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 Page 1 of 2 12
Username Post: No oil filter??!!        (Topic#281171)
Sir X Loin 
Contributor
Posts: 243
Sir X Loin
Age: 38
Loc: Naples, Maine
Reg: 04-26-12
05-15-12 04:00 PM - Post#2226267    

I have had my 51 all of a week. Its a 216 6volt styleline. I finally got around to putting it up on jack stands and was going to start changing the oil. I noticed arelier that the P/O had removed the canister oil filter. I assmued this was done because of the split Fentons. I figured it had a remote filter and i'd be able to see it from underneth. Well, I looked and looked today and there is nothing! I see a block off plate between the Fentons and nothing as far as an oil filter goes!

I have had several SBC's and many other cars and have NEVER heard of this. is this normal? WTF!
1957 Chevy Pickup 1998 -2012 *sold
1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe


 
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ken48 
Contributor
Posts: 254
ken48
Age: 72
Loc: Vermont
Reg: 06-02-07
05-15-12 04:08 PM - Post#2226268    
    In response to Sir X Loin

Yup. Normal.
Oil filters were an option back in the day.
ken48

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/48fleetlin e...


 
one4dad 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 774
one4dad
Age: 71
Loc: Baton Rouge La
Reg: 01-17-10
05-15-12 04:17 PM - Post#2226270    
    In response to Sir X Loin

Oil filters were optional equipment on our 51. I have fentons on mine and I am mounting my filter in a remote location, as The optional stock filter will not mount to the fentons without fabricating a plate. remember if you decide to use something other than the stock canister that you must get a bypass filter as in the stock condition only about 10% of the oil is filtered while running. The NAPA guy hooked me up with a base and a spin on that is set up for bypass oil flow. It will be much easier to change. but I haven't fully run the hoses from the two block connection as I am stil working out fittings and routing through the emergency brake, shift rods, dual exhaust and the accelerator spring, but I am close..real close. You cannot run a full flow filter as it will potentailly starve your engine for oil. I will get you the part numbers and post a little later. Thre are some good posts about this including a schematic on tube routing when it was mounted on the stock intake use the search feature.
Bill
Bill Wilson - 51 styleline Deluxe 2 door three speed , fentons and offy 2 carb manifold - is now a 235 Also a 1950 Chevy 2 door styleline deluxe, great patina , no running gear and finally a 2009 GMC Crew Cab


 
one4dad 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 774
one4dad
Age: 71
Loc: Baton Rouge La
Reg: 01-17-10
05-15-12 04:41 PM - Post#2226276    
    In response to Sir X Loin

the NAPA part numbers Spin on Filter PN# 1050 and the mounting base PN# 4755. By the way the only reason I didn't use the cannister was one it had a lot of scale after sitting up with water in it for a long time and NAPA was struggling to find the correct filter element, particulary the gasket as when the element was correct the gasket was too big, besides as I said earlier the spin on will be less messy to change, Bill
Bill Wilson - 51 styleline Deluxe 2 door three speed , fentons and offy 2 carb manifold - is now a 235 Also a 1950 Chevy 2 door styleline deluxe, great patina , no running gear and finally a 2009 GMC Crew Cab


 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
05-15-12 05:01 PM - Post#2226280    
    In response to Sir X Loin

Dealer installed option and one that not many people spent the money for.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14857

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
05-15-12 05:06 PM - Post#2226285    
    In response to one4dad

When I purchased the 52 I walked into the local NAPA store and was taken care of by old Bob, told him that I needed a filter and he asked is it a Fram or an AC, Fram I said, and old bob walked over to the filters and picked out a NAPA Gold 1006, fits perfectly. To bad but old Bob was a heavy cigarrete smoker and died of lung cancer about 4 years ago. He was an all original parts man.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


Edited by 2blu52 on 05-15-12 05:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
khardy 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2131
khardy
Loc: At sea or in Houston, Tex...
Reg: 12-17-99
05-15-12 06:05 PM - Post#2226305    
    In response to 2blu52

Here is some old info on AC Oil Filter Canister Installation for Chevrolet 1940 - 1955


Should give an idea of how they were installed.

Cheers!
Keith

My 1951 Chevy
Old Online Chevy Manuals


 
rrausch 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 10968
rrausch
Loc: L.A, Cal. & St. Louis...
Reg: 04-07-03
05-15-12 06:22 PM - Post#2226313    
    In response to khardy

I use NAPA gold oil filters on all my old vehicles.
1953 210 Convertible, 261 with dual Carter YF 966S carbs, P.S., Remote Bendix P.B. Booster... shade-tree restoration about done.




 
Sir X Loin 
Contributor
Posts: 243
Sir X Loin
Age: 38
Loc: Naples, Maine
Reg: 04-26-12
05-15-12 06:38 PM - Post#2226321    
    In response to rrausch

Wow, thats crazy it was an option! I've never heard of such a thing. Granted I'm 36 and am a child of the 80's!

I guess I dont really "need" to run one. I do feel like I should drop the pan (as its leaking anyway) and clean the sludge out. It has to be pretty full by this point.

Thanks for the fantastic help. Im going to look at that "add on" oil filter link.
1957 Chevy Pickup 1998 -2012 *sold
1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe


 
fbama73 
Contributor
Posts: 303
fbama73
Age: 45
Loc: Indianapolis
Reg: 04-17-10
05-15-12 07:55 PM - Post#2226341    
    In response to Sir X Loin

The 216 in my car has one, the '55 235 that's going to replace it didn't come with one from the factory.
My '51 Styleline Spl. build: http://51kustom.blogspot.com/


 
roger328 
Contributor
Posts: 130

Loc: Texarkana,TX
Reg: 05-20-08
05-15-12 07:55 PM - Post#2226342    
    In response to Sir X Loin

That's why most engines had to be overhauled at about 50,000 miles or less.

 
Keith_Knox 
Moderator and "12th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Keith_Knox
Age: 73
Loc: Napa, Ca USA
Reg: 04-02-00
05-15-12 09:16 PM - Post#2226378    
    In response to Sir X Loin

Good idea to drop the pan. The 47 I had,ended up with water in the oil. I dropped the pan to help clean up and the sludge was touching the suction screen.
1948 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe Purchased 6/2010. Stock with rebuilt 52 216 installed May 1966
1996 Chevy Monte Carlo
2002 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab
2013 F150 Crew Cab


 
brokenhead 
Contributor
Posts: 164

Loc: seattke
Reg: 12-10-11
05-21-12 04:07 AM - Post#2228094    
    In response to Keith_Knox

Oh it is possible to install a full flow oil filter along with full pressure to the rods in a 216. Only thing is you need to have the engine fully apart to do it, as you will need to get the crankshaft drilled, and you will make a lot of shavings.

Edited by brokenhead on 05-21-12 04:12 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BottleJack 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 93

Reg: 02-09-12
05-21-12 09:25 AM - Post#2228192    
    In response to Sir X Loin

A stock 1951 216 engine has a "filter", not a big one but a filter that few people recognize: it's a fine mesh screen on the oil pump intake. {it does work, just not super-great).

Yes, get new gasket set for the oil pan , remove the oil pan and inspect that screen on the oil pump and clean out any sludge in the pan. DO NOT disturb the pan nozzles, OR the little dippers on the rod bearing caps.

The optional by-pass filter for those engines DOES NOT only filter 10% of the oil. That is internet myth. The by-pass filters of that era divert 5%-20% of the oil FLOW (measured in gallons per minute) at a given RPM and the remaining oil FLOW (gpm) is unfiltered to the oil galleries and the jet nozzles.

In simple terms, the by-pass filters will filter 100% of the oil ,it just takes them a few minutes longer versus an in-line full-pressure-full-flow filter.

Drilling a 216 crankshaft for full-pressure lubrication and full-psi filtering is a very meticulous and expensive (and often unnecessary procedure) on that 216. It's a racers method that needs a wise man to perform.

Summary: 1951- 216ci.
No Filter = OK, but change oil very often, and make sure your air filter and road draft tube are kept very clean (along with oil pump mesh).
By-Pass Filter = Better, but again it's wise on an antique engine to change the oil often. Gasoline from engine tends to dilute, and water vapor condenses --- so frequent oil change helps.
Full-PSI Filter on 216- Exotic, can be very good, but rarely understood in the context of new guys. Best left to very devoted and experienced stovebolt in-liners.


 
brokenhead 
Contributor
Posts: 164

Loc: seattke
Reg: 12-10-11
05-21-12 12:10 PM - Post#2228238    
    In response to BottleJack

drilling the crank was neither hard or expensive, crower cams has a program for it and it cost $180. The rest of the set up is extremely easy to do, the hardest part was removing the troughs from the oil pan. It was no more complicated than trying to get the 2 bolts out of the back of the timing gear cover. Or shimmming the bearing clearances. (How many cars do you see with shims in the rod/main caps any more?) Yes it is uneccesary, but then again even trying to restore one of these beasts is technically uneccesary.

 
cederholm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1608
cederholm
Age: 47
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Reg: 09-28-10
05-21-12 12:29 PM - Post#2228245    
    In response to brokenhead

I don't need no stinking filter!!!!!

In fact, I freaked just like you when I first got my car. It's the oldest car I've ever owned. When I pulled the valve cover it was mildly gummed up with sludge - something I've know learned is common - but when I pulled the oil pan I was amazed how clean it and the whole bottom end was.

Hope you get the same surprise that I got.

~ carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits!


 
BottleJack 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 93

Reg: 02-09-12
05-21-12 01:18 PM - Post#2228266    
    In response to brokenhead

I stand by my opinion.

That 216 (or hi-torque 235) crankshaft drilling process is at best highly technical and should ONLY be performed by experts, OR it is left in the hands of amateurs hopefully wishing for pure magic.

I have seen those done locally near me FAIL miserably.

brokenhead: if you had it done, and it works to your budget & satisfaction , then I can only say that you were both wise and lucky.

The method has been around since at least 1949 (in my reference books) and was derived from the hotrodding success of the Chevies cousin {the 228, etc GMC 6's}. BUT --- proponents of the "full-psi drilling process" were experimental "hop-up" racers {Roger Huntington, Bill "California" Fisher, etc, etc} and the method faded-away slowly after devoted Full-PSI Chevy 6's and the Chev V-8 became plentiful. {Even Huntington and Fisher praised the old Chevy oiling system for the average guy!!}.

Note; that cross-drilling & campfering new crank journal holes, threading off ends of oil galleries, swapping oil pumps, and removing troughs has been around a long while BUT I have NEVER seen where that method was EVER proven to work better for the average Chevy Guy than the simple swap from old cast iron pistons to aluminum pistons, and bearing inserts into the big end of connecting rods.

I guess what I mean to say is : if your happy spending the time, money, and effort to convert to a cross-drilled full-psi 216 then I applaud your efforts! It is a very advanced step for those old engines and quite different than the latter full-psi Chevy 235's (full-psi 235's latter main bearings were oft different lengths and prog. area in journal size, pistons different,rods different , than early 216/235's) so it is like comparing apples to oranges on the relative wear and beneficial effects between both lubricating systems.

Q - "How many cars do you see with shims in the rod/main caps any more?"
A - Today, if you buy a new set of main bearings for either the older 216, or newer full-psi 235, you will likely get a set of "shims" because of the way the bearing manufacturer designed their bearings to fit in your engine. Shims were made to make precision insert bearings (eccentric versions especially) fit "perfectly" around shafts due the designed variation in crown and parting-line thickness of the bearing shell.
If you have the old stovebolt align-bored, then have the subsequent insert bearings align-honed for clearance, then "shims" are often not needed because the bearing "fit" was achieved by your machining. Rod conversion inserts will seldom have (or need) shims because the bearing manufacturer simply wants you to replace a worn "precision insert" bearing and not "shim it" to reduce the vertical oil clearance on the rod bearing.



 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14857

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
05-21-12 01:35 PM - Post#2228268    
    In response to brokenhead

With most shop labor close to or exceeding $100.00 an hour my guess is that the quoted $180.00 is very light. If one adds shipping a crank at todays freight costs things could get pretty costly. My 216 was converted to insert rod bearings by the previous owner (owned machine shop) and his estimate of the cost to do that at the time 12 or more years ago was $600.00. The 216 is a strong engine, works very well under some very severe operating conditions. I hot rodded two of them in the 50s and was just about as abusive as you could get. Never had a problem but I feel the saving factor there was removal of the cast iron pistons and replacing them with aluminum pistons, and shaving about 18 pounds offf the fly wheel. 1,000 miles was the limit on an oil change and I had no filter.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
bobg1951chevy 
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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bobg1951chevy
Age: 72
Loc: Ellijay, GA
Reg: 02-18-08
05-21-12 08:13 PM - Post#2228430    
    In response to BottleJack

Bob G.

1951 Styleline Deluxe 2 dr sedan. 1955 235" 3 speed std.
1951 Styleline Deluxe Sport Coupe. 1962 246" 3 speed std. o/d.

www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/215790 56...








 
Sir X Loin 
Contributor
Posts: 243
Sir X Loin
Age: 38
Loc: Naples, Maine
Reg: 04-26-12
05-21-12 10:49 PM - Post#2228481    
    In response to BottleJack

What do you mean by "keeping the road draft tube clean."

I had the valve cover off and zero sludge. I was suprised. I havent done the pan yet.

Thanks for the informative replies!!!
1957 Chevy Pickup 1998 -2012 *sold
1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe


 
brokenhead 
Contributor
Posts: 164

Loc: seattke
Reg: 12-10-11
05-22-12 04:20 AM - Post#2228509    
    In response to Sir X Loin

the $180 is the actual cost, at crower cams, who as far as I know is an extremely competent, and reputable company. True the shipping was about $110, but given the amount of money spent on one of these projects, it is a drop in the bucket. I don't consider $300 (counting shipping) a lot of money for a project like this, yes it is probably uneccesary, but it is my engine and I will do with it as I please. I only take it to about 4500 rpm but it sure does sound nice. I am still trying to figure out why I would need to line bore and ream the bearings. The bearing bores in the block are (the term "perfectly" is relative here) perfectly round, with their alignment as perfect as most any small block produced, the diameter of which is held to +/- .0005". While the crankshaft journals are also held to strict tolerances of +/- .0005" as well. The bearings that are being produced these days are also held to tight tolerances, also virtually all insert bearings have eccentricity, to make up for any discrepancy in the parting line as you have suggested, and to allow for clearance when the bearing is under tension and elongates, as well as there being a "reservoir" holding oil. I didn't have to line bore my block as it was just fine as far as alignment, and diameter. I had the crank ground to a standard .040" undersize and had .002" clearance. I don't know about other companies, but for engines produced after 1949, egge doesn't supply shims with the bearings because they don't need them, they are just like any engine with insert bearings. I have a feeling the shim thing was momentum from the old babbit days, and they thought it would be a good idea to be able to adjust them. (which isn't a totally bad idea) Besides the fact that the fella at the machine shop got shims and there was ONE shim of .011" for each side of the bearing, kind of adjustment can you do with that? I suppose if you consider $300 a lot of money and need help running a pipe tap, and can't make a couple of simple bends in some tubing then yes it would be very expensive and difficult. But I have a full flow filter and pressure to the rods, it isn't for every body, but I like it (this thread was about filters after all)

 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
05-22-12 05:44 AM - Post#2228536    
    In response to brokenhead

With a full pressure system and insert bearings it is not necessary to line bore. When using Babbit bearings in rods and main bearings it is necessary.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
BottleJack 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 93

Reg: 02-09-12
05-22-12 09:13 AM - Post#2228605    
    In response to brokenhead

Sir X Loin : If you don't have positive crankcase ventilation, one of the small sources of getting outside dirt in your oil was the "road draft tube". It has an internal "baffle" behind it in the engine block ... but it can get dirty with weird mud, wasp nest, mouse nest, and general road debri. Many old timers remember the draft tubes puking oil on the road when lugging uphill. Along with the vent slots on the valve (rocker) cover and carburetor air filter, the road draft tube is just another source of possible dirt& grit entry to your oil. Some old-timers would stuff an oil soaked Brillo-pad-like wad of steel wool up in them to keep debri out and maybe limit oil puking----I would not recommend this "Brillo" method.

This thread is wandering from the topic of "no oil filter" so I will end my participation with this observation ---

brokenhead: your experience and knowledge on the "shimming" of bearings for oil clearances is excellent! Please note an important point I previously made "... "shims" because of the way the bearing manufacturer designed their bearings to fit in your engine." I think align-boring and subsequent align-reaming (aka; honeing) {especially on Chevy's prior to 47'} was done because of the design of their bearings and the thickness of their babbitt. In short IMHO; the whole topic of "shims" is dependent on the bearing manufactures bearing "insert shells" they make for your motor.

PS- My apologies to anyone offended for "beating a dead horse" with this knowledge. I had no idea this information was so commonly available on Chevytalk!



 
cederholm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1608
cederholm
Age: 47
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Reg: 09-28-10
05-22-12 09:29 AM - Post#2228606    
    In response to Sir X Loin

  • Sir X Loin Said:
What do you mean by "keeping the road draft tube clean."

I had the valve cover off and zero sludge. I was suprised. I havent done the pan yet.

Thanks for the informative replies!!!




Keeping your road-draft tube clean and functioning properly will help remove blow-by from your motor. Even better, replace the road-draft tube with a PCV system (very easy to make)

If you're unclear what the road-draft tube is, I'll explain. On the passenger's side of the motor, between the fuel pump and distributor there is a tube that comes out of the block and sticks below the engine. It's about 1.5" to 2" in diameter.

When you're diving, the air that blows over the opening of that tube creates a vacuum. This vacuum sucks the blow-boy and other vapors out of your motor helping to keep it clean. The bad news is that stuff isn't good to breath and oil often comes out making a mess of your engine.

If you are not restoring to factory specs and PCV system is your best bet as it takes that same blow-by and re-introduces it into the combustion chamber where it is re-burnt.

For my PCV system I took the road draft tube with me to the auto parts store and over to the PCV stand. There I found a large rubber grommet that would fit the whole where the tube came from. Then a found a PCV valve that would fit the grommet that was from a similarly sized engine. Then some vacuum tube that would fit the other end of the PCV valve and a T fitting.

Back at the motor (in the parking lot) I put the grommet in, then the PCV valve in the grommet, then ran the vacuum line to a split I made in the windwhild wiper vacuum line where I conneceted everything with the T fitting. Done in 10 minutes.

Hope this helps even though I for got what the question was.

~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits!


 
brokenhead 
Contributor
Posts: 164

Loc: seattke
Reg: 12-10-11
05-22-12 11:56 AM - Post#2228650    
    In response to cederholm

actually one of the engines I acquired had the coolest little bypass filter that bolted right on the triangle area where the regulator sits. I have never seen or heard of one before. But it sure is a dandy, if I ever build one of these engines mostly stock I think I will install it. If anyone wants to see it I suppose I could post some pictures. (actually my wife will post pictures, I work on the cars she works on the computer)

I would like to get hold of some NOS bearings for one of these engines and see what the actual difference is, they must have a lot of eccentricity to allow for shimming and still not be tight on the sides???? now you got me thinking...

Edited by brokenhead on 05-22-12 11:58 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
cederholm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1608
cederholm
Age: 47
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Reg: 09-28-10
05-22-12 12:31 PM - Post#2228658    
    In response to brokenhead

  • brokenhead Said:
actually one of the engines I acquired had the coolest little bypass filter that bolted right on the triangle area where the regulator sits. I have never seen or heard of one before. But it sure is a dandy, if I ever build one of these engines mostly stock I think I will install it. If anyone wants to see it I suppose I could post some pictures. (actually my wife will post pictures, I work on the cars she works on the computer)

I would like to get hold of some NOS bearings for one of these engines and see what the actual difference is, they must have a lot of eccentricity to allow for shimming and still not be tight on the sides???? now you got me thinking...



I want to see!!! Perhaps in a new thread.

~ Carl
Carl E. Cederholm
Brooklyn NYC
'53 Deluxe MoreDoor, triPPPle Rochesters, Fenton exhaust, dual Porter mufflers, 3" drop, 12v, and Offenhauser shinny bits!


 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14857

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
05-22-12 02:16 PM - Post#2228691    
    In response to cederholm

Very direct and simple way to handle the PCV installation. There have been others post their own version of the system but none as simple as yours.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
free_bird49221 
Contributor
Posts: 218
free_bird49221
Loc: Adrian, MI
Reg: 04-29-12
05-23-12 01:01 AM - Post#2228848    
    In response to 2blu52

i dont have a vehicle this old but am amazed at what im learning reading this thread. thank you never knew oil filters were a option well be fore my time.
Ande
81 GMC c2500
06 Chevy Malibu
80 Olds cutlass


 
leon phelps 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3413
leon phelps
Loc: Croydon Manor, PA
Reg: 06-04-05
05-23-12 04:49 AM - Post#2228871    
    In response to free_bird49221

while filters are needed, I think most contamination problems stemmed from oil with no detergents in them.

the draft tube was a nightmare, sucking in lots of particles.

I only wish they kept filters on the top of engines. makes you want to push the head of the engineer who decided to put them underneath up to the block and make him change one.
Metallica Fuel


 
2blu52 
"13th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 14857

Age: 81
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
05-23-12 05:45 AM - Post#2228893    
    In response to leon phelps

The draft tube itself did not suck particles as the design created a low pressure system behind the pointed tip drawing fumes from the crankcase. The same cannot be said about the vent slots in the rocker arm cover which provided the entry point for air flow and were not filtered.
"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
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