freebirdinflyt
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Age: 50
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09-04-12 09:50 PM - Post#2266678
56 Chevy Bel Air 350 eng.
Outside temp 98.
7lb radiator cap.
190 thermostats.
Stock fan pulling and shroud.
New 4 core radiator brass made in China. 
A/C condenser in front of that.
12 x 10 TCI tranny cooler in front of that.
Large ele fan pushing.
A/C off
At 60mph old rad ran about 200 new rad 210 then at the light 210,212 degrees
Should I go with a higher thermostat?
Or is this acceptable?
Or any other suggestion.
Thanks in advance
Doug
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93 low
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09-04-12 11:51 PM - Post#2266687
In response to freebirdinflyt
Where is your temp sending unit located? Is your temp gauge mechanical or elect?
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bowtieboy56
Contributor
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Loc: new zealand
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09-05-12 12:26 AM - Post#2266691
In response to freebirdinflyt
doug, check for silly things like radiator hoses colapsing, ensure both have some form of support in them, remove and check your thermostat is opening at 190 , and remember that your fan on the front maybe inhibiting air flow,ensure your fan is working on the motor if its thermostatic,i would think your set up should be running around 180 ish, also check your timming, inculding total timing, rule i was taught was no more than 36 all in.
regards chris
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vabeach56wagon
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09-05-12 04:41 AM - Post#2266700
In response to freebirdinflyt
New radiator can handle a higher pressure. Switch out the cap to 15#.
paul
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Tri5man
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1505
Loc: Inlet Beach, FL
Reg: 06-26-07
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09-05-12 06:13 AM - Post#2266723
In response to vabeach56wagon
I wouldn't go with a higher pressure radiator cap. It won't help cooling but will allow a higher temperature before boiling over. I also doubt your thermostat is not opening. I'd be leery of a Chinese radiator. Who knows what would happen if the pressure was 15#. Your also dumping a lot of hot air into that radiator with both a condenser and a transmission cooler. Whats your temps with the A/C on? Temps of 210-212 is not that bad. I'd at least relocate the trans cooler. I learned a long time ago that when it comes to brakes, steering and cooling always buy the best.
62 Impala wagon, 56 Bel Air 2 door post
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Doc Fillem
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09-05-12 08:00 AM - Post#2266743
In response to freebirdinflyt
Your temp isn't that bad with 98 degrees outside. Upgrade your mechanical fan to a modern flex fan and add some "Redline Water Wetter" to your radiator, you can get it at Autozone. Once you do that you might see how well it does with the electric pusher fan removed. It may actually be blocking airflow.
What is the temp while moving?
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 acardon
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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09-05-12 08:27 AM - Post#2266757
In response to Doc Fillem
[QUOTE] At 60mph old rad ran about 200 new rad 210 then at the light 210,212 degrees
You should be running 190 degrees at highway speed with a 190 degree thermostat. As mentioned, the electric fan could be restricting air flow. Try it on the highway with the fan turned off, then try it with the fan removed, as Doc mentioned. If it still doesn't run 190, try a high flow thermostat such as Melodon or Mr.Gasket. I went through 6 thermostats before I found one that was consistant and opened at the right temp. I tested so many in a pan of water on the stove, that my wife thought I was trying to learn how to boil water. I told her I just couldn't get the hang of it and she would have to continue to do the cooking.
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
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Loc: Los Angeles
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09-05-12 10:59 AM - Post#2266799
In response to acardon
"You should be running 190 degrees at highway speed with a 190 degree thermostat. "
That is just wrong. A 190 stat begins to open at 190 and isn't fully open until around 205, so your cruising temp cannot be 190.
To the O/P's question, there is nothing wrong with the temps you are seeing considering you are running the 190 Stat. I personally would run a lower temp stat because I like lower running temps, but the temps you are running are perfectly acceptable.
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55 Shaker
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09-05-12 11:07 AM - Post#2266804
In response to vabeach56wagon
New radiator can handle a higher pressure. Switch out the cap to 15#.
paul
Your new radiator can handle the extra pressure, but I don't think your heater core can.
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Tri5man
Frequent Contributor
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Loc: Inlet Beach, FL
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09-05-12 11:25 AM - Post#2266810
In response to 55 Shaker
55 Shaker has it right. A decent radiator will handle a 15# cap. Not sure about Chi Com radiators as I've had no experience with them. Heater cores have been a weak point in Chevy's from way back. What makes it worse is the replacements are almost exclusively Chinese.
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 beejay
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09-05-12 12:06 PM - Post#2266820
In response to fbi9c1
"You should be running 190 degrees at highway speed with a 190 degree thermostat. "
That is just wrong. A 190 stat begins to open at 190 and isn't fully open until around 205, so your cruising temp cannot be 190.
To the O/P's question, there is nothing wrong with the temps you are seeing considering you are running the 190 Stat. I personally would run a lower temp stat because I like lower running temps, but the temps you are running are perfectly acceptable.
I have a 190* thermo in the '56. It starts to open, and is completely open at 195*. From there, the temp drops down to 170* and holds before climbing back to 190*. Open road - 190*-195*. In traffic, will go to 205* if a long time sitting. Gauge is electric, and checked with laser gauge. Not all things are equal in live.  
Bruce
'56 4-door BelAir, 350, Holley 600, Eddie intake, TKO 600, CPP P/S and A arms, Sierra Gold & Adobe Beige
2010 VW Jetta S/W, 2.5, 5-cyl,6-spd auto.
'87 Elkie, 350 with 700r4 tranny B&M floor shift
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fbi9c1
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09-05-12 01:14 PM - Post#2266839
In response to beejay
"I have a 190* thermo in the '56. It starts to open, and is completely open at 195*. From there, the temp drops down to 170* and holds before climbing back to 190*. Open road - 190*-195*"
Then it isn't working correctly or you have a 180 stat. They don't go from closed to open in 5 degrees. Drop one in a pot of water on the stove and observe. How would a correctly operating stat allow temps to drop from 195 to 170? It would close as much as necessary to maintain a minimum temp of 190 if it were working correctly.
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Novaclone
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09-05-12 04:14 PM - Post#2266887
In response to fbi9c1
Run a 160 stat,and watch the rad cap pressure. For every 1 pound of pressure raises the boiling point 3 degrees F. 7 / 10 pound cap
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models916
Frequent Contributor
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Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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09-06-12 10:20 AM - Post#2267087
In response to Novaclone
Get a Mr Gasket or Robert Shaw 160. The only reason to run a 195 is to boost the heater in the winter or for a smog/emission engine running lean.
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 2Loose
"9th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
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09-06-12 04:07 PM - Post#2267160
In response to models916
I'm running a 180 thermostat, and mech. temp gage sensor is mounted just above the thermostat, al. heads, huge BeCool cross-flow radiator, dual spal pull fans, thermo goes up slowly to about 195 when start driving, cold water hits the motor and it drops way down, thermo closes and it climbs slowly again, does that up-down trip for awhile, down side keeps getting warmer as radiator warms up, outside air temp in mid 80's, fan switch is 190, fans stay off, eventually it seems to smooth out about 185-195, and the fans sometimes come on, sometimes not, but do not stay on long usually if driving on open road, usually stay off. In traffic once warmed up, the fans on more often. Can tell when fans come on, volt meter drops a half a volt. Am thinking of trying lower temp thermos just to see how it works with those. This is on the 6-71 blown Olds 425 in my chevy gasser. This motor never sees boost when driving in traffic, vacuum pulling anywhere from 10 to 20 inches in normal traffic.
your temps do not sound out of line to me. But I'd be inclined to run a lower temp thermo.
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beejay
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09-07-12 01:57 PM - Post#2267443
In response to fbi9c1
"I have a 190* thermo in the '56. It starts to open, and is completely open at 195*. From there, the temp drops down to 170* and holds before climbing back to 190*. Open road - 190*-195*"
Then it isn't working correctly or you have a 180 stat. They don't go from closed to open in 5 degrees. Drop one in a pot of water on the stove and observe. How would a correctly operating stat allow temps to drop from 195 to 170? It would close as much as necessary to maintain a minimum temp of 190 if it were working correctly.
What do you think happens when the water pump starts pumping water from a COLD/COOL radiator? The temp will drop in the block/stat. Iffin' ya noticed, I said that the temp would climb back to 190*. If sitting and idling, it will climb to about 200/205*. There, it settles down for a long winter's nap. I've never had the temp over 120*.
Bruce
'56 4-door BelAir, 350, Holley 600, Eddie intake, TKO 600, CPP P/S and A arms, Sierra Gold & Adobe Beige
2010 VW Jetta S/W, 2.5, 5-cyl,6-spd auto.
'87 Elkie, 350 with 700r4 tranny B&M floor shift
http://www.picturetrail.com/beejay3/" |
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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09-07-12 03:04 PM - Post#2267474
In response to freebirdinflyt
A few comments:
I don't think it's a good idea to use a 160 t-stat. It would be open all the time in the summer, so you might as well have no t-stat. And in the winter the engine will probably run at 160-170, which is too cool for efficient operation of an internal combustion engine. Use Google to find out why.
Unless your radiator is boiling over, a higher pressure cap won't help at all.
185-190 should be your target temp, with up to 210 at a stop light. I'd probably go with a 180 t-stat and check it in a pan of water on the cook-top using a good quality thermometer.
Water transfers heat better than antifreeze, so consider running 100% water in the summer with a cooling system corrosion inhibitor. The water wetter products are a scam, IMO -- closely related to Split Fire spark plugs.
No way should you need two fans. I'd experiment with one at a time.
How old is the water pump? I have seen old ones with corroded impellers. And some pumps flow better than others. Stewart and Edelbrock pumps do a good job, although my $49 CAT aluminum pump has served me well since 2003.
Good luck!
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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acardon
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Loc: DFW TEXAS
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09-07-12 04:54 PM - Post#2267492
In response to MikeB
Water transfers heat better than antifreeze, so consider running 100% water in the summer with a cooling system corrosion inhibitor.
Do not run water without antifreeze if you have aftermarket air conditioning. There is a big chance that part of the evaporator may freeze before the A/C thermostat cuts the compressor off. This can freeze the heater core. If this happens, expect to have the hot water in the radiator come inside the car with you. There is a note in Classic Auto Air's instructions about this.
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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beejay
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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09-08-12 11:05 AM - Post#2267671
In response to acardon
"I've never had the temp over 120*. "
Make that 210*.
Bruce
'56 4-door BelAir, 350, Holley 600, Eddie intake, TKO 600, CPP P/S and A arms, Sierra Gold & Adobe Beige
2010 VW Jetta S/W, 2.5, 5-cyl,6-spd auto.
'87 Elkie, 350 with 700r4 tranny B&M floor shift
http://www.picturetrail.com/beejay3/" |
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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09-08-12 07:39 PM - Post#2267848
In response to acardon
Do not run water without antifreeze if you have aftermarket air conditioning. There is a big chance that part of the evaporator may freeze before the A/C thermostat cuts the compressor off. This can freeze the heater core. If this happens, expect to have the hot water in the radiator come inside the car with you. There is a note in Classic Auto Air's instructions about this.
So you're saying if you have plain water sitting in the heater core, the evaporator could freeze that water and break the heater core? The blower is pushing cabin temperature air past the heater core and evaporator, so I don't see how that could be a problem unless the air flows across the evaporator before the heater core. Or do they touch each other?
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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acardon
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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09-08-12 08:08 PM - Post#2267864
In response to MikeB
The evaporator and heater core are close enough that it froze up and split the tubes on the core on my unit.  Quote from charging instructions. ......
"Cooling system needs to have 50/50 mix of distilled water and antifreeze, also the heater
coil needs to be purged (cycle heater control valve) to make sure no water, without antifreeze,
is in the heater coil before you charge the A/C system."
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
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09-08-12 09:36 PM - Post#2267893
In response to beejay
"I have a 190* thermo in the '56. It starts to open, and is completely open at 195*. From there, the temp drops down to 170* and holds before climbing back to 190*. Open road - 190*-195*"
Then it isn't working correctly or you have a 180 stat. They don't go from closed to open in 5 degrees. Drop one in a pot of water on the stove and observe. How would a correctly operating stat allow temps to drop from 195 to 170? It would close as much as necessary to maintain a minimum temp of 190 if it were working correctly.
What do you think happens when the water pump starts pumping water from a COLD/COOL radiator? The temp will drop in the block/stat. Iffin' ya noticed, I said that the temp would climb back to 190*. If sitting and idling, it will climb to about 200/205*. There, it settles down for a long winter's nap. I've never had the temp over 120*.
It doesn't work like that. A properly working thermostat gradually opens over 15 degrees and thus there is no sudden drop in the temp of the water circulating through the engine. If yours does otherwise, something isn't working correctly.
As far as 160 stats go, I have been running a 160 for the past 7 years with PCM re-programming of fan turn-on temps of 185 and 189(dual electrics).
I run real time data-logging with Datamaster and an ALDL cable attached to the diagnostic port and a laptop and run cruising temps of around 180. I rarely see temps over 190 except when something is wrong. My heater works fine and I get 23.5MPG on the highway. Then again, I have reverse flow cooling.
Edited by fbi9c1 on 09-08-12 09:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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acardon
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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09-09-12 07:22 AM - Post#2267948
In response to fbi9c1
It doesn't work like that. A properly working thermostat gradually opens over 15 degrees and thus there is no sudden drop in the temp of the water circulating through the engine.
It doesn't work that way either, but the key is a properly working thermostat. I have watched more thermostats open in a pryex container with a digital thermometer than the parts stores have in stock. With a 180 degree thermostat it will open at 180 degrees and continue to open until it's wide open at 181 degrees. At 179 degrees it will close and continue to close until it is completely closed. The trick is finding one that opens at 180 and not 190 or 170. It is gradual, but there is no degree varation, it opens above 180 and closes below 180. The amount it opens varies from engine to engine, but it will adjust to the required opening when the coolent from the radiator can maintain 180 degrees in the engine and stay there. That's why the same thermostat will work in any engine, it opens only far enough to keep the engine at it's set temperature, as long as the radiator can keep the coolent temp low enough. If the temp goes above thermostat temp, the cooling system is not sufficient.
As far as 160 stats go, I have been running a 160 for the past 7 years with PCM re-programming of fan turn-on temps of 185 and 189(dual electrics). I run real time data-logging with Datamaster and an ALDL cable attached to the diagnostic port and a laptop and run cruising temps of around 180.
A 160 degree thermostat should maintain 160 degrees in your engine, unless the cooling system cannot get it down to that temp. You can put a ODBII on a new car and sit idleing on a 107 degree day here in Texas until you run out of gas and the temp shouldn't vary more than a degree or two.
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
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Loc: Los Angeles
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09-09-12 09:55 AM - Post#2267993
In response to acardon
OK, I know nothing and real world experience and engineering school mean nothing either. I will leave it to you guys to wallow in your theories.
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 4dr 57
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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09-11-12 05:04 PM - Post#2268767
In response to acardon
/quote A 160 degree thermostat should maintain 160 degrees in your engine, unless the cooling system cannot get it down to that temp. You can put a ODBII on a new car and sit idleing on a 107 degree day here in Texas until you run out of gas and the temp shouldn't vary more than a degree or two./quote
Yessir, like it or not, that's the way it works.
However, I have my doubts OBD2 motors will ever run 160* on a hot summer day, but I don't actually know, I don't have any 
I was told by someone who knows about them that an LT1 engine will run about 195 degrees with a 195 stat.
On a 108* day my LT1 runs 201.6 in town, 224* on the interstate. I was told I don't have enough radiator, even though its the rad that fits that engine.
This is why I think the cooling ability of the cooling system depends on the amount of air actually getting to the rad. 57's have a front pan that dips down so the airflow sails right over the lower 1/3 of the rad.
On a 100* day the road temps are about 148+.
I like two fans in case one quits working.
Someone mentioned moving the A/T cooler..didn't the new radiator come with a trans cooler?
The ideal thermostat is 170* but I can't find one.
Stanley
| Wife: "Don't race the Police car, Stan!" |
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acardon
"9th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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09-11-12 07:15 PM - Post#2268811
In response to 4dr 57
However, I have my doubts OBD2 motors will ever run 160* on a hot summer day, but I don't actually know, I don't have any
I was told by someone who knows about them that an LT1 engine will run about 195 degrees with a 195 stat.
Stanley, I didn't mean to say a new car would run 160. I meant it would run within a few degrees of it's thermostat temp. Most have a 195 thermostat. From curiosity, I have had the ODB2 scanner on my 2000 van the last few days and it has stayed around 196 to 198.
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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09-15-12 08:01 PM - Post#2270038
In response to fbi9c1
OK, I know nothing and real world experience and engineering school mean nothing either.
Help me out here. Why even have a thermostat if your normal operating temp is well above its set point? And if optimal temp for internal combustion engines is 185-190, why would an engineer want to run an engine at 160?
On another note, Stanley's comment reminded me of an article saying the newer LS engines are designed to run at 200 (or 210?) to keep moisture out of the crankcase. I don't have to go out on a limb to say GM engineers knew what they were doing here.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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Edited by MikeB on 09-16-12 07:06 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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