nicke
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07-18-12 10:34 AM - Post#2249504
Hey Guys, one of the next things I have been thinking about doing to the 65 is upgrading the sway bars. I currently only have the front stock one. I know Hotchkis makes performance bars for the front and rear, and so does UMI and Global West. Do any of you have experience with any of these?
Also, I am toying with the idea of upgrading my stock 4 link rear with the boxed hotchkis trailing arms, and new poly bushings. Any experience with this? Does it really make that much of a difference?
Right now I am 2" lower in the front from dropped spindles, and 3" in the back via springs. Also, I have a 12.7-1 ratio steering box, and new front end components. Just looking to get the best handling possible...
-Nick
Edited by nicke on 07-18-12 10:34 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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maddjeff
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07-18-12 10:39 AM - Post#2249508
In response to nicke
Interested in this as well. I see a lot of people are boxing their stock arms now. Makes sense from a strengthening perspective. Curious if Hotchkis arms are that much better then do-it-yourself.
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nicke
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07-18-12 10:44 AM - Post#2249512
In response to maddjeff
Interested in this as well. I see a lot of people are boxing their stock arms now. Makes sense from a strengthening perspective. Curious if Hotchkis arms are that much better then do-it-yourself.
Exactly, they look pretty easy to box, wondering if there is really that much flex in the arms in stock form. Anyone have experience with the boxed stock arms?
-Nick
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 427SS65
"9th Year" Platinum Supporting Member & Moderator
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07-18-12 11:15 AM - Post#2249532
In response to nicke
I did mine in 1995 or so. Pics on my Flickr site.
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 590
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Loc: Spokane, Washington
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07-18-12 11:50 AM - Post#2249541
In response to 427SS65
I did mine in 1995 or so. Pics on my Flickr site.
Great pics Tom. Looks like you boxed the lower arms, but didn't modify the uppers at all right? I also see new poly bushings on it all.
How did this change the "feel" of the car? Was there much of a difference?
-Nick
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 ss3964spd
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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07-18-12 12:03 PM - Post#2249546
In response to 427SS65
IMO, you won't see any noticeable difference in handling with boxed arms. Strength wise - when's the last time anyone has heard about someone actually breaking a control arm?
By far the biggest bang for your buck is upgrading the sway (roll) bars. Going to harder bushings will also make a difference, but at the cost of compliance and articulation.
The stock front bar is 13/16". Going to a 1 1/4" bar in the front, and a 7/8" or 1" bar in the back will be more than sufficient.
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent. My ability to access it is not.
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nicke
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07-18-12 12:15 PM - Post#2249548
In response to ss3964spd
IMO, you won't see any noticeable difference in handling with boxed arms. Strength wise - when's the last time anyone has heard about someone actually breaking a control arm?
By far the biggest bang for your buck is upgrading the sway (roll) bars. Going to harder bushings will also make a difference, but at the cost of compliance and articulation.
The stock front bar is 13/16". Going to a 1 1/4" bar in the front, and a 7/8" or 1" bar in the back will be more than sufficient.
Can you speak a little more to the negative affects of sway bars? How are compliance and articulation negatively affected?
-Nick
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ss3964spd
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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07-18-12 12:32 PM - Post#2249551
In response to nicke
Not so much sway bars Nick, but bushings.
The basic way a sway bar works is by twisting. It is a torsion spring. If the right side and left side of the suspension went up and down at the same time - like when hitting a big dip, a sway bar, or even harder bushings, have little effect on ride quality.
Sway bars are a way of maintaining a softer over all ride (softer coils) and yet increasing roll stiffness. The sway bar actually acts like a spring by making the left side of the suspension stiffer in a right hand turn, and right side stiffer in a left hander.
You could achive roll control by using stiffer coil springs (NASCAR, for instance, doesn't use sway bars I don't think) but then the over all ride becomes stiffer.
Dan
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent. My ability to access it is not.
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65ragtop
Member
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Loc: Sacramento, CA
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07-19-12 02:20 AM - Post#2249785
In response to nicke
Back in '03 I put Hotchkis stuff on my '65 BB conv. The 2253 sway bars and the 1814 upper and lower trailing arms and the pan hard rod.
I put Edelbrock IAS shocks on all four corners as well as Classic Performance Products (site supporter!) lowering springs and 235/60-15 BFGoodrich T/A's and a 12:1 gear box. The car is tight and real flat through corners, and I know it'll outhandle (and out accellerate) the CHP's Crown Vics.
Keep in mind I don't condone ANY unlawful activity whatsoever, nor do I condone the abuse of one of these vehicles. I take care of others, myself and my car. In that order. 
I shouldn't have to say it, but whether you're running through Laguna Seca or an off-ramp, begin slow until you get used to the new handling.
Here's the problems/shortcomings of the setup I'm running:
1) These are still heavy cars. There may be no body roll, but the coefficient of friction 'tween the rubber and the road just isn't there. Fortunately it's an even and predictable slide - all 4 tires lose it at the same time, so it's easy to control and predict. Different shocks and wheel/tire size will affect this as well as tire composition.
And
2) IAS shocks. They are a bit stiffer than I'd like. Uneven pavement makes the CD player skip. Very annoying. To do it again I'd look at the QA1's, Eibach, or the good old KYB Gas-Adjusts.
If your avatar is a pic of your car, with those low profile tires I'd suggest the KYB's, since the sidewall can't flex to absorb shock, the shock will have to. Look at Formula 1 cars, very stiff frame and suspension, but tall sidewalls. Something has to give. The rice burners who slam the car to the ground, have no suspension travel and 1/2" sidewalls are ripping the welds where the front strut mounts are welded to the unibody. Instant collision.
The Hotchkis sway bars are much beefier than stock, and the rear didn't have one (no F40 RPO). The double adjustable uppers are wonderful to set the proper pinion angle, and they are a piece of art. If Hotchkis made anything for the front suspension, I'd put it on in a heartbeat. Their stuff is good.
The control arms aren't likely to break, as SS3964SPD stated, but they will flex. The stock u-shaped stamped steel control arms will twist when given high lateral stress, and just as rubber bushings will 'give' to achieve a softer ride, this will add body roll. Boxed control arms will not flex. Just picking up a Hotchkis control arm told me there was a huge difference. You really gotta' see the stock vs. Hotchkis in your hand to appreciate this. Note: if you're trying to lighten you car as much as possible, these are not for you. They weigh like 30 lbs each. Stock ones are 5 lbs.
I heard lots of warnings about the poly bushings being noisy, 'squeaking, creaking or groaning'. I have not experienced any such trouble yet, but it's only been 9 years. 
I have no knowledge or experience with the UMI or Global West items.
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models916
Frequent Contributor
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07-19-12 06:46 AM - Post#2249838
In response to ss3964spd
Hotchkis corrects the original geometry of the lower arms and strengthens them for twist and bend. Stock lower arms will BEND or TWIST not break. They bend on hard acceleration around turns if you get traction.
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ss3964spd
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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07-19-12 08:03 AM - Post#2249852
In response to models916
Great info 65rag.
In strictly logical terms stiffer bushings, especially in the rear, will decrease suspension compliance and, when only one side has to travel up or down, articulation. The compliance is easy to explain; stiffer bushings pass more impact energy into the frame of the car. Articulation is a little more complex but think about this. If the right wheel of a solid (live) axle remains stationary but the left goes up and down through its full travel it is actually moving through an arch. As it does, the bushings actually twist in the horizontal plane. The CA's also twist but much less so than the bushings. If you increase bushing stiffness the CA's will twist more for the same amount of suspension travel. If you also beef up the CA's - how is that twist handled? Basically the suspension is binding. The bushings are not flexing much, nor are the CA's. The suspension travel is effectively decreased.
In other words, if the rear of the car is on the ground and you jack up just one side, the suspension will rise by X amount before the body moves. Install stiff bushings and CA's and jack up the one side again. The suspension will now move less before the body does. Theoretically, if you replaced all the bushings with solid ones, and eliminated ALL the flex in the control arms and their mounting points, you wouldn't be able to jack up one side without the other also going up. Theoretically.
It is similar, but not nearly as severe, for the front suspension because each side is independent from the other.
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent. My ability to access it is not.
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 590
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07-19-12 08:25 AM - Post#2249857
In response to ss3964spd
Great info guys! I appreciate it!
-Nick
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 aghaga
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07-19-12 09:02 AM - Post#2249870
In response to nicke
Im using a factory 15/16" F-40 front bar and a 1" Addeco rear bar. S-10 front springs and cargo springs on the rear.The body roll is greatly reduced while driving the mountain roads. A semi-bounce sensation is noticeable in the rear when crossing railroad tracks or traveling on a ruff road. I believe this is due to the rear bar causing the body to squat evenly across the rear. I plan to change out the rear Monro sence-a-track shocks to a more agressive shock to counter the bounce.
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 LRH
Gold Supporting Member
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Loc: USA
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07-19-12 08:58 PM - Post#2250117
In response to aghaga
My non truck experiences with adding rear sway bars is on 65-67 A bodies; and the lower control arms do need to be boxed or at least make up a large OD spacer with the ID slightly larger than the bolt passing through the LCA. A thick bar will twist/flex the thin 3 sided steel until it deforms and forms cracks/tears. This is all with the factory rear bar off of Olds 442's back when they were easily found. I don't know how the aftermarket manufacturers suggest currently. It helps to have the shim pack also. On the front if B bodies are like the A's the clamps holding the bar to frame are just 5/16" self tapping screws and will strip or pull out. Of course the B is wider than the A body so the bars will not interchange, so I mentioned this just to say the front frame horns may not use anything but a self tapping bolt. We always made up drilled/tapped weld plates which were welded on over the stripped holes, or could be fished inside frame with a piece of wire if the bumper was removed. We were buying new Trans-Am 1.25" bars and later they had a larger, 1.375" IIRC. Now for what matters on the B bodies as well as any car; flat handling was a day and night difference. If you drove one for a while with large front bar/added rear bar you would feel like you were piloting a boat when you went back to a car not equipped.
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65ragtop
Member
Posts: 209
Loc: Sacramento, CA
Reg: 04-04-03
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07-20-12 01:21 AM - Post#2250156
In response to ss3964spd
If the right wheel of a solid (live) axle remains stationary but the left goes up and down through its full travel it is actually moving through an arch. As it does, the bushings actually twist in the horizontal plane. The CA's also twist but much less so than the bushings. If you increase bushing stiffness the CA's will twist more for the same amount of suspension travel.
In other words, if the rear of the car is on the ground and you jack up just one side, the suspension will rise by X amount before the body moves. Install stiff bushings and CA's and jack up the one side again. The suspension will now move less before the body does. Theoretically, if you replaced all the bushings with solid ones, and eliminated ALL the flex in the control arms and their mounting points, you wouldn't be able to jack up one side without the other also going up. Theoretically.
Exactly. The whole diffy will take the jolt, and if the shocks are stiff it'll skip or jump over the bump instead of absorbing it. That's why my CD player skips; shocks are stiff and the whole car jumps over sharp jolts like railroad tracks, and that jolt is transferred right to the player.
And for your theoretical thoughts, they aren't just theory. Jack up a new (insert sports car name here) and you can get both wheels off the ground just by placing the jack under one side. Did the brakes on mom's MB SLK32 AMG last week. There's no place to put the jack centered under the front (no, I don't have a hoist in my garage ), so I figured I'd have to do one side at a time. I was able to get both sides off the ground by jacking one side of the car up. Placed it on the inboard mount of the LCA, and yes, one side was higher than the other, but it puts your 'theory' into use.
| "One often finds the road to his destiny on the path he chooses to avoid it." - Oogway |
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BBChevro
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07-20-12 03:39 AM - Post#2250160
In response to nicke
There's a lot of good advise & information to ponder in this thread.
Earlier in the thread you asked "Can you speak a little more to the negative affects of sway bars?"
Not really a negative, just some more information to ponder - The "balance of adhesion" (do you like that term? - I just made it up  ) will change depending on the sizes of sway bars front & rear - the larger the front bar (in comparison to the rear one), the more understeer you'll get & likewise, as you stiffen up the rear it will create more oversteer.
Powerful, rear-drive cars (such as ours) have a natural tendency to be a bit "tail-happy", which would be why you don't generally see cars with a rear sway bar & nothing on the front - & when there's a bar at both ends the front will be larger.
Like I said, it's not a negative (I'm a fan of decent sway bars) - it's just some more points to ponder.
One more thing Nick, I'm going to do a bit of "cross threading" here (no, I didn't make that one up, just using it in a different context)...
Your other hot thread in this forum regarding a friendly grudge match - don't stiffen up your front suspension until after that event (no point in giving up any advantage). 
Mark
Mark
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ss3964spd
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3016
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07-20-12 08:38 AM - Post#2250229
In response to BBChevro
Yeah, almost no negative effect from running sway bars on the street. They do add weight of course. While going straight they are just along for the ride. When cornering, or when only one side hits a bump, dip, etc, a sway bar effectively adds more spring rate to that side for the duration of the event.
Bar sizing, diameter, is important as mentioned for proper balance. The front of the car is heavier than the back so, just as the front springs are stiffer than the back, the front bar will also be stiffer. For reference, the F41 package used a 15/16" front bar, and a 7/8" rear bar - the rear just slightly smaller than the front.
The info about beefing up the rear control arms is true. They have to be reinforced to deal with the added stress that the sway bar will impart to them. The assembly manual shows what bits need to be added to the stock B body CA's for a factory style bar.
As far as shock's go, discussing the voodoo that goes into shock size and valving would be pages!
Dan
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent. My ability to access it is not.
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 590
Age: 29
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Reg: 01-06-12
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07-20-12 10:47 AM - Post#2250264
In response to ss3964spd
Great info and advise. Thank you guys!
-Nick
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