Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-11-12 01:02 PM - Post#2235857
Hello all,
I have a '54 235 in a '37 coupe. Single carb with Fenton splits.
It runs smooth and hard on the front 3 cylinders, runs absolutely awful on rear 3. Swapped plugs and wires, no change. New points. Strong spark all cylinders. Valve clearance right. Timing to steel ball fine. Comp test just under 125 all cylinders. Running without mufflers, the front three are hot and even, the back are kafuffling and banging etc.
Pulled plug wires while running. Front three showed they are working hard. Rear three, hardly any difference. Engine will run on front three only, but not on back three.
Cam is Ok, not broken.
Only thing now is pull the cam and see if it is ground wrong.
I've had this engine forever, and when I rebuilt it it never ran right, but I had a tripower on it and chalked it up to the tripower. Now, years later, I put on a single carb thinking it would purr like a kitten...no such luck.
Any ideas?
Steve
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cederholm
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06-11-12 01:12 PM - Post#2235862
In response to Gibsons
Hello all,
I have a '54 235 in a '37 coupe. Single carb with Fenton splits.
It runs smooth and hard on the front 3 cylinders, runs absolutely awful on rear 3. Swapped plugs and wires, no change. New points. Strong spark all cylinders. Valve clearance right. Timing to steel ball fine. Comp test just under 125 all cylinders. Running without mufflers, the front three are hot and even, the back are kafuffling and banging etc.
Pulled plug wires while running. Front three showed they are working hard. Rear three, hardly any difference. Engine will run on front three only, but not on back three.
Cam is Ok, not broken.
Only thing now is pull the cam and see if it is ground wrong.
I've had this engine forever, and when I rebuilt it it never ran right, but I had a tripower on it and chalked it up to the tripower. Now, years later, I put on a single carb thinking it would purr like a kitten...no such luck.
Any ideas?
Steve
Steve,
First - Welcome!
Second - I gonna see a pic of your car!!!!
Third - to me your issue sounds ignition related. Are you sure you last three wires aren't mixed up? Is the you distributor cap arcing and missing? Are your wires arcing?
~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-11-12 01:50 PM - Post#2235876
In response to cederholm
Hi Carl,
Forgot to put that in my post. Cap excellent, wires not arcing. It really kicks up a fuss on the rear three...banging out the exhaust...the front three are running completely smooth and hot.
Over time, the rear three blew out the muffler they were attached to.
This has everyone in my area scratching their heads. Next step is to pull it.
The car is unrestored and had 30000 on it when I bought it in 1972.
I'll try and post some pix for ya.
Steve
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 6-bangertim
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-11-12 02:04 PM - Post#2235885
In response to Gibsons
Could be bad rockers and shaft on the back half. Are the rockers oiling?
Next guess are bad cam and lifters - not enough lift and duration to get a full charge in. Any way to check valve lift in the car?
Was the throttle blocked open during compression test?
I'd leave it in the car a little longer and keep testing - while it still runs.
Good Luck - let us know what you find!
Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-11-12 02:13 PM - Post#2235889
In response to 6-bangertim
Hi Tim,
Yes, throttle was open. Got just under 125 on all cylinders.
Head is off now, looking at lifters (all good) next step is to pull cam and check grind.
Since this thing never did run very well (kafuffling) I think the cam grind was off on the rear cylinders (the cam grinder did not index the 180 correctly maybe.)
Oh well, it's all fun anyway.
BTW...firing order checked several thousand times
153624 sister cylinders across from one another.
Steve
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-11-12 02:15 PM - Post#2235890
In response to cederholm
Hey Carl,
Can you give me an idea how to post a pic on this site. I cannot find the upload screen.
Steve
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 2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-11-12 03:04 PM - Post#2235906
In response to Gibsons
The method of fastening the intake and the exhaust segments of a Fenton header set is somewhat like the Williams. It is hard to get every thing tightened down correctly. I would check the ports of the intake manifold with a propane torch(unlit)the propane will enter the manifold around leaks and cause engine RPM to increase. If you have some bad leaks then you have a serious lean condition and will soon be burning valves. 
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
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arnieg141
Dedicated Enthusiast
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Loc: nj
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06-11-12 03:22 PM - Post#2235914
In response to 2blu52
i wonder if he left the intake sleaves out??????
| GET ER DONE .. AS I GET OLDER I LIKE FAST CARS I CAN STILL DRIVE. AND VERY SLOW WOMEN I CAN CATCH while still able..arnie garrison |
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-11-12 04:45 PM - Post#2235951
In response to arnieg141
Intake sleeves were in.
Just dialled the cam, it is opening both the exhaust and intake valves on 1 and 6 and they are exactly 360 crank degrees away from one another.
So, the cam is not broken or twisted or ground wrong it would seem.
Gonna have a beer and decide on next step.
Lessee...For Sale, 1937 Chev coupe, unrestored, needs motor.
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brokenhead
Contributor
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Loc: seattke
Reg: 12-10-11
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06-11-12 05:54 PM - Post#2235977
In response to Gibsons
I am pretty sure having the cam ground wrong would be very, very low on the list of problems, like really, very, very low. As a matter of fact that is the first time I have heard of anyone even thinking of that. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I would look EVERYWHERE else first.
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-11-12 06:37 PM - Post#2235995
In response to brokenhead
Yeah, we were pretty surprised when we ended up at that ending, but there was nothing left. Going to degree the cam to make sure it is installed correctly then start putting the old girl back together.
Thanks all for the suggestions. I will keep you posted.
Off for a few days now, get back to working on this problem on the weekend.
Steve
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dsacton
Contributor
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Loc: Boulder, CO
Reg: 11-01-11
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06-11-12 07:08 PM - Post#2236004
In response to Gibsons
Steve,
I'm pretty much a newbie at this stuff, but thought I would weigh in anyhow. I don't suppose you will get any ideas from me that you have not considered yet...but, hey this is what the CT forum is for, right?
Three things go into an ignition process: fuel, spark, and compression. Compression you have eliminated, but it is hard to see how you could have a serious cam issue without it showing up on a compression test. Somewhere on CT there is a thread that describeds what you should see for compression in each cycle or mode of the running engine. A single scalar value is not sufficient to say that the compression is OK.
I am assuming that you have put your timing light on all three of the back spark-plug wires, and confirmed that you have consistent and uniform spark.
In looking at my intake manifold ('54), it is interesting how the back three cylindars share a common 1/2 of the manifold. Is if possible that fuel is having a hard time getting to the back three? The butterfly valve on my car opens at a slant that, under some circumstances, would give preference to the from three cylinders. How does it run with the throttle 100% open?
The same question with regards to the exhaust manifold. What about that little thermally controled valve down by the exhaust manifold. Could that be broken or stuck in a position that favors the front three cylinders?
Longshots, I realize. Good luck!
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bradbrickstone
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Loc: Asheville, NC
Reg: 05-31-12
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06-11-12 08:54 PM - Post#2236053
In response to Gibsons
Yeah, we were pretty surprised when we ended up at that ending, but there was nothing left. Going to degree the cam to make sure it is installed correctly then start putting the old girl back together.
Thanks all for the suggestions. I will keep you posted.
Off for a few days now, get back to working on this problem on the weekend.
Steve
Look for carbon tracking within the dist. cap. Regardless of your findings, replace cap, rotor and recheck wiring sequence at cap AND at plugs.
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 Keith_Knox
Moderator and "10th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2736
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06-11-12 10:05 PM - Post#2236060
In response to Gibsons
Welcome. Here is the way to post pictures.
Posting pictures.
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?ti...
Also if you become a supporting member you can post direct from your post.
1948 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe Purchased 6/2010.
1996 Chevy Monte Carlo
2002 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab
2013 F150 Crew Cab |
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 52BA
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 137
Loc: Newberg, Oregon
Reg: 04-12-06
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06-12-12 06:48 AM - Post#2236136
In response to Gibsons
Check the clearance between the top of the header and the bottom of the intake, I had to relive the area between the two to allow the intake to seal properly.
Gary
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cederholm
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1310
Age: 46
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Reg: 09-28-10
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06-12-12 06:57 AM - Post#2236143
In response to Gibsons
Hey Carl,
Can you give me an idea how to post a pic on this site. I cannot find the upload screen.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Keith beat me to it with the link above. Personally I use photobucket to host pics. You can also become a supporting member here and you'll have image privileges.
This is an odd problem you have. Can you describe in more detail how the rear header was blown out?
~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-12-12 05:21 PM - Post#2236379
In response to cederholm
Hi Carl,
the rear header did not blow out, but the muffler attached to it did, since this engine has never run quite right from the get go.
I did the 44 thou measurement on the front exhaust lobe, and it measured out OK, but everyone is for pulling the cam and taking a look.
No big deal, I have a huge shop with lots of room and I don't need to drive the car.
I'll keep y'all posted...believe me, I will find the problem
Thanks for all the suggestions...
Steve
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cederholm
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1310
Age: 46
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Reg: 09-28-10
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06-13-12 06:35 AM - Post#2236543
In response to Gibsons
Hi Carl,
the rear header did not blow out, but the muffler attached to it did, since this engine has never run quite right from the get go.
I did the 44 thou measurement on the front exhaust lobe, and it measured out OK, but everyone is for pulling the cam and taking a look.
No big deal, I have a huge shop with lots of room and I don't need to drive the car.
I'll keep y'all posted...believe me, I will find the problem
Thanks for all the suggestions...
Steve
Yeah, listen to these guys (they're smatter then I am  )!
Man I wish I had a huge shop! 
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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Sir X Loin
Contributor
Posts: 239
Age: 37
Loc: Naples, Maine
Reg: 04-26-12
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06-13-12 06:38 AM - Post#2236546
In response to cederholm
Hi Carl,
the rear header did not blow out, but the muffler attached to it did, since this engine has never run quite right from the get go.
I did the 44 thou measurement on the front exhaust lobe, and it measured out OK, but everyone is for pulling the cam and taking a look.
No big deal, I have a huge shop with lots of room and I don't need to drive the car.
I'll keep y'all posted...believe me, I will find the problem
Thanks for all the suggestions...
Steve
Yeah, listen to these guys (they're smatter then I am )!
Man I wish I had a huge shop!
Thats the price of living in Brooklyn! My shop is 3 bays and 28'x36', in Maine.
1957 Chevy Pickup 1998 -2012 *sold
1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe |
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cederholm
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1310
Age: 46
Loc: Brooklyn NY
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06-13-12 07:03 AM - Post#2236558
In response to Sir X Loin
Thats the price of living in Brooklyn! My shop is 3 bays and 28'x36', in Maine.
HEY HEY HEY!!!! No one was talking to you!
3 bays and access to the best lobster on the planet! Just rub it in why don'tcha! 
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-13-12 09:47 AM - Post#2236646
In response to Sir X Loin
well, pulled all the lifters and 3 of them are showing signs of spalling....sooooo...out comes the cam for sure.
I took the head apart (913 head) and it looks pretty good, but not great. I have an 848 head that I will build up and use...it is a better head anyway.
Problem still lurking there, but it will be found.
Steve
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Keith_Knox
Moderator and "10th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2736
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Reg: 04-02-00
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06-13-12 11:02 AM - Post#2236686
In response to Gibsons
The problem you might find if you change the cam and the head and it solves the problem. You may not know which one was the problem.
1948 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe Purchased 6/2010.
1996 Chevy Monte Carlo
2002 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab
2013 F150 Crew Cab |
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one4dad
Contributor
Posts: 491
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Reg: 01-17-10
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06-13-12 02:45 PM - Post#2236764
In response to Gibsons
Just to join in this fray...Is it possible that the intake is blocked that feeds the last three. If it was off the car for a while it may have a muddobber, rats nest or something else like a rag. Seems that if fire is ok and getting gas to the carb then it may be a mechanical block of somekind or did I miss this in a conversation somewher....Bill
Bill Wilson - 51 styleline Deluxe 2 door three speed , fentons and offy 2 carb manifold - is now a 235
Also a 1950 Chevy 2 door styleline deluxe, great patina , no running gear |
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patgizz
Senior Moderator Member
Posts: 8098
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Reg: 01-30-00
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06-13-12 06:29 PM - Post#2236860
In response to Gibsons
cleaned up the BS.
nobody cares who can or can not rebuild a turboglide nor do i care for people whining about some 85 year old mechanic in asheville north carolina, nor do the rest of us. thank you in advance for not cluttering this thread back up with it.
you guys are the best, most civil, easiest to keep tabs on group here, let's keep it that way please.
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Keith_Knox
Moderator and "10th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2736
Age: 71
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Reg: 04-02-00
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06-13-12 10:19 PM - Post#2236950
In response to patgizz
1948 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe Purchased 6/2010.
1996 Chevy Monte Carlo
2002 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab
2013 F150 Crew Cab |
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6-bangertim
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-14-12 01:47 AM - Post#2236962
In response to Gibsons
For the muffler to blow out sure has me thinking a LEAN MISFIRE, or weak spark - causing unburned fuel to collect in the muffler. Do you have a dual diafram fuel pump, vacuum wipers? No missing gaskets or cracked insulator under the carb?
Look inside the plugs, down towards the base with a flashlight - did they all have the same coloration, or was it more of a chalk-white (lean)?
Kinda late now for a leak-down test to conform what you saw with the compression test. I just can't believe its a mechanical problem with 125 lbs. across the cylinders.
Did you try a different coil? Distributor? Check for play in the shaft. Check for changes in point gap on each cam lobe or find a shop that still might have a machine that could run it. Turn the oil pump with a screwdriver, check for binding.
If all else fails, check the local senior centers for an old Turboglide mechanic... 
DANG, forgot on my last post - WELCOME TO CHEVYTALK STEVE!!!
MUCHO Luck, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-15-12 07:51 AM - Post#2237384
In response to 6-bangertim
hi guys
sorry for the lack of posts...i had hand surgery wednesday and only hae a left hand now
will post as soon as i can type better
thinking now that something is causing it to crossfire thru the common intake/exhaust.
as i said before there are three bad lifters so pulling cam to check anyway but cannot do it with one hand
thanks for all the help and the warm welcomes
steve
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Dean50
"6th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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06-15-12 07:59 AM - Post#2237389
In response to Gibsons
Sorry to hear that. Hope everything heals up soon and you can get your engine problem solved.
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cederholm
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1310
Age: 46
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Reg: 09-28-10
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06-15-12 10:22 AM - Post#2237422
In response to Gibsons
hi guys
sorry for the lack of posts...i had hand surgery wednesday and only hae a left hand now
will post as soon as i can type better
thinking now that something is causing it to crossfire thru the common intake/exhaust.
as i said before there are three bad lifters so pulling cam to check anyway but cannot do it with one hand
thanks for all the help and the warm welcomes
steve
Damn!! Get better soon, that hand will come in handy while turning a wrench!
~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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Gibsons
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 06-11-12
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06-15-12 04:42 PM - Post#2237567
In response to 6-bangertim
Hello all.
Hand a bit better now, I cut the cast off so I could keyboard again.
I was looking at the valve springs, and one of them has LH coils, so off a PG. The rest of them are RH but under the right length (2 5/32 for PN 3835626) so I am really considering that this head that I bought at the Portland swap meet years ago is a bad head, lousy springs and is causeing it to crossfire thru the common inlet passage and burn the fuel that was going into the cylinder, causing it to produce no power.
I think I am getting close to the problem.
Steve
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