soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-03-12 03:55 AM - Post#2255235
Afternoon Gents,
I recently scored a 1954 235 power glide engine for my woody wagon project to replace the seized 216 that is in it already. I have a couple of questions:
1. 4:11 vs 3:55 gear ratio: Is there a real significant difference with a 235 engine and a 4:11 ratio that is in it? Or am I better off with the 3:55? I don't want to hot rod it, but I would like to be able to do 50-55 (highway speed) without over revving the engine. Is that possible with the 4:11 rear end in it?
2. Will the 216 flywheel work on a 235 engine? The wagon is a 3-speed manual, and I need to replace the clutch anyway as the gear shifter doesn't move at all when the clutch is fully depressed.
Thanks in advance for your time and consideration folks, I'm looking forward to restoring this awesome cars to the way it was in the 50's vice the 216 engine :D
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whiskey1954
Contributor
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Loc: central north carolina
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08-03-12 04:31 AM - Post#2255239
In response to soaringeagle
For my money the 3:55 is a better gear for highway cruise 65-70 mph with the 235 without over revving the motor I believe the flywheel will interchange Before you pull the clutch check under hood at shifting linkages and make sure the trans is not caught between 2 gears they will sometimes get caught up there if the shift box on column under hood is out of adjustment Does not sound right if that shifter will not move
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 2-28s313233
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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08-03-12 04:34 AM - Post#2255241
In response to soaringeagle
The 216 flywheel will bolt up to your 235. You can run run 50-55 with either rear end. But I would prefer the 3:55.
Cleon
1928 Chevy touring
1942 Chevy Sport coupe
1949 Chevy Sport coupe
1954 Chevy Bel Air HTP
1970 El Camino
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 Bob_Hayden
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 08-03-12 04:35 AM - Post#2255242
In response to whiskey1954
If the clutch is bad it will grind real bad when you try and shift it.
| Bob Hayden's 54 Chevy, 350 Engine with TH400 Tranny and 94 4X4 Blazer Rear End with 3:23 gears.(FINISHED PICS) </a> My 54 Albums |
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whiskey1954
Contributor
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Loc: central north carolina
Reg: 12-07-08
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08-03-12 04:45 AM - Post#2255246
In response to Bob_Hayden
Bob: poster said motor is seized and shifter will not move kinda sounds to me that maybe it is caught between gears at the linkage under the hood But also if I was swapping out engines I would definitely do the pilot bearing and clutch just for piece of mind
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Bob_Hayden
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08-03-12 04:49 AM - Post#2255247
In response to whiskey1954
Right Whiskey. Missed that.
| Bob Hayden's 54 Chevy, 350 Engine with TH400 Tranny and 94 4X4 Blazer Rear End with 3:23 gears.(FINISHED PICS) </a> My 54 Albums |
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-03-12 05:21 AM - Post#2255251
In response to Bob_Hayden
Thank you for the info guys, I'm planning on replacing most everything on this wagon. It was sitting in a field on a gentleman's farm for 30 years or so. The body and frame is in remarkable and restorable shape. I will check the shifter linkage when I get back home. Currently deployed to the gulf with the Navy. I have heard the 3:55 gears are better than the 4:11. I noticed on patrick's that you can buy 3:55 gears to put in the rear end. I will probably go that route so 50-55 won't be at such high RPM's. I also have a 53 150 business coupe restored, and a 54' del rey 210 sedan. They will run 55-65 but at about 60 the RPM's are pretty high on both cars, so I imagine the wagon would be even higher with a 4:11 rear end.
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51Woodie
Forum Newbie
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Loc: Kansas City Area
Reg: 03-10-11
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08-03-12 06:50 AM - Post#2255280
In response to soaringeagle
I think the fellas are spot on. I deal with this a lot on the ones I restore using the original stuff. When u look under the hood at the linkage, a lot of time somebody messed with the shifter arms. They should be almost even in neutral. If you get it runnin most of the time the clutch will be rusted to the flywheel and basically its stuck in gear not allowing u to switch gears. If that is the case jack up the rear, start it in gear, and work the clutch in and out as the rear wheel(s) are spinning, and never have I had one not break free. Then burn the clutch slightly which makes all the rust go away and u are good to go. Good luck and stay safe.
Eric
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-03-12 08:20 AM - Post#2255298
In response to 51Woodie
Thanks for the info, I will definitely check the shifter forks and make sure they are even. I have been in the Navy for awhile and these deployments don't give me much time to work on them since I can only pretty much work on them on leave. The 54' 235 engine I got for her is bored 0.40 over. I'm going to put in a new clutch, throw out bearing, face plate, pretty much a whole kit. From looking at the wagon as much as I have will need to re-do the wood interior, I believe a driver's side floor pan, and the headliner. It is in great shape though frame and body wise. The other two cars I'm going to have to get the old fuel out of, change the oil and filter and the spark plugs because they haven't been started in almost two years because of my time away and have been in the garage but non the less in that hot and cold without starting. Going to be putting 6V electronic ignition in them as well. Can't wait to get them back up, the 53 and 54 won't take too much effort, but the 52' wagon will take a bit but can't wait to get it on the road again!
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 usmile4
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08-03-12 08:22 AM - Post#2255299
In response to 51Woodie
Patrick's sells good stuff but before you buy their gear set, look on ebay and Craigslist or post a want add here. You can probably find a complete PG rear end with the 3:55 gears from someone who is putting in an open driveline.
Bill Gommel
49 chevy Styleline (Sold), 51 Styleline 2 dr Special, 235 (from a 61 truck) bored .060 over, Dual Carter/Webers, Fenton Headers, T5- 5 speed with a 56 rear end. |
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-03-12 08:33 AM - Post#2255300
In response to usmile4
Thanks! That would definitely be the best route to go, since that should just bolt right up and I'd have the 3:55 ratio. :D :D
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eplantage
Senior Member
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Loc: Southern MN
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08-03-12 11:10 AM - Post#2255354
In response to soaringeagle
Thank you for your service sailor.
Age: 59 at the moment
1950 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery
1953 BelAir Convertible Project
2002 Heritage Springer FLSTSI |
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51Woodie
Forum Newbie
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08-03-12 11:16 AM - Post#2255355
In response to soaringeagle
Great just holler. I have 4 wagons and several cars. Just love workin on em and that I do, WORK. Remember, the rear on the wagon is slightly longer than the cars if you ever are trying to just swap one.
Eric
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-04-12 09:08 AM - Post#2255621
In response to 51Woodie
That they are my friend, the 53' 150 business coupe and the 54' 210 del rey I restored I'm still working on to this day, they run really well but just perfecting the little things on them. The wagon is a complete project car that I havne't started on until now. But, looking forward to getting her back on the road :D
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-04-12 09:11 AM - Post#2255622
In response to eplantage
Your welcome, always an honor to serve. :D And I meant to ask but forgot to before. With a 216 flywheel on a 235 engine, would this throw me off when trying to time the engine? As in are the timing marks on a 216 flywheel the same as the 235 one? 
Edited by soaringeagle on 08-04-12 09:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Panama Red
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08-04-12 09:32 AM - Post#2255631
In response to soaringeagle
Your welcome, always an honor to serve. :D And I meant to ask but forgot to before. With a 216 flywheel on a 235 engine, would this throw me off when trying to time the engine? As in are the timing marks on a 216 flywheel the same as the 235 one?
I can answer that one as I have a 216 flywheel on my 53 235. Alignment marks are the same. I even verified TDC when I rebuilt the engine and made a mark on the balancer with a pointer from the timing cover. The flywheel and balancer are darn near exact.
Edited by Panama Red on 08-04-12 09:32 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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whiskey1954
Contributor
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Reg: 12-07-08
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08-04-12 12:06 PM - Post#2255665
In response to soaringeagle
Soaringeagle: If I am remembering correctly the flywheel is indexed to the crank and will only go on one way
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2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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08-04-12 01:35 PM - Post#2255683
In response to soaringeagle
Ilove my 3:55 and it is matched up to my old 216, in order to get out of town I have to go over one of 3 6,000 ft passes. Only one requires a shift to second gear and that is due to a 25 mile an hour switch back. Just got back from close to 800 miles of highway and mixed town and back road driving, averaged over 18 miles to the gallon. A trip to Canada a few years ago, with the 4:11s got me around 14.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
THOMAS JEFFERSON |
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56sedandelivery
Valued Contributor
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08-04-12 02:25 PM - Post#2255698
In response to 2blu52
There's only .56 difference between the 3.55 and 4.11 gear ratios; just over 1/2 of a revolution of the axle. I would "think" that going with a much larger diameter tire would effect the same thing, at a whole lot less work; especially concidering all that's involved in one of these 49-54 rear ratio changes. Anyone gone this route? Butch/56sedandelivery.
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gwarren007
Member
Posts: 67
Reg: 05-27-03
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08-04-12 02:58 PM - Post#2255721
In response to 56sedandelivery
Using taller tire usally isn't done becase it has really three negative effects-
1. You would need to raise the tire aspect ratio/ tread width to get the needed height, so a 205/75/15 (od = 2.7"), you would need a 235/85/15 (od =30.6)
2. You car now looks like a 4x4
3. with the increase in height, you now have higher wind resistance = more fuel burned.
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2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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08-04-12 05:42 PM - Post#2255759
In response to gwarren007
And there can be an effect on the negative caster set in the front end, wandering could be a problem. I was 75 when I switched the torque tube gear set into my 4:11 rear end. Took me about a total of 8 hours with several coffee breaks included. That was with the car on stands not a hoist. 
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
THOMAS JEFFERSON |
Edited by 2blu52 on 08-04-12 05:43 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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usmile4
"6th Year Gold Supporting Member
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08-04-12 09:12 PM - Post#2255844
In response to 2blu52
When I changed the 4:11 to the 3:55 in my 49 I jsut took off the ubolts and slide the whole rear end out and the 3:55 in. I did it alone and it took less than an hour.
Bill Gommel
49 chevy Styleline (Sold), 51 Styleline 2 dr Special, 235 (from a 61 truck) bored .060 over, Dual Carter/Webers, Fenton Headers, T5- 5 speed with a 56 rear end. |
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-05-12 03:29 AM - Post#2255868
In response to Panama Red
Thank you for the info, it is much appreciated! I'll be sure to paint the dot "white" on the flywheel so I can find it easier, I did that to my 53' and 54' chevys and that makes spotting TDC much easier, than squinting hard with a bright flashlight trying to find it. I'm excited to get this 52' wagon going, I hardly see the wagons anymore and if I do it's usually in the junkyards and not on the road, I think I've seen maybe one or two early wagons restored to original specs and they were awesome! Well, maybe not totally original but they used all 50's technology and didn't rod them out, lower them, etc.
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-05-12 03:32 AM - Post#2255869
In response to usmile4
That's what I was planning on doing, was just swapping out the rear-axle and differential with a 3:55, and hooking the current drive line to that. But I remember you talking about how the rear-ends are a bit longer in the wagon, but that was if I had a whole rear-end with a driveline attached, I'd just be using the rear-axle and the differential of a powerglide.
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whiskey1954
Contributor
Posts: 441
Loc: central north carolina
Reg: 12-07-08
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08-05-12 05:35 AM - Post#2255885
In response to soaringeagle
the driveline or torque tube is connectd to the differential end disconnects at the trans end and then you have what will look to be a big T ( closed driveshaft I am not sure about the length of the shaft if there is any difference or not I would not think there would not be any difference in width I have never dealt with a wagon as much as I would love to I can not remember the last time there was one around here GOOD LUCK
Edited by whiskey1954 on 08-05-12 05:37 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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old51sedan
Contributor
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08-05-12 01:52 PM - Post#2256056
In response to soaringeagle
It's hard for me to believe that a station wagon rearend is longer. A few years back I took the rear differencal and torque tube out of a 54 wagon and transfered it into my 51 sedan with no problem, fits great. I never changed the axle at all.
1951 styleline 2dr deluxe
Original 51 plate, Dealer Tag, Documents
58,000 original miles, second owner
1954 PG 235, rear axle, Power Steering
Fenton Headers With Smitys |
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mahlmann
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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08-05-12 02:56 PM - Post#2256090
In response to old51sedan
I just put a '53 PowerGlide rear end from a sedan into my '50 station wagon - NO difference in length! You had me worried so I measured and they are the SAME!
Mike Ahlmann
Sunnyvale, CA
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soaringeagle
Member
Posts: 36
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Reg: 02-12-06
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08-07-12 03:26 AM - Post#2256669
In response to mahlmann
That is great to hear! I'm glad that rear end worked for your 50' wagon!
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 6-bangertim
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08-07-12 12:25 PM - Post#2256799
In response to soaringeagle
Old racer's rule of thum on gear ratios -
For every tenth of a point you change in FINAL RATIO (.10) will change engine sped by 100 RPM.
At the same road speed, the 3.55 gear will slow down the engine by 400 RPM vs. the 4.11.
Thanks so much for your service!!! Get home safely and GET TO WORK on her!  
Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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bobg1951chevy
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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08-07-12 04:41 PM - Post#2256888
In response to 6-bangertim
Based on your formula, I came up with 560 RPM's. Is that correct?
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