jaxbeachdawg
Senior Member
Posts: 476
Age: 56
Loc: Hilliard Florida
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 06-19-12 06:31 PM - Post#2239275
I have been using pennzoil 10w30 for over 9 years on my 283 with no problems,is it really necessary to change because of the less zinc added to oil these days,I hate to change oil brands after all this time
| 1957 Chevrolet 4 Door Bel Air Sedan,283 Power Pack,Powerglide,Power Brakes and Steering,81,000 Documented Miles,Proudly Driven In Loving Memory Of My Son Cory(1983-2000) |
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arnieg141
Dedicated Enthusiast
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06-20-12 06:26 AM - Post#2239389
In response to jaxbeachdawg
TODAYS OILS WORK FINE IN OLDER CARS no need to worry about zink
| GET ER DONE .. AS I GET OLDER I LIKE FAST CARS I CAN STILL DRIVE. AND VERY SLOW WOMEN I CAN CATCH while still able..arnie garrison |
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 nstlga
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Loc: Colorado
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06-20-12 07:52 AM - Post#2239422
In response to arnieg141
Just read an interesting article that says current oil choice depends on whether or not the engine has been rebuilt or is truly original, and how much you drive it these days. These things coupled with frequency of change can all dictate what you need to do additive wise, if anything to raise the zinc level.
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beejay
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-20-12 01:20 PM - Post#2239509
In response to nstlga
If valve seats have been ground, then you need ZDDP until they harden. On old engines and not have valve seats ground, no.
Bruce
'56 4-door BelAir, 350, Holley 600, Eddie intake, TKO 600, CPP P/S and A arms, Sierra Gold & Adobe Beige
2010 VW Jetta S/W, 2.5, 5-cyl,6-spd auto.
'87 Elkie, 350 with 700r4 tranny B&M floor shift
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 62chevy427
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-20-12 04:18 PM - Post#2239575
In response to jaxbeachdawg
with the stock cam todays oil is o.k. when you have a cam with an agressive profile,zink additive becomes more of a necessity to preserve the lobes and lifters.i put some in all of my old engines every oil change.
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 57tim
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2474
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
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06-20-12 05:41 PM - Post#2239610
In response to beejay
Beejay, Thats lead not zddp. Zddp is for flat tappet cams.
Roller lifters don't need zddp so thats why it's not in modern oil.
Keep using your new oil in a flat tappet cam engine and you will need a new cam eventually.
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WSSmolik
Super Senior Member
Posts: 4896
Loc: PA
Reg: 01-25-01
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06-20-12 06:50 PM - Post#2239633
In response to 57tim
From what I understand, oil is forced-away from the cam lobe-lifter interface, causing wear. The ZDDP compound in oil "plates" this high-pressure surface to greatly reduce wear. The cam lobe-lifter contact area is infinitesimally small, so it is critical that this area receives the proper lubrication. Newer technology uses rollers in contact areas such as this, which gives the contact areas a full bearing surface.
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Rick_L
Honored Member
Posts: 24718
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
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06-20-12 07:07 PM - Post#2239641
In response to beejay
"If valve seats have been ground, then you need ZDDP until they harden."
Valve seats don't self harden.
And the oil used does not affect valve seats. If you have oil on them, your engine is worn out and it's too late.
The issue with ZDDP is with camshaft/lifter wear.
My opinion is that if you have a stock engine that's been running for some miles, you don't need to panic or change to a different oil. Might be different if you had a performance camshaft and increased valve spring force. Certainly different if you are going to rebuild in the future, or modify your valve train.
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1861
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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06-21-12 05:20 AM - Post#2239738
In response to beejay
What does zinc in the oil have to do with the valve seats? Oil never touches the valve seat. You're talking about lead in the gas. Modern oil is not good for a flat tappet engine without ZDDP additive.
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ThumperNZ
Contributor
Posts: 504
Loc: New Plymouth, New Zealand
Reg: 07-08-07
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06-21-12 02:52 PM - Post#2239865
In response to models916
The ZDDP in oil is required by the lifters to get a scuff protection to enable the cam profile (which is slightly sloped across the lobe) to rotate the lifters (the lifter is slightly rounded on the face).
This enables the cam profile/lifter interface to always be different so that a wear pattern is minimised. The function of the ZDDP is to help with this action, the modern oils are "more slippery", so there is a danger that the lifter may not rotate, and it could wear out in 5mins.
Shell Rotella 15W-40 used to have higher ZDDP when it was CI-4 spec but it has now been lessened to comply with the EPA requirements.
Would I use normal oil with the lessened ZDDP in a used engine?
NO, I see the results of this in my engine shop every week, which has led me to recommend to the average JOE, to go Roller cam, hydraulic or solid.
If the customer is a purist, or someone who will listen and use ZDDP, I have no problem with the flat tappet cams.
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57tim
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2474
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
Reg: 11-09-01
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06-24-12 02:48 PM - Post#2240841
In response to ThumperNZ
Thanks for that excellent explaination You should have highlighted the "who will listen". 
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Bad270
Contributor
Posts: 219
Loc: Weeki Wachee, Fl. 34607
Reg: 08-04-07
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06-27-12 09:25 AM - Post#2241904
In response to jaxbeachdawg
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&...
A bottle of this is good for 2 oil changes-you can get it at: www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1861
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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06-28-12 08:00 AM - Post#2242245
In response to Bad270
You can get Rislone ZDDP and most auto parts stores. Add it to what ever oil you want and forget about it! ZDDP is ZDDP
http://www.barsproducts.com/blog/the-straight-sco o...
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Bad270
Contributor
Posts: 219
Loc: Weeki Wachee, Fl. 34607
Reg: 08-04-07
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06-28-12 03:29 PM - Post#2242347
In response to models916
Sounds like a better way to go
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57tim
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2474
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
Reg: 11-09-01
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06-28-12 04:32 PM - Post#2242356
In response to Bad270
I think we beat this to death  Use whatever oil you want and then when the engine craps out rebuild it to not use ZDDP and your problems are solved.
Me, I am going to continue Valvoline VR-1. So what if it cost more. I use 5 quarts per year. $30 bucks and I don't worry if I have too much/too little/ will it wash off/ etc. 
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models916
Frequent Contributor
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Age: 62
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Reg: 05-28-10
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06-29-12 05:19 AM - Post#2242525
In response to 57tim
VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which means it has reduced levels of zinc. It is a racing oil for modern engines, not older flat tappet.
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57tim
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2474
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
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06-29-12 05:03 PM - Post#2242751
In response to models916
The Valvoline.com web site for VR-1 street racing oil says high high zinc/phosphorus for extreme wear protection including flat tappet applications.
I rest my case.
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models916
Frequent Contributor
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Age: 62
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Reg: 05-28-10
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06-30-12 11:08 AM - Post#2242967
In response to 57tim
What does High mean? .14/.13 as listed on there site is about half of what is in Lucas racing oil. I would not use a SN rated oil without an additive in an expensive collector car engine. API SN rated oil by law has to have reduced levels of ZDDP.
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57tim
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2474
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
Reg: 11-09-01
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06-30-12 03:15 PM - Post#2243036
In response to models916
Ok, I sent am email to VALVOLINE. Hopefully we can resolve this once and for all.
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Bad270
Contributor
Posts: 219
Loc: Weeki Wachee, Fl. 34607
Reg: 08-04-07
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06-30-12 06:39 PM - Post#2243105
In response to 57tim
This may be no help but I have a bottle of VR1 50W in front of me and it says "Ashless anti-wear additives and ZDDP provide ultimate wear protection". Just doesn't say how much ZDDP is in it.
Interesting discussion
Bud
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1861
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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07-01-12 07:04 AM - Post#2243245
In response to Bad270
I think the straight wt VR1 is rated different than the multi.
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Bad270
Contributor
Posts: 219
Loc: Weeki Wachee, Fl. 34607
Reg: 08-04-07
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07-01-12 07:18 AM - Post#2243252
In response to ThumperNZ
Thumper you nailed it!
http://www.aa1car.com/library/api_motor_oil _classi...
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57tim
"11th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2474
Loc: Cameron, Wi, USA
Reg: 11-09-01
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07-01-12 05:44 PM - Post#2243458
In response to Bad270
20-50 VR-1 has the same statement. We will see if they answer the email I sent Saturday.
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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07-03-12 12:29 PM - Post#2244063
In response to models916
VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which means it has reduced levels of zinc. It is a racing oil for modern engines, not older flat tappet.
Not correct. From Valvoline's website:
What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus.
Comments from Valvoline on http:/www.latemodelracer.com:
We see a lot of references to the API Service "SM" rating, being the main cause for catalytic converter damage. SM is basically just a gasoline rating. The S stands for Spark ignition, which refers to the ignition for gasoline type vehicles. When an oil has an SM rating, that just plainly means that the oil passed the specific API (American Petroleum Institute) test requirements to obtain this specification. It has nothing to do with catalytic converters. The rating that stands out on conventional motor oils, (Premium conventional, Durablend, & Synpower) is the GF-3 and GF-4 ratings. These are energy conserving ratings that are necessary because of the Environmental Protection Agency mandating federal standards to further reduce emissions, beginning with '05 vehicles. These are the ratings that make the oil safe for catalyst effectiveness, and these ratings are not found on the VR1 Racing Oils due the ZDDP additive content, not API Service "SM."
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
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Edited by MikeB on 07-03-12 12:53 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1861
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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07-03-12 02:26 PM - Post#2244090
In response to MikeB
Sounds like double talk. API site says S stands for SERVICE and C stands for COMMERCIAL. Doesn't say anything about ignition. Should probably ask if the VR1 is a blend of dyno and syn. Could be the ZDDP spec is only for the dyno part of the oil.
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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07-04-12 08:14 AM - Post#2244383
In response to models916
Both "S" and "P" are API service ratings. (Edit: I meant "S" and "C".)
"S" actually means "spark", as in spark ignition.
The "C" stands for "compression" as in compression ignition in a diesel engines.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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Edited by MikeB on 07-05-12 12:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1861
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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07-04-12 12:58 PM - Post#2244489
In response to MikeB
API site says S stands for SERVICE and C stands for COMMERCIAL. It's their site and their rating, they should be correct.
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Rick_L
Honored Member
Posts: 24718
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
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07-04-12 05:02 PM - Post#2244554
In response to models916
Do you have a link?
The stuff MikeB talks about has been around a long time.
My guess is somehow we've got apples and oranges. If both are right, they're not talking about the same thing. But I don't know for sure.
I have no reason to doubt the Valvoline information.
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1861
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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07-05-12 05:23 AM - Post#2244655
In response to Rick_L
Try this
http://www.api.org/certification-program s/engine-o...
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Rick_L
Honored Member
Posts: 24718
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
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07-05-12 11:45 AM - Post#2244752
In response to models916
I'm not sure I see a contradiction except possibly semantics.
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