lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-19-12 12:22 PM - Post#2239161
its a 62 , 283 car. it was manual steering, but i scored an original style power steering setup complete, off a running and driving car. this included, idler, draglink, pitman, gearbox, pump, brackets, hoses, crank pulley, everything complete ready to drop in. so i did, everything looks to be install correctly, put fluid in it, did the far left to far right turning of the steering wheel to get the air out the lines, it bubbled out plenty enough to make a mess. the cap on the PS pump is aftermarket it has a pinhole on the top and thats where it was bleeding out of.
i did this with the front end off the ground, until it wasnt bleeding anymore. let the car down to take a test drive.....and randomly turning left or right in gear, in park , or driving, - it has a come and go vibration.
this vibration is enough to shake the front tires, rattle the hood....im doing the install alone, no help. so i turn it until it started vibratiing, i get out the car (its in park) and you can see the tires vibration. its not the hoses reversed on the valve, because i already fixed that problem lol.
is this air in the system and is this normal until it works its way out? or is there a proper way to bleed the lines, any help appreciated, thanks
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
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06-19-12 02:54 PM - Post#2239195
In response to lone star
It sounds like air in the system. What does the fluid look like, is it foamy (tiny bubbles, frothy) or clear/translucent? What are you using for fluid?
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-19-12 03:03 PM - Post#2239199
In response to Jalapeno
im using power steering fluid. auto zone brand. when i first filled up the pump (this is my first time doing this) i knew i had to eventually bleed the system somehow just like brakes or anything hydraulic, i filled up the pump....went to turn on the car (front end on jack stands) turned car on, turn steering wheel left to right 1 complete turn ......then went to check fluid the pump was pretty much dry. refill the pump...continued turning the steering wheel left to right...the fluid in the pump was very foamy. it squirt out of the pump cap. (has a weep hole in the cap) it squirt alot, made a mess all over under the hood...
so then i did some googling and ended up, having the car on jacks...car off....turned the steering wheel from left to right, complete about 20 times....until no more fluid squirt. then i replaced the cap with an original cap i found in my garage (doesnt have a weep hole)
take the car off jacks...go for a test drive, as soon as i turn the wheel i get a bad vibration, it rattles the hood on the car, its intermittent. and happens at any point in the turning radius. doesnt matter if its left or right turn.......it does drive, and steer/turn it just has this vibration coming randomly. its enought to shake the motor and the alternator/bracket, so i sat in the driveway, and turn the wheel until it starts vibrating, and i got out, and you can literally see the tires vibrating. it hasnt gotten worse or better. ive turned the wheel atleast 50 times today. i test drove it for a good 3 miles...its still drives and turns somewhat, its not hard to turn, it just vibrates/shakes.....
forgot to add, the fluid is no longer foamy. it just just clear. no leaks in the system.
Edited by lone star on 06-19-12 03:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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lone star
Contributor
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Reg: 08-24-08
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06-19-12 03:44 PM - Post#2239217
In response to lone star
i had mama take a video of that me turning the steering wheel....you cant see the actual vibration, but you can hear the hood vibrating/rattling as im turning the wheel, and if you look at the reflection off the hood you can see it shaking. the car didnt have this problem when it was a manual steering car, so i doubt its motor mounts or anything like that. also it doesnt do this when its on jack stands and running, it turns and idles smooth, only when its on the ground does it do this.
(its raining bad right now or id back it out and get a better video)
http://s1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/lonestar6 ...
Edited by lone star on 06-19-12 03:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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 1963SBHD
"3rd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 135
Loc: south carolina
Reg: 09-01-11
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06-19-12 04:48 PM - Post#2239242
In response to lone star
Ist of all sorry for the trouble you are having with the steering Lone Star....and no jokes about the SCHWARTZ. Interested in the vibration; ie is it coming from the pump/pulley setup, or is it smooth until you get pressure on the system. I had a bad pulley that shook like hell when I turned the wheel, got another pump and pulley and my problems were history, but that was my case. If all the components are secure and adjusted, and in good working order, then it should be minimal vibration.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-19-12 04:54 PM - Post#2239245
In response to 1963SBHD
I will take a look tomorrow after work. No one was around to turn the wheel while i look under the hood. The downside of being a 1 man army. But it does the vibration at random points in the turning radius. No set point. And if i let it sit there at the point its vibrating, it eventaully stops vibrating....
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 Verne_Frantz
Valued Contributor
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Reg: 08-22-00
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06-19-12 05:19 PM - Post#2239253
In response to lone star
It sounds to me like one side of the control valve is fighting the other side. IN other words, when pressure is applied to one side in a turn, it seems there is also pressure being applied to the other side which causes the ping-pong effect (the vibration). But Jally is our steering guru so wait to hear from him. I"m just guessing.
Verne 
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
Loc: The Republic of Texas
Reg: 04-30-00
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06-19-12 09:00 PM - Post#2239322
In response to lone star
When you first posted you said you transferred all the parts over as a drop in. You then alluded to having reversed the hose fittings, so I'm guessing you at least made new hoses and got them wrong but corrected that problem, did I get that right? If so, what else did you change that you didn't mention? Maybe the short hoses from the valve to the cylinder got reversed? In my experience that would make the car undriveable, but it might not be so obvious to you, especially if the pump isn't working right. Let's check those hoses, here's how they should connect:
On the outboard end of the valve are the two same-size ports that connect to the cylinder. One is oriented above the other, make sense? On the cylinder, the ports are oriented so that one is closer to the front of the car, the other one is closer to the back of the car.
So on the valve, on the same-size connections on the outboard end, the TOP connection should go to the BACK connection on the cyl, and the BOTTOM connection goes to the FRONT connection on the cyl.
Check those out and post what you see.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 03:08 AM - Post#2239359
In response to Jalapeno
Yes i got the entire setup complete from a friend. Hoses included. When i was installing and connecting the hoses i thought to myself i wonder how these go...but since they are same shape and size i figured it didnt matter. The first time i cranked the car i turned the wheel 1 complete cycle....it turned.......i checked fluid. It was low....i put more fluid.....i turned car on....i touched wheel. It went violently from left to right. I googled.....i switched over the hoses....that problem went away. In a timeline, thats were my first post in this topic would occur. I will double check the hoses again today when i get home and possibly take another video. Thanks for the response.
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
Loc: The Republic of Texas
Reg: 04-30-00
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06-20-12 06:27 AM - Post#2239390
In response to lone star
Thanks for the additional info. I guess I'm missing something, the pump to valve hoses can't be connected wrong, they have different fittings at every end, so maybe you are talking about the valve to cyl hoses? But the symptom you describe, what's called automatic steering (wheels go back and forth by themselves) is symptomatic of reversing the pump to valve connections, not the valve to cylinder.
Did you at any time make new hoses, or change the fittings on the existing hoses?
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 09:32 AM - Post#2239445
In response to Jalapeno
The valve to cylinder hoses are the ones reversed (at first) causing the violent left and right turning. I corrected that problem. But the vibration/shake still exists. I did not make any new hoses. And i understand the pump to valve hoses cannot be mixed up because the fittings are different and the return side is using a hose clamp at the pump. I will snap pics and video this evening. Anxious to figure this out. Thanks again. Im guessing it has to be air in the system. But does air in system cause this vibration? The wheels are not hard to turn. The vibration doesnt make them any harder to turn. 1 thing that is missing is the sway bar bushing on the driver side because that is different from manual to pwr steering....but i think its higly unlikely that that is causing this problem because you dont even need a sway bar???
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 05:03 PM - Post#2239595
In response to Jalapeno
ok got some better pics and video. the video is still uploading. i almost want to say that its not doing it as bad as yesterday. the install is 32hrs old now. unfortunately as soon as i was about to say its not doing it anymore, it started doing it. here are some pictures of the plumbing.
i will upload the video as it finishes....keep in mind it only acts like this when the tires/front end are on the ground. when the front end is up on jacks it turns smooth no funny business.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 05:06 PM - Post#2239596
In response to lone star
the car is 62 , the setup came off a 62. the only thing that i dont think is 62 is the power steering pump because when the unit arrived, the brackety was different from what ive worked with in the past (62 63 64) BUT, i had a friend who had a 62 283 and powerglide laying around and he gave me the brackets off the 283, so now the comeplete assembly is 62 283.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 05:19 PM - Post#2239600
In response to lone star
one of the causes of the loud vibration i found is the passenger side wheel well is missing a bolt or 2, the previous owner removed the front clip to paint i guess he lost a couple bolts. but that still doesnt explain the tire/front end shaking the way it does....i thought it could be the power steering pump putting a load on the 283 and cause it to idle rough, but after having someone else turn the wheel and i watch, clearly its not that and theres something going on with this system.
please excuse the grease and grime, this car does get highway miles put on it.
http://s1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/lonestar6 ...
another video is uploading. 2 of 2
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 05:25 PM - Post#2239601
In response to lone star
the 2nd video, you can hear a whining noise...
http://s1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/lonestar6 ...
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impala
Senior Member
Posts: 1139
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Reg: 07-13-00
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06-20-12 06:15 PM - Post#2239617
In response to lone star
I'm sure you've checked the belt tightness and the proper belt that grips on the sides and isn't too narrow that it bottoms in the pulleys and slips!
Lacking that I would disassemble, clean and rebuild the pump. The kits are available as well as a rebuilt pump.
The pump can whine if the fluid is aerated but I think earlier you said it cleared up. I don't think it's a bleeding issue as these bleed relatively easy. they're not a closed system like brakes. Earlier you mentioned pressure in the reservoir which is also not normal.
impala
61 Impala Convertible, AACA senior
94 Jaguar, XJS, V12 coupe
11 Silverado
03 Impala Sedan |
Edited by impala on 06-20-12 06:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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lone star
Contributor
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Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 06:31 PM - Post#2239624
In response to impala
The belt is brand new and its correct. That was 1 of 2 things i bought new. The other being fluid lol. I questioned the pumps operability but the previous owner assured me that this whole assembly came off a running and drive car. And i trust him. How would the system act if the hoses from the valve to cylinder are kinked? The hoses didnt just fall into place it took a bit of effort to get them to fit without stripping those small threads on the fittings. Not sure if thats normal. In the past ive worked with either manual steering. Or 605 steering. Ive never rebuilt or install an oem power steering.
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impala
Senior Member
Posts: 1139
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Reg: 07-13-00
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06-20-12 07:35 PM - Post#2239651
In response to lone star
but the previous owner assured me that this whole assembly came off a running and drive car. And i trust him. How would the system act if the hoses from the valve to cylinder are kinked? The hoses didnt just fall into place it took a bit of effort to get them to fit without stripping those small threads on the fittings. Not sure if thats normal.
Running and driving but maybe starting to vibrate due to the pump going away! Unless you personally drove the donor car I wouldn't discount anything.
It's normal having to fight the hoses a little due to the routing. I doubt you could have kinked the pressure hose but the return hose is a lighter material and a tight enough bend could kink it. BTW the return hose has the smaller of the two fittings. The hose from the valve to the cylinder are both pressure hoses and looking at my 61 the routing is simple enough to make kinking improbable. The shop manual does describe how to check the pump pressure but it would be a project making up an inline gauge. Probably the pump could be rebuilt just as fast.
impala
61 Impala Convertible, AACA senior
94 Jaguar, XJS, V12 coupe
11 Silverado
03 Impala Sedan |
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-20-12 07:42 PM - Post#2239656
In response to impala
Good info, thanks
Pump could possibly need rebuild or replace.....but why would it only act like this (shaking front end) when the front end is on the ground, and not suspended in air on jackstands?
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
Loc: The Republic of Texas
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06-20-12 09:28 PM - Post#2239688
In response to lone star
Thanks for the pix lone star. Looks like the valve to cyl lines are plumbed right.
I still think it's probably air in the system.
Do you have line wrenches, sometimes called flare nut wrenches? If so, use them to tighten down all connections well. Air can be drawn into the system but not leak at that spot, you might be sucking in air somewhere. Long shot at best but I've experienced it myself.
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
Loc: The Republic of Texas
Reg: 04-30-00
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06-20-12 09:35 PM - Post#2239692
In response to lone star
Sent you a PT. To see it, click on "My ChevyTalk" on the top left of this page, drop down menu will have "View Private Topic", click on that.
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
Loc: The Republic of Texas
Reg: 04-30-00
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06-20-12 09:36 PM - Post#2239694
In response to lone star
Good info, thanks
Pump could possibly need rebuild or replace.....but why would it only act like this (shaking front end) when the front end is on the ground, and not suspended in air on jackstands?
No load when up in the air, next to zero resistance. Lots of resistance when on the ground.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-21-12 03:20 AM - Post#2239721
In response to Jalapeno
Yessir i have flare wrenches i used them. I got down on the fittings pretty good.didnt want to strip them. Sometimes i dont know my own strength. I will give u a call when i get off work at 3ish. Texas time.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-21-12 03:47 PM - Post#2239882
In response to lone star
Update = today i removed the hoses and checked for cracks, none. Replaced hoses and made sure extra tight. Rebleed the system correctly this time with someone turning wheel while i watched bubbles in the resv. Problem still exists. Think im going to try a new refurb pump. Had couple people suggest its the pump internals.
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doubleE
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3687
Loc: Eagan MN
Reg: 06-02-03
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06-21-12 04:07 PM - Post#2239894
In response to lone star
I have been following this thred and while I am no expert on power steering, wouldn't the control valve be the number 1 suspect? I rebuilt mine using a kit and seem to remember it wasn't all that striaght forward. I guessed at a couple items during the reassembly as the diagrams I had were not that clear. Must have guess right as the thing worked.
Eric
| Proud owner of
My Blue 62
Impala SS |
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-21-12 04:18 PM - Post#2239899
In response to doubleE
Well it has a number of variables. Air in system. Possible hose failure. Installer error. But im working out the kinks. I hope to have this solved by the end of the weekend. I will keep everyone whos watching posted and maybe save them some headache one day
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1963SBHD
"3rd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 135
Loc: south carolina
Reg: 09-01-11
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06-21-12 04:55 PM - Post#2239917
In response to lone star
Admire your persistance and trying to get it right. How many times have we all tried to save a few dollars with parts that were working fine but after the transfer were not really up to par. It is also great that we have so many experienced folks on this site. Jalepeno has provided so much information with his posts and helped me with questions I had pondered but never asked. Good luck with the rebuild on the pump and the slave, control valve. That should solve it for you. Sorry it was not the pulley/pump as it was for me.
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lone star
Contributor
Posts: 108
Reg: 08-24-08
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06-23-12 07:11 AM - Post#2240434
In response to lone star
update = bought a new /reman power steering pump and put it in yesterday, problem still exists, nothing changed. going to yank all this junk out , keep my new pump and do a 500 box conversion. tired of messing with it.
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Jalapeno
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 8488
Loc: The Republic of Texas
Reg: 04-30-00
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06-23-12 07:52 PM - Post#2240623
In response to lone star
I feel your pain, sorry you're having this problem, and this is a highly unusual problem, to be sure.
Call me again at the shop Monday, I want to try one more thing, it's a Hail Mary but it won't hurt to try.
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slo
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1991
Age: 30
Loc: Houston Tx
Reg: 03-16-08
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06-25-12 12:33 PM - Post#2241174
In response to Jalapeno
manual steerign aint so bad
1964 Impala SS
1964 Impala station wagon
1953 chevy 210
2005 Silverado |
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