Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-23-12 11:23 AM - Post#2251221
I am replacing an Edelbrock injection system with an Avenger throttle body system on a 440 Chrysler. There is a Mallory 3 wire distributor that I would like to use if possible.
How do I connect this up to the Holley loom?
I have a MSD ignition box that I would like to use if possible.
Thanks in advance
Steve
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L48M20
Senior Member
Posts: 308
Loc: Tampa, Florida
Reg: 09-13-04
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07-23-12 11:55 AM - Post#2251226
In response to Steve P
Have you reviewed the wiring diagrams in the instruction manuals?
Link: Link
I know the MSD can be hooked up, but I haven't tried mine yet. There should be a few threads on the subject if you do a search.
1969 Nova SS
EFI 407 / TKO600 / 4.11
405 WHP
12.07 at 116 |
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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07-23-12 03:02 PM - Post#2251283
In response to Steve P
I am replacing an Edelbrock injection system with an Avenger throttle body system on a 440 Chrysler.
Which Edelbrock EFI system is it? MPFI, TBI, etc.?
There is a Mallory 3 wire distributor that I would like to use if possible. How do I connect this up to the Holley loom? I have a MSD ignition box that I would like to use if possible.
If it's a 12V Hall-Effect sensor, wire it like this:
http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Tech nical/1... (Figure 11, page 19)
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-23-12 03:13 PM - Post#2251290
In response to Danny Cabral
Thanks Danny.
Its a multi point system but has never run at 100% since being fitted so the owner wants a system that can be calibrated correctly.
I have red, black and a silver wire coming out of the distributor. Fig 11 shows yellow black and orange, which goes to which?
Steve
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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07-23-12 03:38 PM - Post#2251305
In response to Steve P
Its a multi-port system but has never run at 100% since being fitted, so the owner wants a system that can be calibrated correctly.
Don't remove the multi-port EFI, that's a downgrade. Holley sells ECU & Harness Kits. He can reuse all his existing hardware (distributor & manifold assembly). Why spend more money?
I have red, black and a silver wire coming out of the distributor. Fig 11 shows yellow black and orange, which goes to which?
Red wire = Switched 12V
Black wire = Crank Input
Bare Wire = IPU Ground
(Figure 11 illustrates the Holley harness colors, not the Edelbrock harness.)
Read this link below. If the Mallory distributor has one narrow shutter blade (1 of 8), it will need to be modified for use with the Holley EFI system. If all shutter blades are the same width, it's ready to be used.
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?ti...
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-23-12 04:10 PM - Post#2251328
In response to Danny Cabral
That was the original idea but the owner decided he wants all new.
He is going to sell the old system to recoup some of the cost as there will be somebody out there who will buy it.
Thanks for the wiring instructions,I will get it connected in the next couple of days and hopefully get its started.
This is the first Avenger system I have installed so it will be interesting. I have installed many commander systems so will be interesting to see how it works.
Steve
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-24-12 09:19 AM - Post#2251616
In response to Steve P
I have been all day on this and got it all hooked up. I have connected the white wire to the MSD ignition box but I have no sparks?
If I disconnect this wire and ground the white wire from the ignition box I do get sparks,why is the Avenger ECU not earthing the box. If I crank it I get an RPM showing on my laptop so the wires from the Mallory to the Holley loom must be correct.
Why does it say the only ignition it can have control on is GM Distributors?
What have I done wrong?
Thanks
Steve
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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07-24-12 01:24 PM - Post#2251716
In response to Steve P
I have connected the white wire to the MSD ignition box but I have no sparks? What have I done wrong?
How is the software's "Ignition Parameters" configured (Ignition Type)?
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-24-12 01:47 PM - Post#2251724
In response to Danny Cabral
GM HEI.
Is that correct?
Steve
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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07-24-12 01:51 PM - Post#2251725
In response to Steve P
GM HEI. Is that correct?
No.
You need to select:
Ignition Type - "Custom"
Crank Sensor Type - "1 Pulse/Fire"
Sensor Type - "Digital Falling"
Ignition Reference Angle - 60°
Cam Sensor - "Not Used"
Output Setup Type - "Points Output"
Dwell Time - "2.0 msec"
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-24-12 02:23 PM - Post#2251733
In response to Danny Cabral
Thanks Danny, that fixed it. I am now getting a spark.
Sorry to keep asking questions but how do I know what type of Lambda sensor I have? The one that came in the kit has ''Holley on it but the options are Bosch or NTK?
As it is gone 10pm here ( UK ) I wont start it until tomorrow. But as I have fuel and now spark I am sure it will fire up.
What a great forum this is.
Thanks
Steve
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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07-24-12 02:38 PM - Post#2251736
In response to Steve P
Sorry to keep asking questions but how do I know what type of Lambda sensor I have? The one that came in the kit has Holley on it, but the options are Bosch or NTK?
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showpost.php?pos... (Bosch LSU4.2, NTK UEGO & WBO2 extension harness)
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-25-12 01:02 PM - Post#2252082
In response to Danny Cabral
Thankyou, I have had it running today after some troubles.
First of all I had a faulty map sensor, luckily I had a spare one in stock. It was trying to idle at the top of the map.
Then the second problem I keep having my laptop keeps loosing communication with the ECU and I get the message ''DIRTY'' what ever that means?
I also seem to have a Lambda fixed on 35.6 and it wont self learn even though I have that box ticked.
I have found it runs better with the enable closed loop not ticked. I have tried both ways but it makes no difference to the Lambda.
While I had communication with ECU I changed some numbers manually and it will idle and rev. I used my remote wide band to get a good idle.
Steve
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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07-25-12 05:47 PM - Post#2252172
In response to Steve P
Then the second problem I keep having my laptop keeps loosing communication with the ECU and I get the message "DIRTY" what ever that means?
That message at the lower right hand corner of the screen, is just software developer info, and of no use to the end user.
Concerning the laptop communication loss, which software and firmware versions do you have?
Software: click "Help" & "About Holley EFI". Firmware: click "Sync With ECU" & "Get ECU Info" (Key-on/USB connected).
The latest software (1.5.0.1) & second to latest firmware (0397) can be downloaded here: http://www.holley.com/TechService/Library.asp#Fuel...
Also, which computer operating system are you using? Have you tried right clicking on the EFI desktop icon and running the program as an administrator?
I also seem to have a Lambda fixed on 35.6 and it wont self learn even though I have that box ticked.
You may have a defective wideband O2 sensor. Are the Engine Parameters set correctly?
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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07-26-12 12:06 AM - Post#2252274
In response to Danny Cabral
I will check the software later.
Yes I was on the phone to Holley and apparently they have a batch of Bosch sensors that are doing this. They have authorised Summit to send me replacements for the 2 faulty sensors. They are going to send me a NTK which does not have this fault.
I will have to wait a week for the components to arrive here in the UK though.
Thanks for you help Danny. I will keep you updated.
Steve
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-14-12 05:22 AM - Post#2259057
In response to Steve P
The new NTK sensor has turned up.
I have installed it changed the box in the parameters to NTK but now it is fixed at 27.5 or Uncal!. I have also seen Calib.... I have left it like this for a while but nothing seems to change.
Any ideas? Does the calibration take a long time. I have left it hanging in fresh air but that seem to make no difference.
Steve
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-14-12 01:13 PM - Post#2259206
In response to Steve P
I rung Holley technical. It seems they have a few harnesses out there with the plugs for the lambda sensor wired wrongly.
It turned out the shielded wire and the black wire were reversed, I took the plug apart and swapped the wires over and its all OK now.
Just been a for a 20 mile drive, the self learning seems to take a while, how many miles in other peoples experience do they take to get the tuning 100% correct? Also it seems to bog down just idle off unless I give it a lot of throttle,will it fix this itself or do I need to add or subtract some enrichment?
Thanks
Steve
Edited by Steve P on 08-14-12 01:14 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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L48M20
Senior Member
Posts: 308
Loc: Tampa, Florida
Reg: 09-13-04
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08-14-12 01:50 PM - Post#2259223
In response to Steve P
Incorrect wiring...that is frustrating especially for someone that is a beginner (read me). At least Holley Support came thru.
You can leave the learning on indefinitely...the manual states this...as well as decreasing the percentage to a small amount.
I'm thinking much more than 20 miles...the engine will likely not reach all parameters during that time especially if it is a manual trans.
You will still need to tweak some areas such as your comment on throttle tip in/accel. The learning is only the base fuel map.
1969 Nova SS
EFI 407 / TKO600 / 4.11
405 WHP
12.07 at 116 |
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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08-14-12 01:55 PM - Post#2259227
In response to Steve P
I rung Holley technical. It seems they have a few harnesses out there with the plugs for the lambda sensor wired wrongly.
It turned out the shielded wire and the black wire were reversed, I took the plug apart and swapped the wires over and its all OK now.
I was going to mention this, but I was afraid you'd ask me for the WBO2 sensor pin-out.
Just been a for a 20 mile drive, the self learning seems to take a while, how many miles in other peoples experience do they take to get the tuning 100% correct? Also it seems to bog down just idle off unless I give it a lot of throttle, will it fix this itself or do I need to add or subtract some enrichment?
Learning isn't active during periods of acceleration enrichment or deceleration.
The engine needs to be at "steady-state" RPM for the Learning to function.
Also, Acceleration Enrichment can only be tuned after the Base Fuel Table is tuned.
Which engine file did you start off with? (What are your Learn Parameters set at?)
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-14-12 02:48 PM - Post#2259241
In response to Danny Cabral
It was easy to see how they made the mistake, the shielded wire had a black plastic cover.
The base program I loaded was through the hand held controller for a unknown cam for a 440 engine. It seems about right around idle but way off everywhere else.
I have left everything alone as I presumed Holley knew what they were doing when the wrote the program.
I will take it for a long drive at the weekend to get it in tune.
Steve
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-18-12 04:37 PM - Post#2260718
In response to Steve P
Have been tuning all day, I found the auto tune would not work. It kept trying to richen it up to the point of madness.
In the end I switched self learn off and did it the old fashioned way. After about an hour I had it about 90% there but noticed every few seconds the lambda output would flash for a few seconds very lean, I have found in the past this is usually an indication that there is a misfire. The plugs are new as well as the ignition wires and coil ( blaster 2 ) The voltage at the + side of the coil is correct. I have tried another ignition box but it made no difference.
At anything over 1/2 throttle and it does not do it. It is set at high 14's for cruise and seems to be running at this most of the time. I have tried richening it up and it still does it.
Also idle feels like I have a high lift cam, I dont but the engine has a lope going on and I suspect this is also an indication of a slight misfire.
Idle is set for 750 with a a fuel air ratio of 13.8. I have tried richer and leaner and it gets worse as I lean it off but no better as I richen it up even if I go to mid 12's.
I have left the ignition map as it came from Holley and the distributor and timing marks are aligned.
What would cause a misfire at high vacuum or low throttle openings only?
I like the ease of use with the new software for manual tuning compared with old commander system.
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zwede
Senior Member
Posts: 1501
Reg: 01-10-03
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08-18-12 05:15 PM - Post#2260728
In response to Steve P
Maybe a long shot, but do you have aftermarket valve covers? Many have crappy PCV oil baffles that allow the engine to suck oil through the PCV. Low throttle -> high vacuum -> sucks more oil -> misfire.
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-18-12 06:12 PM - Post#2260743
In response to zwede
No I dont but maybe I have a faulty PCV valve or maybe they have been removed?
Thanks, I will check it in the morning. I suppose I could blank it off temporarily to see if it gets any better?
Thanks
Steve
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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08-18-12 06:36 PM - Post#2260748
In response to Steve P
Have been tuning all day, I found the auto tune would not work. It kept trying to richen it up to the point of madness. In the end I switched self learn off and did it the old fashioned way.
The self-tuning most certainly does work, and it works very well!
The Learning self-tuned my Fuel Table in about two hours, and I've never touched it since!
A misfire will cause a "false lean" condition, and therefore fools the ECU to continuously add fuel.
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-19-12 01:06 AM - Post#2260828
In response to Danny Cabral
The self-tuning most certainly does work, and it works very well!
The Learning self-tuned my Fuel Table in about two hours, and I've never touched it since!
A misfire will cause a "false lean" condition, and therefore fools the ECU to continuously add fuel.
I know it does Danny. I have seem it work. The manual tune is also much easier than before.
I just need to find out what is causing the misfire, any ideas? I will have a look at the distributor cap and rotor arm but here in the UK these parts are difficult to get so hopefully they will be OK. Everything else is new.
Steve
Edited by Steve P on 08-19-12 01:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3149
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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08-19-12 05:05 AM - Post#2260849
In response to Steve P
I just need to find out what is causing the misfire, any ideas?
The misfire may not be ignition related:
Ensure the exhaust system is sealed tight, upstream of the WBO2 sensor.
Ensure there are no vacuum leaks on that side either.
Ensure there isn't oil fouling, inspect all spark plugs.
Ensure fuel pressure is consistent and all injectors are firing consistently.
Ensure the engine block and ECU wiring is well grounded.
Datalog it and look for RPM Errors or other causes of fault.
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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