 63BRY
"2nd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 40
Reg: 03-19-11
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05-09-12 07:04 PM - Post#2224320
Recently I have followed the advertisement and pictures with interest provided for the sale of 409 cars. The question I have is, is there a template or a specified distance that the 409 tag should be above or below the fender flags? The pictures of the cars reviewed appear to have the two in contact and up to +/-1/2" apart.
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 Dave64SS
"4th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 1470
Loc: Cypress, TX
Reg: 02-28-09
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05-09-12 07:47 PM - Post#2224335
In response to 63BRY
same with the 327 numbers. me thinks is just the variance of who and where they were added
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1658
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 08-07-07
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05-09-12 09:45 PM - Post#2224372
In response to 63BRY
IIRC, the '62 409 we bought new had the 409 maybe 1/2" below the flags. I'm less familiar with the '63-4's, but I think they are above and very close to the flags. Someone here will probably know the exact dimensions. It is confusing because of sloppy work in many of the clones and cars that are wreck rebuilds, etc.
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 62chevy427
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1499
Loc: laurens sc
Reg: 04-13-06
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05-10-12 07:16 AM - Post#2224424
In response to 63BRY
i would purchase an assembly manual which will give you the dimensions.
56 bel air ((since 2002)
62 impala ss (since 1965)
65 el camino (since 1969)
66 nova (since 1987)
67 malibu convertible (since 1981)
72 el camino ss454 (since 1985)
83 gmc 4wd (since 1991)
95 impala (new)
11 malibu (new) |
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 Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-10-12 08:32 AM - Post#2224446
In response to 63BRY
1963s had the engine badge in two different locations based on the series.
Engine badge location for the Impala and SS was aft of the fender's front wheel opening:
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Chevrolet...
The '63 Bel Air and Biscayne engine badge was in front of the wheel opening:
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Chevrolet...
Richard
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 DonSSDD
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 4661
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
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05-10-12 08:58 AM - Post#2224453
In response to Richard Martin
The repop parts for the emblems include a template for installing them, not sure how correct they are though.
Don
59 El Camino, 62 Bel Air SC, 62 Bel Air SC(sold in Finland is 2011), 63 SWC Vette (sold)
Member #2194 |
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 DOC396
"6th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 545
Loc: ohio
Reg: 06-10-04
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05-10-12 04:23 PM - Post#2224576
In response to Richard Martin
i can't believe i never noticed the emblem placing on 63 Impala was different from Biscayne/Bel air. thanks for that info. doc
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63BRY
"2nd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 40
Reg: 03-19-11
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05-10-12 07:36 PM - Post#2224643
In response to DOC396
Thanks for all the replies. I do not yet own a 409 car but I do think that the bodies/cars coming from the Fisher plant and the assembly lines would have a standard distance specified for the 409 badge and the flags, regardless of the model (wheel well front or back). If I was to purchase a 409 I would be looking at this detail and in the end making a decision that was based on it.
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brucebodyman
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 04-23-12
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05-10-12 08:32 PM - Post#2224661
In response to 63BRY
The 409 car I'm taking to mecum this week has the original holes in the original fenders. Not sure if you can see fender emblems in pics on there site. It's a Saturday car lot s285 the pics have been updated and are actual pics of the car. Just finished it 2weeks ago
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-10-12 11:15 PM - Post#2224717
In response to brucebodyman
"original close ratio 4-speed"
"original 3.08 posi rear end"
Chevrolet didn't build them that way. 409s ordered with 3.08:1 rear axle gears were only available with the wide ratio (2.56 1st gear) 4-speed transmission. 409s ordered with the close ratio (2.20 1st gear) 4-speed came standard with 3.36 rear axle gears. There were optional rear axle gear ratios with the close ratio 4-speed but the 3.08 was not one of them.
http://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/chevy/64chev y/bil...
Richard
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1878
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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05-11-12 06:02 AM - Post#2224764
In response to brucebodyman
Factory fender badges have the holes punched for the stud in a perfect circle. Sometimes you can see the back of the fender where somebody has added the emblems or numbers and drilled the holes.
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brucebodyman
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 04-23-12
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05-11-12 07:36 AM - Post#2224788
In response to Richard Martin
I beg to differ with you on the gear ratio. I not only have the window sticker showing it built that way but the original owner has verified it also and he will be at auction with car
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-11-12 08:08 AM - Post#2224799
In response to brucebodyman
"I not only have the window sticker"
I backed up my claim with a copy of Chevrolet printed info.
How about you do the same. Let's see the window sticker. btw reproduction window stickers don't count.
Richard
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ARKAR
Contributor
Posts: 580
Loc: Arkansas
Reg: 01-26-09
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05-11-12 10:04 AM - Post#2224831
In response to Richard Martin
My Dad's '64 2x4 409 had the close ratio Muncie. I'm pretty sure it had a 3.08 gear rear from what he told me. I have the invoice that shows the tranny but not the rear ratio.
Not sure that pic is showing up so here's a link:
http://s803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320/ARKAR_ph o...
Keith
Edited by ARKAR on 05-11-12 10:11 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-11-12 10:29 AM - Post#2224840
In response to ARKAR
In the 60's I worked at my Uncle's Chevy dealership. I actually ordered my 409 myself. I know what was and what wasn't with these cars. If I'm incorrect than the Chevy printed information is also incorrect.
So far no one has actually proven my and/or Chevy info is incorrect.
If I'm wrong please show me the proof.
**Unsubstantiated claims are not proof**
The 1964 Chevrolet Heritage website. Takes a few seconds to load....than click on the BLUE DOWN ARROW to start. Scroll down to the Engine/Transmission/gear ratios..."POWER TEAM COMBINATION" page:
http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archiv...
Richard
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ARKAR
Contributor
Posts: 580
Loc: Arkansas
Reg: 01-26-09
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05-11-12 11:30 AM - Post#2224860
In response to Richard Martin
Not arguing with you at all, wouldn't even think about it. You and Verne are two of the most knowledable guys here. Just was posting what Dad had told me. I think I can find out what ratio was in his car and will post it. He passed away in 2004 so I can't ask him now, but he might have been wrong. He broke his original ring and pinion and I think it is out at my Mom's stashed in another car. I'll look for it. I need to find it anyway, would like to put it back in the car when I restore it. He bought another one and stuck it in the car when he busted his. Thank you for the insight. Always like reading this info.
Keith
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-11-12 12:05 PM - Post#2224866
In response to ARKAR
I apoligize to those that feel I came on too strong. I think people should believe whatever they want to. It's just that I base my opinions on actual evidence, facts, experience and the manufacturers specifications which on occassion may be incorrect if you don't have the latest update. As I said before, I actually worked for a dealership and ordered some of these cars when they they were new. There was a good reason why Chevy didn't build 409/425s with the close ratio (2.20 low gear) 4-speed transmission and 3.08 rear ends. Think about it.
For 1964 the 409/400 and 409/425 had a new camshaft which was actually the 1963 Z11 427 racing cam. For whatever reason Chevrolet kept the same 1963 horsepower ratings. The new cam, # 3837736, had .557/.557 lift and 325/325 duration. That's a lot of cam (back in '64) for a street engine.
Richard
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ARKAR
Contributor
Posts: 580
Loc: Arkansas
Reg: 01-26-09
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05-11-12 12:39 PM - Post#2224872
In response to Richard Martin
Dad told me he ordered his car with the close ratio because he wanted to buy a 4.11 or 4.56 gear "pumpkin" to swap out (whenever he wanted to streetrace) with the taller gear that came in the car. But he wanted top end so he specified the tall rear from the factory. He told me the car would almost peg the speedo(120 mph) in second gear. Several folks that rode in the car vouched for that claim. He never did buy a lower gear rear. Told me that anyone could beat the car out of the hole but about 30mph the old 409 really came alive!
Keith
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ARKAR
Contributor
Posts: 580
Loc: Arkansas
Reg: 01-26-09
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05-11-12 01:00 PM - Post#2224880
In response to ARKAR
I can post some pics with measurements of the emblems on my Dad's car in a few days.
Keith
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brucebodyman
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 04-23-12
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05-11-12 03:48 PM - Post#2224928
In response to Richard Martin
I dont want to argue either. I just restored the car for the owner and am going by the paperwork I saw and the conversation I had with the original owner when he was here about a month ago he ordered the car new. I certainly don't know a lot about these cars that's why I come here. If any of you are going to be at Mecum auction next week stop by and look at car.
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-11-12 04:51 PM - Post#2224947
In response to brucebodyman
The car looks GREAT!!
Hope the owner gets what he is looking for.
Richard
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Mad Joe
Contributor
Posts: 391
Loc: Wichita Falls, Tx.
Reg: 05-09-07
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05-11-12 05:05 PM - Post#2224951
In response to brucebodyman
Bruce, would you please report back with the auction results for this car? Thanks
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brucebodyman
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 04-23-12
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05-11-12 08:01 PM - Post#2225005
In response to Mad Joe
I'll post from hotel sat the 19th that's when it hoes across block
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1658
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 08-07-07
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05-13-12 12:28 AM - Post#2225325
In response to Richard Martin
As I understood it, in '64 the low HP 409 came with the wide ratio Muncie and 3.08's. The higher HP 409's could be bought with the wide ratio and 3:08's or the close ratio Muncie with 3:36's and it was up to the owner to choose.
I don't remember what our '62 came with originally, but I am pretty sure it was wide ratio T-10 but we changed the rear to 4.56's for racing pretty quick and I don't remember what was on it originally.
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
Posts: 4315
Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
Reg: 06-12-03
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05-13-12 01:23 AM - Post#2225330
In response to fbi9c1
The rear axle gear ratios for 1964 full-size Chevrolets with a 4-speed transmission are listed in the "CHEVROLET POWER TEAMS FOR 1964" chart at the bottom of the following brochure page and they are correct. The info is so clear even I can understand it.
It's becoming commonplace that many want to change the way things really were and rewrite facts and change history to the way they want it to be.
Rear axle ratios:
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Chevrolet...
Richard
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64ss409
Senior Member
Posts: 602
Loc: Montana
Reg: 12-04-02
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05-13-12 05:37 AM - Post#2225367
In response to fbi9c1
As I understood it, in '64 the low HP 409 came with the wide ratio Muncie and 3.08's.
I ordered a new 64 SS, 340/4spd and still have it. The only ratio available was 3.36 and the Muncie was only available in the wide ratio. I tried to order a different rear, but could not.
Ron
1964 SS 409/340 4 spd, bought new Oct '63
1964 Biscayne-will have 409
1962 SS convertible 4 spd 327
1971 K10 454
99 Silverado Z11
1998 C5 convertible, torch red black top |
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1658
Loc: Los Angeles
Reg: 08-07-07
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05-14-12 10:04 AM - Post#2225805
In response to 64ss409
Yes, you and Richard are correct. I really didn't follow 63 and 4 full size much and apparently my memory isn't what it used to be 
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Sting Ray
"7th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2560
Loc: Drag City, California
Reg: 02-19-05
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05-15-12 09:43 AM - Post#2226166
In response to fbi9c1
Removeable hardtop! That's just nuts, never heard of one before. We had a new '64 Imp convertible, 283 three on the tree.
Bleeds Chevy Orange
1957 Chevy 150, 3-spd
1964 Corvette two top convert, 4-spd
1965 Pontiac GTO hrdtp, tri-power, 4-spd, 4.11's
1967 El Camino, 427, 4-spd
2009 Corvette coupe, triple black, 436 hp, 6-spd
www.cardomain.co |
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63BRY
"2nd Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 40
Reg: 03-19-11
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05-17-12 08:36 PM - Post#2227026
In response to ARKAR
You appear to be the last one on topic and would appreciate any pictures of original flag and the 409 badge. The flag dimensions are known and I can use that to closely estimate the correct separation/ distance between the two.
Thanks
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ARKAR
Contributor
Posts: 580
Loc: Arkansas
Reg: 01-26-09
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05-18-12 03:58 AM - Post#2227073
In response to 63BRY
Sorry, had to put in a lot if hours at work lately. I will post some pics today. I haven't forgot about you guys, it's just that I work 12 hour shifts. I have the front fenders of a '63 409 car at my Mom's, I'll try to get some pics of those with a ruler next to them too. Stay tuned.
Keith
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