maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-16-12 06:47 PM - Post#2248905
So after a short delay I picked up my heads from the shop today and grabbed some initial pics to document the build. I always love getting a new block back from the shop, so shiny and new! 
The block is a 3782870 casting, pad is stamped F0823HCR and is in great shape. It was bored .020 over. The crank is a steel forged 4577 small journal, rods and mains ground .010 under.
The heads are a set of 461 casting double-hump heads with 1.94/1.5 valves. I had them kick the exhaust up to 1.6 and they dropped in a set of SPI HP springs, did a 3angle and did some minor port/polish on the valve side of the chambers to improve flow.
The plan will be to install a good set of stamped roller-tipped rockers. Have yet to decide on a cam setup, so that decision will have to be made soon.
The double-hump used to actually mean something... =) I know there are better heads out there now, but this is what I had. I'm trying to get it running as inexpensively as possible while still doing things right. Since I had a good matched set of items, I'm running with what I have.
My plan this week is get the block and heads cleaned/masked/painted. I'm going with a Duplicolor High-Heat Ceramic in Cast Iron color. I've never been a huge fan of Chevy Orange. Blasphemy, I know. 
Next up is Rods/Pistons and a cam selection.
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65iceblue
Member
Posts: 42
Loc: Georgia
Reg: 10-07-06
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07-16-12 07:03 PM - Post#2248908
In response to maddjeff
Keep these pics coming Jeff ... GOOD stuff.
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 SS_in_Seattle
"4th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 1397
Reg: 05-08-03
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07-16-12 08:10 PM - Post#2248932
In response to maddjeff
Jeff,
I'm really impressed with your pictures & descriptions... I happen to be a big fan of the 327, and yours is clean & beautiful. You seem to have everything going for you... same-ish age as me (i've got 2 years on you)... you live in Washington... Chevy lover / Caprice owner. And then...
My plan this week is get the block and heads cleaned/masked/painted. I'm going with a Duplicolor High-Heat Ceramic in Cast Iron color. I've never been a huge fan of Chevy Orange. Blasphemy, I know.
For a second there, I thought you said you don't like hugger orange... looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue
Greg
1965 Impala SS L78
1966 Impala SS Convertible
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 578
Age: 29
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Reg: 01-06-12
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07-16-12 08:16 PM - Post#2248934
In response to SS_in_Seattle
Awesome pics and description Jeff! Our builds are very similar (327, 461 heads, and newly rebuilt!)
Let us know what cam you decide on! Keep the pics coming too!
-Nick
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slammed1
Contributor
Posts: 669
Age: 42
Loc: Ark
Reg: 03-28-12
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07-16-12 08:27 PM - Post#2248937
In response to nicke
I love 327's myself and am a big fan and have been for a while.I loved walking into the machine shop and asking which crank was mine while looking at this glistening crank in amoung all the dull drab ones and he said thats yours right there your staring at. I had no idea that the forged steel cranks looked that good after hot tanking than the cast ones.
I built mine from a 1966 275hp Caprice,that was all standard prior to being built.I found a set of .030 forged .250 domed pistons for 11.1 compression. I found a .558 lift 332 duration solid lifter cam and did a ton of machine work on the heads. I used a 750 DP carb on a Holley Strip Dom intake.I could turn that engine 8500 all day long and was using a 4.88 gear and 4500 8" stall in a 2900lb Nova.
This engine is no longer mine but is on a run stand that does header testing/muffler testing at a local Custom Header Builders Shop. I wished I could have it back bad. 
They are great engines and can be built great.yes theres more options out there that are better but for old school ooommph theres not much that can beat a tried and true 327. 
Keep up the pictures and the great work,will be following it along.Please paint the block and heads orange though please!!
Side Note,as most of you know I am a fan of SLEEPERS,and when I built my 327 I also built a 408 (.040 400 sb)for my street 67 Impala and used a set of double humps and flat tops for 11.1 comp also.The kicker is that I took both heads on only one end of each head I took a dremel tool and some clever peening to make a set of double humps look like a set of Power Pack heads. The opposite ends could still be seen had double humps but the side facing the frt of the engine had the modified design,caught a lot of guys off guard. Those heads made their way onto a guys circle track guys Bomber. 
Edited by slammed1 on 07-16-12 08:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-16-12 09:23 PM - Post#2248953
In response to slammed1
Glad to see there are other 327 lovers out there. I've always been a huge fan of the engine, and in a sea of 383's out there I kind of like being a little different. I know some think it's a small motor to get a full-size chevy moving down the road, but it's always done well for me.
I hope I don't overdo it with the pics. I'm a very visual person (as my wife can attest to...  ) and really enjoy wading through everyone build pics so I thought I would throw out a few of my own.
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-16-12 09:30 PM - Post#2248956
In response to SS_in_Seattle
Jeff,
I'm really impressed with your pictures & descriptions... I happen to be a big fan of the 327, and yours is clean & beautiful. You seem to have everything going for you... same-ish age as me (i've got 2 years on you)... you live in Washington... Chevy lover / Caprice owner.
Dude, we are going to have to get together and swap notes!
For a second there, I thought you said you don't like hugger orange... looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue
Well, let's just say it was not my first choice and leave it at that. 
Yes I'm serious, and don't call me Shirley... 
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-16-12 09:32 PM - Post#2248957
In response to nicke
Awesome pics and description Jeff! Our builds are very similar (327, 461 heads, and newly rebuilt!)
Let us know what cam you decide on! Keep the pics coming too!
-Nick
Next time I get up to Spokane I want to get a good look at your car. Make the trip up to the mother-in-law's worthwhile... 
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 578
Age: 29
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Reg: 01-06-12
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07-16-12 09:38 PM - Post#2248958
In response to maddjeff
Awesome pics and description Jeff! Our builds are very similar (327, 461 heads, and newly rebuilt!)
Let us know what cam you decide on! Keep the pics coming too!
-Nick
Next time I get up to Spokane I want to get a good look at your car. Make the trip up to the mother-in-law's worthwhile...
Haha, same goes for when I'm visiting the mother-in-law in Vancouver! Maybe I'll even have my quarter panel on and will be driving mine!
-Nick
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-16-12 09:52 PM - Post#2248960
In response to maddjeff
Realized I didn't post a pic of the head faces:
Not sure how they got 2.02's in these heads, those 1.94's are right to the edge as it is.
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 427SS65
"9th Year" Platinum Supporting Member & Moderator
Posts: 12261
Age: 67
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Reg: 12-11-03
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07-16-12 09:56 PM - Post#2248961
In response to nicke
I used to drag my original 65SS which had a 327/300, M20 and an open 3.56 axle. This was back in 1966 when I was in Georgia and South Carolina.
Some of those pictures are on my Flickr site. The car would run high 13's low 14's all the time. I had replaced the original iron manifold with an Edelbrock and a dual pumper Holley, so the car had to run E/MP. On a good day, when no 55's showed up, I could usually get a trophy!
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-16-12 10:12 PM - Post#2248967
In response to 427SS65
Some of those pictures are on my Flickr site. The car would run high 13's low 14's all the time. I had replaced the original iron manifold with an Edelbrock and a dual pumper Holley, so the car had to run E/MP. On a good day, when no 55's showed up, I could usually get a trophy!
Just went through your Flickr, what a great bunch of pics!
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427SS65
"9th Year" Platinum Supporting Member & Moderator
Posts: 12261
Age: 67
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Reg: 12-11-03
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07-17-12 06:08 AM - Post#2249014
In response to maddjeff
Thanks, Jeff. Did you see the ones of my original 65?
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-17-12 10:38 AM - Post#2249097
In response to 427SS65
Yes, and it was sweet.  Back in 1966 my parents bought a brand-new '66 Caprice, 396 with a TH400, center console, buckets, the works. It was a sweet car.
Funny story, not long after they got it they also got me. The were running down the Columbia Gorge to Portland on I84 to visit my grandparents, and at some point had me in a baby carrier on the console between the buckets. At full highway speeds the baby carrier slid forward and jammmed the shifter from drive to park. Suffice it to say, a lot of rubber got left on the pavement but dad kept it in control and slid to a stop on the shoulder without an accident.
After they got themselves calmed down and made sure everyone was ok, dad was sure the tranny had to be toast. Of course it had killed the motor as well. Dad checked everything out, then attempted to start it. The old girl fired right up. He dropped it into Drive and she ran flawlessly the rest of the way. Other than some flat spots on the tires, it had no damage to the tranny or motor. They ran it for a few more years before selling it, and never had any problems at all.
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 578
Age: 29
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Reg: 01-06-12
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07-17-12 10:48 AM - Post#2249098
In response to maddjeff
Haha, that is a great story!
Same thing happened to me in my 65 SS with my old powerglide. I was in high school, and driving into town with my brother, going 60mph. He had his cell phone sitting on my center console. Phone rings and he aggressively reached down to grab it and hits my shifter and knocks it into reverse!
Wheels lock up and we start sliding. Noise from tranny sounds like an active battle field. Without skipping a beat, I quickly pull it back into drive, correct the steering and put her back in the lane.
He answers the phone and starts casually talking, and sheepishly looks over at me, with a slight grin, shaking my head.
Drove that combo for another 10 years, and not so much as a hiccup out of the tranny.
-Nick
Edited by nicke on 07-17-12 10:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SS_in_Seattle
"4th Year" Platinum Supporting Member
Posts: 1397
Reg: 05-08-03
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07-17-12 03:02 PM - Post#2249180
In response to nicke
Jeff & Nick,
If something like that ever happened to me, I'd just start screaming like Chris Farley & David Spade did when the deer came to life in the back seat of their car, in the movie Tommy Boy... my hat's off to Nick & Jeff's Dad
As for the bullet-proofness of a good Chevy, my neighbor gave me this seriously beat '67 C10 with a straight 6 when he retired, and moved back to Mississippi. You could never tell when the old beast would run low on (or out of) oil & water... it usually happened on the freeway, en route to work. I always kept a couple gallons of water and a gallon of 'recycled' oil behind the seat, and when she was steaming profusely, or knocking out of control, I'd just hop out, add the depleted liquid [or liquids], start her up and head on my way.
That old truck had 200 thousand + miles on her when I traded her for a new wire welder, and until I lost contact with the guy who get her, she continued to run faithfully.
Greg
1965 Impala SS L78
1966 Impala SS Convertible
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slammed1
Contributor
Posts: 669
Age: 42
Loc: Ark
Reg: 03-28-12
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07-17-12 06:56 PM - Post#2249255
In response to SS_in_Seattle
Please please over doit on pictures. I cant say enough about seeing pictures whether of a build,and issue,or just plain outside after a wash job clean pics.
Please show us more. Also tell us more. What pistons are you planning? Dished for lower compression and fuel or flat tops for better compression and performance? What cam? I like that you have the 64 cc heads and opened up the exhaust for better flow,that keeps torque numbers up which is good for a big car.
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-17-12 07:40 PM - Post#2249269
In response to slammed1
Pistons will be Speed Pro Hypereutectic flat-tops w/pressed pins:
http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetai...
I had a good matched set of stock forged rods, but decided that was something I didn't want to reuse. Ended up going with a set of Scat Pro Stock 4340 I-Beam rods.
Not sure on the cam yet. I actually have a 30/30 cam that was installed when I first built the motor, but they've come a long way in the past 20 years with cam designs, so I'm not sure what I'm doing there yet. At this point I just know I'm going with roller lifters and stamped roller-tip rockers. I like the lope of a 30/30, but I want it well behaved as a cruiser and be able to run a power booster when I swap the front drums out eventually.
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slammed1
Contributor
Posts: 669
Age: 42
Loc: Ark
Reg: 03-28-12
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07-17-12 07:53 PM - Post#2249278
In response to maddjeff
So your staying around 10.1 roughly.I am with you on using a Roller cam,not that a hyd flat tappet is bad but roller cams just produce much better all over power.
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427SS65
"9th Year" Platinum Supporting Member & Moderator
Posts: 12261
Age: 67
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Reg: 12-11-03
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07-17-12 08:36 PM - Post#2249290
In response to maddjeff
Are you going to do all the piston and rod balancing, or job that out? The next question is are you using reconditioned rods or going new?
I'll try to hold it to two questions per post!
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-17-12 09:45 PM - Post#2249310
In response to 427SS65
Are you going to do all the piston and rod balancing, or job that out?
I'm going to take the rotating assembly back in to my machine shop to do the balance. These guys are old-school but sure know their stuff.
The next question is are you using reconditioned rods or going new?
Like I mentioned above, I actually had a good set of stock forged rods, but felt like the new technology rods were a no-brainer to swap out. For just a little more than the cost to have these rods checked and worked on I can get a set of Scat rods that will outperform them strength-wise, and we all know the rods failing are one of the big things in these high rpm 327's.
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-17-12 09:47 PM - Post#2249312
In response to slammed1
So your staying around 10.1 roughly.I am with you on using a Roller cam,not that a hyd flat tappet is bad but roller cams just produce much better all over power.
Yeah, if my memory serves me I think between the 64cc chambers and 327 .20 over works out around 9.75 or so. Should let me run 93 octane without too much trouble while still having some power.
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 Johnny468
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 565
Loc: Richmond, Va.
Reg: 10-24-08
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07-18-12 07:09 AM - Post#2249395
In response to maddjeff
I think you made a wise move upgrading to Scat rods. My experience with 40 year old factory rods has been marginal at best. Personally I would never use factory rods on anything but a bone-stock rebuild. My old 327 build had Scat rods with a factory forged small journal crank and it gave me many years of trouble free service.
Johnny
1965 Impala SS
505/4-speed/4.30
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ImpBiscuit
Senior Member
Posts: 1403
Loc: Louisiana
Reg: 02-08-03
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07-18-12 08:30 AM - Post#2249444
In response to maddjeff
If you relieve the combustion chambers and the piston’s sharp edges it will help with detonation. The sharp edges create hotspots and cause pre-ignition. I do this on all engines I build. Just a tip I learned from an Old NHRA Stock engine builder when he was scrubbing piston with Scotch-Bright pad. He and his son ran Stock and Super Stock. Son now Builds his on engines and runs in Pro Stock.
John
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 50hotrod
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 365
Age: 56
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
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07-18-12 09:05 AM - Post#2249463
In response to Johnny468
You will need a good ignition system. Something fully adjustable with today's gas.
I built basically the same engine you are building.
461 heads .040+ single relief H660CP pistons 12/18 Duntov cam because of the auto trans. I have a solid 10:1 compression. She.."talks".. to me all the time but runs like a raped ape on the big end.
Now a modern roller cam will correct the detonation problem but you need to have a cam specially ground for the 3.25 stroke 327. Most all retro-roller small block cams today are ground to fit 262-400 small blocks with a power range to about 5500-6000 rpm's. The 327 doesn't start to produce any real power until after 4000 rpm. So be very selective in this area.
You will need at least these for your 461 heads or you will pull a stud http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rocker-Arm-Studs- sb-Chevy-...
Or go with conventional screw in studs and guide plates. Good Luck.
Well, you know what's wrong with the world today
People done gone and put their Bible's away
They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land
"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels
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 ss3964spd
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3014
Loc: Fairfax, Va
Reg: 12-21-00
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07-18-12 09:40 AM - Post#2249476
In response to 50hotrod
I'd be very careful with the compression.
My 489 is right around 9.7 and I can only run about 15 initial and 34 or so total - and even then it will ping under certain conditions. I use octane booster instead of taking more timing out of it. The engine really wants more timing.
Cam selection will be very important. you'll need something to bleed off some dynamic compression but yet not kill the bottom end. An engine that doesn't make any power below 4k is not very street friendly (IMO). Your cooling system will need to be up to snuff.
The ignition system is easy; a simple HEI is more than sufficient, properly curved. Everything I've read says that roller tipped rockers add nothing in the way of HP.
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent. My ability to access it is not.
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maddjeff
Forum Newbie
Posts: 79
Age: 46
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 07-07-12
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07-18-12 10:00 AM - Post#2249486
In response to ss3964spd
Cam selection will be very important. you'll need something to bleed off some dynamic compression but yet not kill the bottom end. An engine that doesn't make any power below 4k is not very street friendly (IMO). Your cooling system will need to be up to snuff.
The ignition system is easy; a simple HEI is more than sufficient, properly curved. Everything I've read says that roller tipped rockers add nothing in the way of HP.
Agreed on the cam selection, it will make or break this build. That's why I haven't got it figured out yet. We all know these are high-rev motors, but I'm also realistic about how this car is going to be driven. When it boils down, I'm building a street cruiser that will be driven in the summer on city streets, with some freeway driving to car shows in the area, and maybe an occasional trip to PIR for some 1/4 mile runs when I'm in the mood. It's not going to get the chance to wind to 6000rpms a lot, so I need to build for low-end as much as possible.
Now that said, I want to be able to lay some tire when I feel like it. So I'm trying to get caught back up on all the new cam tech that has happened in the past 15 years or so.
I will be going HEI, and while I have the existing rad, the cooling system will be getting an upgrade when the build happens as well.
As for roller-tip rockers adding HP, I'm doing it strictly for the lower wear and cooler running. I want this motor to last. I've heard really good things about this set of roller rockers and am seriously considering them:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-CHEVY-STAINLE SS-SELF-A...
I know, ebay parts? But these guys seems to have a good rep with the builders online and I've read nothing but good things about the parts, and for not much more than stamped roller-tip I think they may be worth a shot. Still mulling it over however.
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nicke
Contributor
Posts: 578
Age: 29
Loc: Spokane, Washington
Reg: 01-06-12
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07-18-12 10:09 AM - Post#2249490
In response to ss3964spd
My 327 Build was a .40 over build with a really mild 206/214 duration cam from comp (here) that gets its power off idle, as I wanted good usable power, and in all honesty, 99% of my driving is done under 4000k rpms. I have 9.5-1 compression, and have my timing set at 20 initial, 38 total, coming in at 25-2700rps, and it has really great manners (Vacuum advance is connected to manifold vacuum and is 12 total). I run 93 octane and have no issues at all.
Now that I swapped from a powerglide and 3.07 gear to 200-4r and 3.73 gears, I would have chosen a different cam, but it is still really nice. I also got all the comp stuff for the 461 heads, and did screw in studs and guide plates.
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50hotrod
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 365
Age: 56
Loc: Wisconsin
Reg: 07-25-11
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07-18-12 11:40 AM - Post#2249538
In response to nicke
Maddjeff Quote;
"It's not going to get the chance to wind to 6000rpms a lot, so I need to build for low-end as much as possible"...........
Don't kid yourself. You will be hitting 6000rpms on a regular basis with ease and not even realize it. Just the nature of the beast. These mouse motors love it. You will see.
You can not run self alining rockers on 461 heads without drilling out the push rod holes larger. The 461 heads use the push rod holes as guides.
You can not run self alining rockers with guide plates installed. One or the other not both.
Well, you know what's wrong with the world today
People done gone and put their Bible's away
They're living by the law of the jungle not the law of the land
"Simple Man" By Charlie Daniels
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Edited by bouncer on 07-18-12 12:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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ss3964spd
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3014
Loc: Fairfax, Va
Reg: 12-21-00
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07-18-12 11:42 AM - Post#2249539
In response to nicke
Sounds like you have a good handle on it Jeff.
Regarding the roller tip rockers: Almost all the wear and heat with a stamped rocker is generated at the ball/socket, very little at the valve tip. I've even read that the roller tip does just as much sliding across the valve tip as it does actually rolling. Regardless, if you're doing a roller cam might as well get the full benefit of going with full roller rockers too. I like steel body , not aluminum, rockers (have seen lots of pictures of failed aluminum but never steel) for the street. Those e-bay rockers? I dunno if I'd take that risk.
I've never been a fan of how an HEI looks - especially since I was shooting for a stock-ish look. I installed a Pertronix Ignitor III system with their matching bazillion volt coil. So far, so good, and it has a built in rev limiter. Which DOES work. Lots of simple but effective ignition options though.
Ditto what John said above about taking the sharp edges off.
Dan
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent. My ability to access it is not.
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