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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: Starter Drive not engaging flywheel        (Topic#283980)
Giese 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 4

Reg: 07-12-12
07-12-12 05:25 AM - Post#2247312    

Working on a 52 chevy deluxe, 216ci. 72K miles, all original. About 50% of the time the starter drive hits the front of the flywheel and does not engage. I can turn the flywheel, and then it engages. Does not seem to matter where on the flywheel, I get the same 50/50 probability of engaging.

Background:
Car has been in the family for 40 years, but became mine less than a year ago. This starter issue has existed the entire time.

Starter itself works fine. It is a rebuilt starter that has been on for decades. New solenoid. New starter drive. New battery. All connections have been cleaned. I used a grinder to take the rough wear off of each tooth on the flywheel. I've repositioned the starter on the mounting bolts as much as possible, but there isn't much play available. I can't be certain that it is the correct starter, but it appears correct.

Very frustrated and stumped at this point. Ideas??

 
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2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14625

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
07-12-12 05:29 AM - Post#2247314    
    In response to Giese

The hint as to the problem is "new solenoid" check out the shop manual on adjusting the solenoid. It can be moved sligthly front to rear and properly set may be the end of your problem.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
Giese 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 4

Reg: 07-12-12
07-12-12 05:55 AM - Post#2247327    
    In response to 2blu52

Thanks, this could be a factor. When I put on the new solenoid, the mounting bolts were at the front of one set of holes and the back of the other set of holes so there wasn't any adjustment available. I used a file to enlarge the holes so tha I could move the solenoid back on the starter which seemed to be what was needed. I have not tried moving it forward. Based on the service manual, the starter drive would be traveling too far into the flywheel. But I'm still not sure how this prevent it from engaging part of the time?

 
Giese 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 4

Reg: 07-12-12
07-12-12 11:37 AM - Post#2247441    
    In response to Giese

Any more ideas out there? I'm stuck!


 
lobucrod 
Contributor
Posts: 395
lobucrod
Age: 62
Loc: Springtown Texas
Reg: 10-01-07
07-12-12 01:18 PM - Post#2247476    
    In response to Giese

I'd pull the starter off and energize the solenoid and see how far the starter drive moves. It should go right up against the nose cone. Be easy to adjust with it off too.
'38 Chevy Coupe
'50 Sedan Delivery
'62 Buick Electra
2000 Harley Heritage Classic
Buick Nailhead powered garden tractor



 
Giese 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 4

Reg: 07-12-12
07-14-12 03:59 AM - Post#2248028    
    In response to lobucrod

The starter drive does move to the back of the bell. When the starter drive meshes with the teeth of the flywheel, the depth is fine. The problem is that 50% of the time the drive is being stopped at the front of the flywheel.

 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14625

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
07-14-12 05:34 AM - Post#2248045    
    In response to Giese

I have no idea that it was ever done but could there be a shim missing from where the starter attaches to the bell housing. Almost sounds as if the starter needs to find a worn area in the fly wheel in order to line up. could it be caused by an unlevel situation with the mate up between bell housing and starter mount?
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
schudaddie 
Senior Member
Posts: 245
schudaddie
Loc: SW, MI
Reg: 10-31-01
07-14-12 07:54 AM - Post#2248091    
    In response to Giese

I had the same issue with my car and discovered that some one had replaced one of the small wires that runs up to the starter button with a wire that was too lightweight. I checked the service manual and found it needed to be a 14ga wire (I think). I replaced it with a proper sized wire and it hasn't missed a beat since. You might want to check all your connections (clean & tight)and verify the wires are correct. These 6v cars can be very fussy about these issues.
good luck, bill

 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-02-12 06:02 AM - Post#2254825    
    In response to schudaddie

So, I'm going trough the same problem, so I read this and went looking on the manual... After looking at the solenoid setup I gave a look to the engine bay and "surprise" I have a different starter and seems that there is no way to move the solenoid...
Car is a '53 210, and when ai bought it there was a '54 engine... Do they put a different starter in '54 or one of the old owners messed it up adapting a new one, did the same when I bought the car 2 years ago, so I don't know if it worked before I got it...
The starter is shimmed at the bellhousing, maybe I could give a try removing the shims...

 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14625

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
08-02-12 07:45 AM - Post#2254865    
    In response to cicciobilly

try removing shims but go easy and do it one at a time.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
dads54 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 88
dads54
Reg: 05-28-12
08-02-12 09:28 AM - Post#2254908    
    In response to 2blu52

I had exactly the same problem. It would do it 3-4 times out of 10. I adjusted the solenoid all the way toward the front of the car (more engagement) and now it does it less. Probably 1-2 times out of 10.

 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-02-12 02:16 PM - Post#2255024    
    In response to dads54

So, my starter is a different one that bolts in, maybe something out of a different year 235... The solenoid is not adjustable, tomorrow I'll try to post a pic, can someone please tell me the number of theets on a '53/54 flywheel and starter? Will do some calls to check if I can find a right one in Italy 'cause shipping to Italy would cost more than the right starter itself...
1953 Chevy 210


 
dads54 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 88
dads54
Reg: 05-28-12
08-02-12 03:40 PM - Post#2255050    
    In response to cicciobilly

After closely looking at mine, it looks to me like the teeth on the starter gear aren't tapered enough to allow it to engage the flywheel if you know what I mean. It seems that the face of the starter teeth are hitting the flywheel teeth unless the alignment is just right.

 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-03-12 02:43 AM - Post#2255227    
    In response to dads54

ok... I'm trying to look trough this problem...
if I'm not wrong the original starter should be this one:
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?Parta~Show...

but I have this one:
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?Parta~Show...

anyone knows if the one I have is adjustable?
the starter himself spins, today I'll take it out and try to check with jumper wires if the solenoid works... if not I'll try to change the solenoid...
1953 Chevy 210


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-03-12 02:45 AM - Post#2255228    
    In response to cicciobilly

looking at the starter drive I have one with more teeths that this one

starter drive

could this be a problem?
1953 Chevy 210


 
kensluys 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 862

Loc: Bellingham, WA, USA
Reg: 04-18-01
08-03-12 09:59 AM - Post#2255322    
    In response to cicciobilly

First of all, I'm not an expert, so take everything I write with a grain of skepticism.

That starter that you have looks to be the 12V type, used (I think) from 1957 up (or maybe 1958). The 12V starters for 1955 and 1956 had the adjustable linkages, and look a lot like the 6V starters. The 12V systems used 168-tooth ring gears. The original type starter would be a 6 volt, used with a 139-tooth ring gear.

So I guess it depends on what flywheel and ring gear you have, as to whether or not the starter drive gear will mesh. You said that you had a 1954 engine in it now. If it has the 6 volt type ring gear it wouldn't mesh well with the 12 volt starter drive gear.

1951 Bel Air - January build date.


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-03-12 10:22 AM - Post#2255332    
    In response to kensluys

according to "the filling station" the one I have is a '49 to '54 starter...

they show different ones for later models...

in one hour I'll be under the car in the shop looking to check how many teeths my starter and flywheel ring gear have...

and I'll try to measure them too...
1953 Chevy 210


 
kensluys 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 862

Loc: Bellingham, WA, USA
Reg: 04-18-01
08-03-12 11:21 AM - Post#2255358    
    In response to cicciobilly

This might be of use, too. It was printed in Hemmings Motor News, and lists flywheels used by Chevrolet in different applications. Includes the casting numbers for the flywheels.


The note that I made that says "Used this flywheel type" was for myself. That's the one that I used with my engine.



Attachment: Flywheels_in_GM_vehicles_a.jpg (163.14 KB) 42 View(s)

1951 Bel Air - January build date.


 
kensluys 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 862

Loc: Bellingham, WA, USA
Reg: 04-18-01
08-03-12 01:43 PM - Post#2255401    
    In response to cicciobilly

Regarding the number of teeth on the starter drive, I just looked at a few starters that I have here, and they ALL have 9 teeth.

That includes a 1951 6 volt from a 216 engine, a 1951 from a 235 engine (so it was a powerglide car), two 1955 12 volt from 235's and a 12 volt from a 1958 - 1962 235. The 1951's and the 1955's have the open shift levers, and the 1958-62 has the enclosed shift lever, of the type shown here:

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/electrical/58...

It sounds like the one you have has the enclosed shift lever, too.

Looking at the 1929 - 1957 Master Parts manual, it looks like there is some difference in the drive assemblies between the earlier 6 volt drive assemblies and the later 12 volt assemblies, since they have different part numbers. But I can't see an obvious difference in the pinions, and they all have 9 teeth.

Can someone else chime in on this?
1951 Bel Air - January build date.


 
Rust chips 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 673
Rust  chips
Loc: DFW Texas
Reg: 02-24-05
08-03-12 02:36 PM - Post#2255420    
    In response to kensluys

Even though they all have 9 teeth, is there a differnce in the diameter of the gear? I don't know I'm just wondering out loud.
Cleon
1928 Chevy Coupe
1942 Chevy Sport coupe
1949 Chevy Sport coupe
1954 Chevy Bel Air HTP
1955 Chevy Bel Air HTP
1970 El Camino
1971 Monte Carlo


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-03-12 03:12 PM - Post#2255427    
    In response to Rust chips

http://www.chevsofthe40s.com/detail/5961/Chevrolet ...

looking at this page on chevyofthe40s I can understand that there are two different sizes for the starter gear... 1.140" or 0.970"...

I still need to measure mine, but earlier today I've got the chance to look at it from under the car with a friend starting it, it's too small for sure...

and yes kensluys, mine is enclosed...
I know that the last owner of the car bought most of the parts from the filling station, and checking from their website they list it as a 49-54...

so yes, I was able to start the car with it, and yes, the flywheel is a little ruined, but seems not a big thing... tomorrow I'll check for the numbers on the flywheel to understand if it's the correct one, and try to look at the number of teeths and I'll order the right starter asap

I saw that national chevy association has only the solenoid, and chevsofthe40s has both of them, can you suggest me other vendors?

thank you very much for your help!
Marco
1953 Chevy 210


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-04-12 02:53 AM - Post#2255542    
    In response to cicciobilly

so, my starter gear is 1.140 so looks right for a 139 teeth flywheel...

part number on the flywheel is hard to read, but looks like a 838754 followed by a 777, and there is also a GM38, so at least it should be a GM part, but this number is completely different from the ones listed in the article posted on this topic...

I just came out from under the car counting 140 theets, I'll drink some water 'cause it's very hot here right now and crawl under the car again to see if I counted one two times so it's a 139 or if I have a misterious flywheel...

wish me luck!
1953 Chevy 210


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-04-12 07:44 AM - Post#2255590    
    In response to cicciobilly

so, the starter gear seems to be the right size one, and the flywheel gear has the right number of teeths...

I'm thinking about enlarging the starter mounting holes, so I can move the starter a little closer to the flywheel...
1953 Chevy 210


 
alltak 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 197
alltak
Loc: dallas texas
Reg: 10-04-04
08-04-12 08:42 AM - Post#2255612    
    In response to cicciobilly

839754 is a 42-53 Has 6 holes for the clutch cover, stamped 2UC----from the parts book


Alltak


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-04-12 10:12 AM - Post#2255640    
    In response to alltak

thank you very much Altak! so a 6v starter should work...

can you guys suggest me where to buy it online?
thank you

Marco

1953 Chevy 210


 
schudaddie 
Senior Member
Posts: 245
schudaddie
Loc: SW, MI
Reg: 10-31-01
08-04-12 10:22 AM - Post#2255643    
    In response to schudaddie

  • schudaddie Said:
I had the same issue with my car and discovered that some one had replaced one of the small wires that runs up to the starter button with a wire that was too lightweight. I checked the service manual and found it needed to be a 14ga wire (I think). I replaced it with a proper sized wire and it hasn't missed a beat since. You might want to check all your connections (clean & tight)and verify the wires are correct. These 6v cars can be very fussy about these issues.

have you checked out your wire gage sizes? like I said before...."I replaced it with a proper sized wire and it hasn't missed a beat since."
later, bill
good luck, bill




 
alltak 
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 197
alltak
Loc: dallas texas
Reg: 10-04-04
08-04-12 06:25 PM - Post#2255777    
    In response to schudaddie

Never used them but starterpros.com has 6v starters.

Alltak


 
usmile4 
"7th Year Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 3748
usmile4
Age: 67
Loc: Naperville, Illinois
Reg: 08-12-05
08-04-12 09:06 PM - Post#2255843    
    In response to alltak

When I needed a new 6 v starter for my 49 I got it from NAPA. They had it right on the shelf.
Bill Gommel

49 chevy Styleline (Sold), 51 Styleline 2 dr Special, 235 (from a 61 truck) bored .060 over, Dual Carter/Webers, Fenton Headers, T5- 5 speed with a 56 rear end.


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-06-12 01:54 AM - Post#2256258    
    In response to schudaddie

hey Bill, 14 gauge is 2 millimiters, mine is bigger, so this shouldn't be the problem...

thanks
Ciccio
1953 Chevy 210


 
cicciobilly 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 61
cicciobilly
Age: 28
Loc: italy
Reg: 08-17-10
08-06-12 08:02 AM - Post#2256330    
    In response to alltak

Just wrote an email to starterpros to check if they ship to Italy (on the website they have only domestic horders)

thank you guys

1953 Chevy 210


 
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