dsacton
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Loc: Boulder, CO
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06-10-12 08:13 PM - Post#2235615
Hi Folks,
I am starting on repairing some rusted areas on my 54 Bel Air. One spot in particular, the bottom of the driver's door, was leaded back in 1980 by a good auto body shop. A grass fire melted the lead out, and now I am going to repair it. Since it lasted for 20 years, until the fire, I figured I'd repair it with lead again.
Does anyone know of a good tutorial or discussion of how to lead rustouts?
Thanks,
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 2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-11-12 08:08 AM - Post#2235754
In response to dsacton
Leading was the method used to smooth out low spots in body work prior to the uses of chemical products. If I understand your question correctly you want to lead over areas that are rusted out and this will not work. You need to have back up material and use the lead to finish and smooth up the area. Lead alone will not do the job any more than using bondo over a large hole. 
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
THOMAS JEFFERSON |
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 davidchristopher
"4th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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06-11-12 11:23 AM - Post#2235819
In response to 2blu52
...and also... lead will, like, kill you, dude.
1951 Chevrolet Styleline Special. (350 4 Muncie '55 Driveshaft CE crossmember Heidts Mustang II front suspension, 3:10 Posi)
The '51 Chevy Blog
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dsacton
Contributor
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06-11-12 12:01 PM - Post#2235830
In response to davidchristopher
Thanks,
Is this a lost art? I have found almost no information about it.
The leaded areas on my car are small holes, no large rusted areas. There may have been some backing material used. If I remember correctly, it was a metal sheet, riveted in place. I think it was copper or brass.
The leaded areas of the car have held up (high temperature excepted), the bondo parts have rusted through. Point well taken about safety! I will use a respirator.
Cheers
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cederholm
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06-11-12 12:28 PM - Post#2235839
In response to dsacton
Thanks,
Is this a lost art? I have found almost no information about it.
The leaded areas on my car are small holes, no large rusted areas. There may have been some backing material used. If I remember correctly, it was a metal sheet, riveted in place. I think it was copper or brass.
The leaded areas of the car have held up (high temperature excepted), the bondo parts have rusted through. Point well taken about safety! I will use a respirator.
Cheers
Hi Scott,
Have you ever leaded a car before? I haven't personally but I've always wanted to. ...until I did a lot of research. I think the only thing I would lead now a days would be to French some lights - and only for bragging rights.
Today's plastic filler are superior in every way to lead - which is why only old-school craftsmens still lead. (BTW - I said plastic filler, not Bondo which is a brand name and not very good)
Regardless of which method you use you first need to eliminate the rust. Media blasting or cutting/welding might be best from what you're described.
If you haven't lead before and your heart is set, please do a lot of reading up on the subject because it is hazardous.
~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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56sedandelivery
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2563
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06-11-12 02:42 PM - Post#2235897
In response to cederholm
For the most part, leading, is a "lost art". However, Eastwood sells a kit and materials, and probably a tutorial. Might check over on JalopyJournal.Com, the HAMB, and see what they have to say; may even check in the Tech Archives there. Hemmings may be another sourse to consult. Butch/56sedandelivery.
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2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-11-12 02:59 PM - Post#2235902
In response to davidchristopher
Well it may if you eat it. The town 5 miles down the road had a lead smelter, deaths due directly to lead are rare. Over 10 years ago the EPA decided it had to be cleaned up and for 10 years they have been tearing up lawns, removing soil, bringing in new soil and burying the old soil in a pile near by. I have no idea how many million dollars they have spent doing this. The town probably has less than 10,000 residents and not all the yards require clean up. Something akin to their plan to clean up an old mining town about 10 miles the other direction, started at 5 million, now at 25 million to replace septic tanks and water wells with a community system for 150 or fewer folks.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
THOMAS JEFFERSON |
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 usmile4
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06-11-12 03:10 PM - Post#2235909
In response to 2blu52
We have a sportsman's club in my town where we go to trap shoot.Several years ago the anti gun people felt the park should not be located within the city limits (the land was donated by deed over 150 years ago with the stipulation that it always be a gun club!) so they petitioned the EPA saying lead shot was a hazard and since a small drainage ditch runs through the property, the EPA agreed so instead of closing down, the club went to all steel shot.
Now they are coming in to clean up all the lead shot...millions in cost!
Bill Gommel
49 chevy Styleline (Sold), 51 Styleline 2 dr Special, 235 (from a 61 truck) bored .060 over, Dual Carter/Webers, Fenton Headers, T5- 5 speed with a 56 rear end. |
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 53belair
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06-11-12 04:21 PM - Post#2235935
In response to cederholm
Carl
Your response is probably the best advice on the entire subject. Good job 
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2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 13087
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06-11-12 04:30 PM - Post#2235942
In response to 2blu52
Sorry about my vent, lead is bad stuff but I think highly overated for clean up. I should not have got into that subject in this forum.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
THOMAS JEFFERSON |
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dsacton
Contributor
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06-11-12 05:28 PM - Post#2235966
In response to 2blu52
Howdy,
Thanks for your help. I am going to check the suggested resources and then, what the heck, give it a shot. If am am not happy with the results, then I'll do the rest of the car in plastic filler.
Hey 2blu52. No worries! I am with you 100% on this.
Cheers
Scott
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56sedandelivery
Valued Contributor
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06-11-12 08:05 PM - Post#2236039
In response to dsacton
The last two "lead" comments are funny, but I have you beat. I'm a retired X-Ray/C.A.T. Scan Tech, and in our work world we use protective barriers and shielding made of LEAD. Even the room walls are lined with a specific thickness of lead sheeting 8 feet up from the floor; sheet rock made with a layer of lead added to it, corners overlapped with lead sheeting, leaded glass used in the control booth window, etc. At one hospital I worked, we were having an E.R. Trauma X-Ray room redone. BUT, they found out the old wall for our protective control booth had NO lead in it! How that happened is too stupid to go into. I worked with a guy who had a real dead pan sense of humor; his response to the no lead in the wall deal, "at least they used lead based paint". It became the running joke for years in the department.  Butch/56sedandelivery.
Edited by 56sedandelivery on 06-11-12 08:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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dsacton
Contributor
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06-11-12 10:17 PM - Post#2236062
In response to 56sedandelivery
Ha! That's quite a story. Years ago, I did a bit of work with X-rays (and lead shielding) in a physics lab. Lead everywhere.
Cheers
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 4D50STYDLX
"3rd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-11-12 10:57 PM - Post#2236069
In response to 56sedandelivery
Hey Butch, spent most of my working days as a x-ray tech at ACW in Seattle. No people just welds. The glass was treated with Beryllium, kind of yellowish looking glass.
Roger
Roger
1950 Style Line Deluxe 4 Door with a 1957 235
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fbama73
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06-11-12 11:04 PM - Post#2236071
In response to dsacton
Lead can be dangerous if improperly worked. You don't sand lead, you file it. And (I'm pretty sure)you have to be careful not to heat it too much or it can vaporize and get airborne that way.
My plan for my Chevy is that it's already had enough plastic in the body. I'm building it as a lead sled, and I mean a TRUE lead sled. I have the materials to apply it, and a nice selection of vixen files to shape it.
When I get to the point of smoothing things out, I'll be sure to document my learning curve and results on my blog, so those interested can see.
Nothing wrong with using plastic, if it's done right- I'm just wanting to learn and use some of the traditional techniques as I build a traditional custom
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cederholm
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06-12-12 06:33 AM - Post#2236129
In response to 53belair
Carl
Your response is probably the best advice on the entire subject. Good job
Thank you! 
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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cederholm
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06-12-12 06:41 AM - Post#2236132
In response to fbama73
Lead can be dangerous if improperly worked. You don't sand lead, you file it. And (I'm pretty sure)you have to be careful not to heat it too much or it can vaporize and get airborne that way.
This is 100% correct! And I admire fbama73 for staying old school. I've had thought about doing it myself for the same reasons but not on a four-door  . I'm also not crazy about the idea of not being able to sand lead, if you want nice paint you need to lay down something that's sandable on top of the lead. That means a extra step that I can do without on this project.
2blu52 - did you overreact? I didn't interoperate your post that way. Lead is dangerous if improperly used but it's not Antrax lol. I see nothing wrong with using it if your well informed as fbama73 is. I just don't want to see someone jump in and treat it like bondo.
~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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fbama73
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06-12-12 10:45 AM - Post#2236215
In response to cederholm
There's also lead free body solder available that is non-toxic and totally sandable, but I haven't done enough research on that.
And I always love picking up new skills- If I come out of my Chevy project with a cool car, it's great, but if I come out of it with a great car and some new skills, it's awesome. So far, I've gotten pretty good at gas welding sheetmetal. Before the car is done, I want to also be good at leading, upholstery, and possibly cutting glass- all things I've never done before.
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 kensluys
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-12-12 12:20 PM - Post#2236250
In response to fbama73
I've got a couple of video series that I bought about 12 years ago. One was on auto restoration, and the other one was just on auto body work and painting. I believe one or both of them had some information on using lead fillers.
I'll check into it and see what they have. These were VHS tapes, so I'll have to connect up the machine and take a look at them.
| 1951 BelAir - Bought it in 1969, sold it in 1970, found it and bought it again in 1999. |
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DocMike
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06-12-12 07:32 PM - Post#2236427
In response to dsacton
When I was in high school I took "auto body I & II" at the local vocational school. Our teacher was not a highly educated man but, he had 36 years of working in body shops as his education. We were taught leading by a man that I would have to say was a master at his craft. The skill of leading is not the easiest to learn and you either have the knack or you don't. About 1/3 of my class picked up the skill pretty easy but, there were only about 3 or 4 of us that were really good at it. Yes, I was one of the guys that was good at it. The hardest thing to master was knowing what temperature to keep the lead to keep it workable but not too hot. A few degrees too hot and you will have a lump of lead on the floor. I recently picked up a leading kit from Eastwood and I'm going to see if I can re-learn a skill that I haven't used in 30 years.
I plan on doing my '51 as a '50s style mild custom and I'm hoping to do my body mods in lead the way they used to do it.
Doc
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Trilfaz
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06-12-12 10:39 PM - Post#2236482
In response to DocMike
Right on DocMike I too was taught lead in college back in the day, I have done all my cars in lead but have had to learn plastic. I use to buy lead in star bars, high in lead little tin, the lead from Eastwood works well but is higher in tin. Make it a bit harder to use as real lead but go for it it's great. I'm sure lead is not good for ya to eat but I've been using it for 40 years so I don't need protection from xrays :}
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cederholm
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06-13-12 06:38 AM - Post#2236545
In response to DocMike
When I was in high school I took "auto body I & II" at the local vocational school. Our teacher was not a highly educated man but, he had 36 years of working in body shops as his education. We were taught leading by a man that I would have to say was a master at his craft. The skill of leading is not the easiest to learn and you either have the knack or you don't. About 1/3 of my class picked up the skill pretty easy but, there were only about 3 or 4 of us that were really good at it. Yes, I was one of the guys that was good at it. The hardest thing to master was knowing what temperature to keep the lead to keep it workable but not too hot. A few degrees too hot and you will have a lump of lead on the floor. I recently picked up a leading kit from Eastwood and I'm going to see if I can re-learn a skill that I haven't used in 30 years.
I plan on doing my '51 as a '50s style mild custom and I'm hoping to do my body mods in lead the way they used to do it.
Doc
Doc, PLEASE photograph and post your progress. I for one would love to see your leading and project.
~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits! |
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fbama73
Contributor
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06-13-12 07:38 AM - Post#2236588
In response to cederholm
DocMike- you sound like you think similarly to me.
Are you by any chance coming to Indy for the Road Rockets show next weekend?
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kensluys
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-13-12 08:47 AM - Post#2236624
In response to fbama73
I dug out the old video series that I had, and then looked them up on the internet. Here is the current information on the car restoration video that I was talking about:
http://carestoration.com/tape4.htm
I don't have any experience with leading, but the guys in this video seemed to be knowledgeable and very experienced.
| 1951 BelAir - Bought it in 1969, sold it in 1970, found it and bought it again in 1999. |
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Coley
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06-18-12 09:25 PM - Post#2238964
In response to kensluys
The sad part is that old, craftsmen, good with working with steel, frowned on the use of lead as a poor substitue for good body work.
They said that if you needed to lead a joint or patch, you had not done your metal work properly.
Body filler is the same thing, but much easier to use.
I used lead when I ran my restoration shop as some customers demanded it.
On my own cars I used body filler after I had the metal worked, hammer welded etc. so only a light skin coat was needed.
A lot of finish work in the older shops was heavy primer, used like spot putty today.
Lead doesn't like to be painted, so keep it very clean and flux, tallow free.
It is an almost lost art and might as well be.
| Any man that thinks he is too old to learn new things, probably always was.... |
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fbama73
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06-18-12 10:59 PM - Post#2238975
In response to Coley
Coley, you're really hitting the nail on the head with some of your points, here.
Any dent, patch or repair can be worked perfectly with nothing but steel. But, it takes a lot of time. That last little bit of working things to absolute perfection takes the most time in this process.
Fillers (lead or plastic) were develped to cut out the last little bit of metalworking- you work it until it's very close, and use the filler for the last little bit. It saves hours of work.
Plastic fillers got a bad reputation because guys started using them to replace ALL of the metalwork. "Body man in a can," essentially.
But, used properly (for that last little bit), there's nothing wrong with either type.
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2blu52
"12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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06-19-12 05:38 AM - Post#2239033
In response to Coley
The sad part is that old, craftsmen, good with working with steel, frowned on the use of lead as a poor substitue for good body work.
They said that if you needed to lead a joint or patch, you had not done your metal work properly.
Body filler is the same thing, but much easier to use.
I used lead when I ran my restoration shop as some customers demanded it.
On my own cars I used body filler after I had the metal worked, hammer welded etc. so only a light skin coat was needed.
A lot of finish work in the older shops was heavy primer, used like spot putty today.
Lead doesn't like to be painted, so keep it very clean and flux, tallow free.
It is an almost lost art and might as well be.
How true in the 50s and I refer to early late, a car with lead in it was not considered a good buy.Carried the same stigma as a car with bondo smoothing dents.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"
THOMAS JEFFERSON |
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davidchristopher
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06-19-12 07:47 AM - Post#2239083
In response to fbama73
Plastic fillers got a bad reputation because guys started using them to replace ALL of the metalwork. "Body man in a can," essentially.
Ah- you mean like this:
Which had been plastered over this:
1951 Chevrolet Styleline Special. (350 4 Muncie '55 Driveshaft CE crossmember Heidts Mustang II front suspension, 3:10 Posi)
The '51 Chevy Blog
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