 bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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07-24-12 09:13 PM - Post#2251900
My 69 Corvette, 350 4spd, was stored for about 4 years. When I went to bring it home, the oil gauge showed no oil pressure. I put an auxilary gauge on it and it showed about 5 lbs at idle up to maybe 25 at 2000 rpm. In 03, I put in a new oil pump, did head work, but not sure if I put in rings. I had been autocrossing that engine, but it was in good shape, just wanted to check it out at the time. So, after working on it in 03, it ran great, no oil problems until I put it in storage in 08. I've changed oil and filter, but no change. It doesn't smoke. I haven't checked the compression yet. It's a 300 hp with the 350 hp cam. Otherwise, stock. Any ideas?
Thanks, Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
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 MikeB
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07-25-12 05:57 AM - Post#2251969
In response to bowtiefan
Could the gauge not be working? I'd buy a cheap mechanical gauge and connect it to the oil pressure port (1/8" pipe thread) that's probably on the front of your block -- just above the timing chain cover on the passengers side.
Also, a quick check would be to remove a valve cover to see if the rocker arms are filled with oil. If you have no oil pressure, there would be no oil sitting in the rocker arms after running the engine, even for a couple seconds. Don't run the engine with the cover off, because if you do have pressure, it will make a mess!
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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07-25-12 07:40 AM - Post#2252005
In response to MikeB
As I said, I put an auxilary mechanical gauge on it, and that's when it showed low pressure, as opposed to the factory gauge that showed zero. I put the auxilary gauge on another car as a check and it is working correctly. I have low pressure, not zero. I pushed a wire into the hole in the block where the gauge attaches, but didn't make any difference.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
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Doc Fillem
Forum Newbie
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07-25-12 09:46 AM - Post#2252032
In response to bowtiefan
I've heard the rule of thumb with oil pressure is 10 lbs. for every 1,000 rpm. So even though it's a little low it's still pretty close. Maybe change the oil and go with a little higher viscosity.
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MikeB
Senior Member
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07-25-12 05:30 PM - Post#2252168
In response to bowtiefan
As I said, I put an auxilary mechanical gauge on it, and that's when it showed low pressure, as opposed to the factory gauge that showed zero. I put the auxilary gauge on another car as a check and it is working correctly. I have low pressure, not zero. I pushed a wire into the hole in the block where the gauge attaches, but didn't make any difference.
Ken
Sorry. I thought you were saying you put a mech gauge on it back before you stored it 
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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Edited by MikeB on 07-25-12 05:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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07-25-12 09:02 PM - Post#2252249
In response to MikeB
That's OK Mike, sometimes I'm not always clear.
Doc, it should have about 30 psi at idle, so I still need some ideas guys. Guess I'll have to pull the pan if the compression checks out, but not sure what good that will do. It's a new pump with probably less than 2000 miles on it, so what can go wrong just sitting? Should I run some Marvel Mystery oil in it? I'm a little affraid to run it too much with that low of pressure.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
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56sedandelivery
Valued Contributor
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07-25-12 10:40 PM - Post#2252268
In response to bowtiefan
Maybe the pickup screen is partially blocked with sediment after sitting for 3 years; or possibly some other oil passage. IF it's getting oil to the valvetrain, run it till it's up to operating temp, do a flush, drain and refill and change the oil filter. I don't think you could have wiped the bearings after sitting and not running, but it's a possibility. Good luck. Butch/56sedandelivery.
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MikeB
Senior Member
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07-26-12 05:56 AM - Post#2252319
In response to bowtiefan
5 psi at idle and 25 psi at 2000 RPM is not going to ruin the engine, but even with a stock pump, I'd expect to see 15-20 at idle and 35-45 at higher RPMs.
Do you remember what the pressure was back before your stored it?
Typically, low oil pressure is a function of main and rod bearing clearances.
As suggested above, I'd try higher viscosity oil -- maybe 20w50. And if that doesn't do the trick, take a look at the pickup screen.
I have no experience with Marvel and those type products.
Ah, I just remembered this: When I bought my 55 many years ago, it had a 350 with low oil pressure very similar to yours. Anyway, I installed a new high volume, high pressure Melling M55HV pump and changed the rod bearings. Pressure then jumped significantly. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I'd guess they were 15-20 at idle and 45 on the highway. That engine ran great for another 3-4 years, and when I sold it, it was still making good oil pressure.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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Edited by MikeB on 07-26-12 05:58 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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inline0_0
"10th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Loc: Arizona desert
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07-26-12 10:36 AM - Post#2252395
In response to MikeB
Hard to imagine that any bearing or pump gear clearances have changed. Maybe the pump ball relief got a something lodged under it. And, even though its not the correct PSI for your motor, lots of others run their life at those pressures. Industrial Diesels for one.
Doug
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vet65te
Senior Member
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Loc: NorCal Now, Prescott AZ S...
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07-26-12 10:37 AM - Post#2252396
In response to bowtiefan
Ken, I think you should find out who sold you that engine and knock on the guy's door. Uh-oh, I think it was me but, it was just a bunch of machined parts and it was '30-years ago'  .
Back in '03, when you did some work to the engine, was the oil pump replacement just one of those 'while I'm in there' things or were you seeing any drop in pressure before that?
Mike T.
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bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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07-26-12 01:25 PM - Post#2252424
In response to vet65te
Mike, I think I want my money back. After all, didn't that pile of parts come with a lifetime warrenty! 
The higher viscosity oil makes sense, except that I know it had 30w in it when I stored it, and now it has Delo 400 15-40, but the oil pressure was low before I changed it, so not sure that is the problem. I'm thinking I'll run some Marvel Mystery Oil in it and get it up to operating temp. Can't see how that will hurt anything, and then pull the pan if no improvement. The oil pump was new in '03, and though I can't swear to it, I'm sure the pressure was good, or I wouldn't have driven it.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
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Edited by bowtiefan on 07-26-12 01:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Rick_L
Honored Member
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07-26-12 03:20 PM - Post#2252461
In response to bowtiefan
5 psi at idle is not a problem, but 25 psi going down the road is in my opinion. You at least need 40-45.
I wonder if the pickup is still on the pump.
The 15W40 should have made a difference if it was just clearances.
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vet65te
Senior Member
Posts: 396
Loc: NorCal Now, Prescott AZ S...
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07-26-12 06:46 PM - Post#2252510
In response to Rick_L
Ken, that is a very good possibility that the oil pickup has fallen off. Since you had no other mechanical problems between the time you did the engine work to the time it went into storage, that would explain why the oil pressure has dropped so much. Was it just a press fit into the pump body or do you remember having it welded/brazed?
Mike T.
Edited by vet65te on 07-26-12 06:47 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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 6-bangertim
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1892
Age: 55
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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07-27-12 01:24 PM - Post#2252718
In response to bowtiefan
Ken, are you getting oil upstairs to the rockers?
Maybe plug in a gauge at the front of the block?
I'm thinking the pick-up came loose from the pump and it's sucking air with the oil. 
Jeeze, I HATE to say it - pull the pan for a look-see at the pump. Could be a piece of crud is hanging the bi-pass open a little. May not hurt to plasti-gauge the bearings while it's open. Prime the motor with a drill before you fire it, watch the gauge.
Wish I can think of an easy solution...  Take a close look at the pan gasket. If it gets OVERTIGHTENED, it could break and a piece gets sucked up against the pick-up. Had that happen on my stock car once - what a PITA to fix in the pits!  
Mucho Luck Ken! Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2023
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Reg: 02-19-04
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07-28-12 06:15 PM - Post#2253134
In response to 6-bangertim
Yesterday, I put in a can of Marvel Mystery oil that I had and ran it until it was up to operating temp, at about 1400 rpm. As it got hotl, the oil pressure dropped. So today, I pulled one valve cover, (not running) and although there was some oil, there wasn't much. So I pulled the pan. The oil pump was clean, so I checked a couple rod bearings and they plastigaged out at about 0.001, so they are probably all good. So I took the oil pump apart and checked it. The gears mesh good, but I get 0.002 and 0.003 clearance on the outside. My old Chiltons says no more than .002-.003, so I'm right at the limit. So I think I'll replace the oil pump. It was new in '03 with very few miles, and it has raised USA on the castings, but I needed a 10mm wrench to get it apart. I have a probably 30 year old high volume pump I might put in it. It has USA cast in the pieces except it is indented like it's been stamped, and a 3/8" wrench fits it. Makes me really suspect the other pump. I'll let you know what happens.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
http://www.picturetrail.com/ken58 |
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MikeB
Senior Member
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07-28-12 07:04 PM - Post#2253151
In response to bowtiefan
Be sure to use some clay or Play-Doh to set pickup-to-pan clearance. If your spare pump is high volume, those typically come with a high pressure spring.
Also, use a good quality shaft with steel coupler, like the Melling IS-55E. You can get them at just about any parts store.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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6-bangertim
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1892
Age: 55
Loc: El Cajon, Calif.
Reg: 11-30-08
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07-29-12 12:23 AM - Post#2253219
In response to bowtiefan
Ken, BE VERY CAREFUL with the oil pump gasket you use. I wouldn't trust an aftermarket gasket unless I KNEW FOR A FACT that it was the same thickness as a factory gasket. You shouldn't need a hi-volume pump for good pressure. Check the gear and cover to housing clearances. Sand both the cover and housing with wet-n-dry paper to make sure both surfaces are true. Also check out the bypass to make sure it's seating OK and not hung up a little. If anything looks iffy, I'd s-can it and hit the Chevy Store for a new pump. Really, REALLY cheap compared to a spun bearing. Ask me how I know! 
I like to use brush-on sealer on both sides of the gasket, then assemble the pump and torque the screws. I then take it apart to wipe away the sealer that squeezed out - then assemble for good.
So, how's the Six running these days??? 
Mucho Luck 'n Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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SteveW
Senior Member
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07-29-12 09:11 AM - Post#2253306
In response to bowtiefan
My son has a 69 Camaro with 327 that has good oil pressure while he is driving But when he stops it drops to 5 pounds. He is not driving it right now until he finds out what it is.
He said as soon as he leaves a red light it jumps back up and stays up till the next stop. Somebody told him it may be the cam bearings.
Thats something I guess I need to ask Rick_L .
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9389
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Reg: 08-28-03
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07-29-12 07:19 PM - Post#2253502
In response to SteveW
Steve W -- Has the oil pressure at idle always been that low, or did it gradually drop over the years? What is the pressure at 2500 RPM?
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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SteveW
Senior Member
Posts: 1348
Loc: Shreveport
Reg: 04-24-02
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07-29-12 09:52 PM - Post#2253555
In response to MikeB
Its been about 2 years ago when he parked it. He said it seems like it stayed around 40 pounds while he was driving but as soon as he stopped it droped down, then went back up when he would take off.
He said he parked it until he either had time to take out the motor and have it rebuilt or till he bought a crate 350.
The motor runs good but he doesnt like looking at 5 pounds and not knowing if it will drop lower.
He bought a 67 Chevelle and thats where he got the 327 motor. He said the guy that he bought it from said the motor had been rebuilt not long before he bought it. Once he put it in his Camaro thats the way its been from the get go, about 5 pounds every time he stopped. Some of his friends said its most likely the cam bearing.
I just dont know .
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bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2023
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07-30-12 08:11 AM - Post#2253660
In response to SteveW
It was suggested to me also that it could be cam bearings, but I can't see them going bad just sitting. It was also suggested that it could be the oil passeges that go into the timing chain area, the plugs may be loose. Both ideas are possible, but I'll leave them to last. I'm going to try and get a Chevy oil pump today.
Tim, the 235 is still running great. Saw a car at the Nomad convention you would love. An originally equipt '57 Nomad, 235/ 3 spd, loaded including ps, pb, & A/C! That poor little 6 must be working it's heart out.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
http://www.picturetrail.com/ken58 |
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Rick_L
Honored Member
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07-30-12 03:09 PM - Post#2253846
In response to SteveW
Steve W, I've seen several SBCs including a some of my own that idled at 5 psi oil pressure.
I think a lot of them were built that way. Remember that most cars don't have a gauge, only an idiot light.
As far as clearances that reduce the oil pressure, anything with clearance contributes, cam bearings included.
As long as you register something on the gauge at idle, and the pressure increases immediately when you open the throttle, I don't think there's cause for alarm.
I have seen an engine (mine) that lost oil pressure after warming and after the throttle was opened. It turned out that it was a poor fit of the manifold and distributor - the groove in the distributor was not lined up with the oil holes in the distributor bore of the block. It was a highly modified manifold. As I tried to diagnose that problem, I found several other things "not right". But in the end they weren't the culprit.
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50hotrod
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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07-31-12 07:15 AM - Post#2254117
In response to Rick_L
"It was also suggested that it could be the oil passeges that go into the timing chain area, the plugs may be loose".
Common problem especially if someone inexperienced installed the new oil galley plugs. I always drill and pipe tap these, then install pipe plugs just like the rear oil galley holes have.
Well, you know what's wrong with the world today
People done gone and put their Bible's away
They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land
"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels
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bowtiefan
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2023
Loc: Vacaville, CA
Reg: 02-19-04
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08-01-12 07:39 AM - Post#2254452
In response to 50hotrod
I put in a new oil pump. Had to get one from NAPA as Chevy doesn't even list a standard pump anymore, just a high volume. Couldn't use the good used high volume pump I have because the pickup is welded on and it's for a different pan and won't fit. Blew out the oil passages at the oil pump and also on the top of the block where the gauge attaches. Filled it with 30w oil but the end result was still the same. So, it must be something deeper inside, so I'm just going to set it aside for now and concentrate on getting my Nomad on the road.
Thanks for the ideas. I'll keep them all in mind when I get back to it.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
http://www.picturetrail.com/ken58 |
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GottaSS
Forum Newbie
Posts: 54
Reg: 07-16-12
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08-03-12 05:19 PM - Post#2255450
In response to bowtiefan
I don't know what kind of distributor you have but the MSD manual states that high volume oil pumps are hard on the distributor.
You may want to consider removing your distributor and checking the tang at the bottom that engages the oil pump to see if it is worn, chipped, galled, etc. Then look down the hole at the slot at the bottom to be sure it looks o.k. as well.
Rent or buy a distributor set up tool (they aren't that expensive and a nice addition to your tool box). Insert the tool down into the hole until it engages the oil pump slot. Using a drill capable of delivering at least 2,000 rpm, start turning the set up tool (clockwise) while observing the oil pressure. Use the tool, don't try to do this with a long slotted screw driver. If you use a screw driver you will not get flow to one of the banks of the cylinder heads and no oil will flow from the rocker or push rods on one side.
GM states that the oil pressure at idle can be as low as 5 psi but should be 40 psi at 2,000 rpm.
Your distributor should also have at least 1/4" of engagement of the slot and tang when fully inserted in the block. Generally, the collar at the top of the distributor that seals to the manifold is adjustable to allow for full engagement of the oil drive tang at the bottom.
Good luck and I hope your issue is as easy to find as checking the drive mechanism of your distributor. Maybe you didn't have much engagement and it got worse over the years.
Edited by GottaSS on 08-03-12 05:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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