catch fire if you don't stop it in time.
Grab the wire bundle going from the drivers side of the radiator to where it goes into the drivers side firewall. Is there a heavy gauge wire that is hot or smoking? Disconnect the battery from the truck immediately if you do.
The only time the negative lead gets hot is while cranking the engine, but I do disconnect it when unattended. I will check the harness per your suggestion.
Do you have an ammeter inside the truck? These can fail and cause the wiring harness to melt down and catch fire. Disconnect the ammeter if you do have one (even if it is part of the stock gauge cluster).
I do have one, just an idiot needle that swings one way or the other and I have disconnected it per your suggestion.
Ok, anymore directions to follow?
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raycow
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09-12-14 08:57 PM - Post#2483675
In response to bound2ryde
If cranking the engine causes the negative cable to get hot where it connects to the battery, it means you have a poor connection there. Remove the cable and clean the battery post and the inside of the cable terminal with a wire brush.
If the distributor low voltage lead shows continuity to ground regardless of whether the points are open or closed, you have a short to ground somewhere inside the distributor. This is the reason you aren't getting any spark. The point mounting plate should be grounded, but not the condenser lead or the movable arm of the points unless the points are closed). In case you didn't already know, the engine fires when the points open, not when they close.
Ray
| Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive. |
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bound2ryde
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Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-12-14 11:55 PM - Post#2483687
In response to raycow
So, I can get a distributor for $40. I'm thinking that would be the best choice at this point, anyone disagree?
Thanks everybody, I hope I have better news tomorrow. 
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raycow
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09-13-14 12:42 PM - Post#2483769
In response to bound2ryde
Keep in mind that a new dist is not a guaranteed bolt-in fix-all. It is definitely possible to screw up when installing it. For example, do you know how to set static timing? Do you know how to make sure the #1 cylinder is on its compression stroke rather than exhaust? Please don't think that I'm trying to give you a bad time here by questioning your skills. It's just that if troubleshooting the existing dist is more of a challenge than you care to take on, you need to be aware that there are also other ways that things can go wrong.
Ray
| Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive. |
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bound2ryde
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-13-14 01:19 PM - Post#2483776
In response to raycow
Keep in mind that a new dist is not a guaranteed bolt-in fix-all. It is definitely possible to screw up when installing it. For example, do you know how to set static timing? Do you know how to make sure the #1 cylinder is on its compression stroke rather than exhaust? Please don't think that I'm trying to give you a bad time here by questioning your skills. It's just that if troubleshooting the existing dist is more of a challenge than you care to take on, you need to be aware that there are also other ways that things can go wrong.
Ray
Hey Ray, no offense taken at all! I do know how to find TDC on compression.
As for troubleshooting the distributor...yeah I'm not sure what to start looking for next. I would be happy for any step by steps if you have them.
I'v'e pulled to points and condenser, everything I touch on the distributor is still going straight to ground.
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Vaughn
Member #455 "15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 18770
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Reg: 08-08-04
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09-13-14 01:49 PM - Post#2483778
In response to raycow
Your points are always grounded, so that is why you aren't getting a spark, as said previously.
All parts of the distributor are supposed to be grounded, except the arm of the points and the spring that wraps around the arm and back to the connection point for the wire that goes back to the coil. The pivot point of the points is where there is a bushing that doesn't conduct electricity, so half of the points are grounded, and the other half is isolated from ground.
So, if both parts of the points are grounded when the points are open, you have found the problem that is keeping you from getting it running. It is a good idea to replace the points with new ones, and MAKE SURE that the points aren't grounded when the points are open. Also, make sure the points are gapped properly.
If everything else is OK, then the motor should start, or at least you should get a spark.
If you are going to replace the distributor though, you might as well get an HEI unit. The wiring is simpler. Just cut out the wire that has the ballast resistor in it, replace it with regular wire (so you get a full 12 volts) and connect it to the "bat" terminal of the distributor.
There is nothing wrong with getting another points distributor (as long as you remember to get the rotor pointed at the same spot as the one you take out), if you don't feel like changing the wiring.
It is a good idea to clean the negative cable and negative battery post.
THE BATTERY CABLE PROBLEM.
OK, so we need to deal with the negative battery cable. The solution MAY be that the coil is grounded, so take care of the points problem first, then see if the negative cable stops heating up. If not, you can take some steps to find the problem.
1. Is the positive cable the same gauge as the positive battery cable?
2. Does the positive battery cable get hot at all?
The reason that I ask this is because ALL the current that flows through the negative cable HAS TO flow through the positive cable as well, so there might be a problem with the negative cable. It is probably a smart move to replace the cable.
If replacing the cable doesn't help, then we are going to have to isolate each circuit in the electrical system, so that we can find the problem.
3. Do you have a multimeter that can read the amperage that is flowing through the battery cables? This most often means that you need an ammeter that has a loop at the top. Some of the multimeters without loops can read 10 or so amps, but most of them can't read much in the way of amps. You will burn them up if you try. Your local parts store MAY have a loop multimeter that you can borrow (free tool loaner program)
The reason that we need to be able to measure amps is because we are going to try to isolate the circuit that is causing the current draw.
With the key on, start removing fuses while watching the ammeter every time you pull a fuse. If there is any circuit that draws a lot of power it is the problem circuit. You should isolate that circuit by leaving the fuse out until you have time to find out why it is drawing more power.
The other two big draws are the starter and the alternator/generator.
You can isolate the alternator by removing the power wire from it, and disconnecting the fields at the voltage regulator. Is there a large current drop on the ammeter when you disconnect it?
You have to remove the battery cable from the starter (and wrap it so that it doesn't ground) while checking it for a power loss.
The battery power inside the truck should still be there, it is fed off of a 10 gauge wire coming off the battery terminal. This wire goes underneath the radiator core support and hooks to the horn relay on the drivers side of the radiator core support, just above the voltage regulator. From there, the battery power goes across the driver side fenderwell into the driver side firewall. If there are any large gauge wires scabbed into the power wire there at the horn relay, disconnect them and check for power drop on the multimeter.
Finally, check underneath the dash inside the truck, looking for wires that are just hanging (usually as an attempt to install a radio). Check if they are hot, and wrap up any that have power o them so that they don't ground.
Isolating all those circuit should have allowed you to find the circuit that is creating the problem.
Here is a picture of the GENERAL wiring setup on our trucks, it shows you where the large power wires go. It can be helpful when figuring out wiring problems. It also shows you where on the truck that the wires go, to make it easier to find each wire. There is an error on this diagram, the yellow ballast wire goes to the wrong place. The purple and green wires are also wrong.
Hopefully this will help you figure out your two main problems.
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bound2ryde
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 09-10-14
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09-13-14 05:44 PM - Post#2483813
In response to Vaughn
So, you all ROCK!!! Especially Vaughn and Ray who got me going back to basics and looking at the distributor...almost like a bike but NOT! The new set of points (which I thought were crummy cause there was no post to actually tighten the connections to) were assembled with the spring grounding the points against the pivot arm!!!!
So, yes spend the money for a good set of points and the Old Beast WILL FIRE RIGHT UP!!! And no more overheating battery post!
Thanks for hangin in there you saved me and another great ol'truck will live to drive another day.
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raycow
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Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
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09-14-14 12:15 PM - Post#2483945
In response to bound2ryde
That's great news! I always enjoy hearing a story with a happy ending. Thank you for the feedback.
Ray
| Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive. |
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